A quick question, and one that may have an embarrassingly straightforward answer: why no red-dot laser sight on melta weapons?

I suppose mechanically, they're good enough as they are. In-universe, they're constructed of arcane alloys that can withstand the kind of temperature and stresses placed on them, but an attachment wouldn't be... maybe? That's the best I've come up with.

Thoughts?

My first is: tell the Explorator I want a RDLS on my melta pistol and wait until he makes it happen.

I don't think melta weapons are precision-based enough for a red dot to work. These things are supposed to melt tanks, not perform surgery.

Cifer said:

I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't find it wholly satisfactory. In practice, to hit said tank, you still need to make a BS check, and a RDLS would contribute a valuable +10 towards hitting the tank rather than, say, your Arch Militant charging into combat a little to the right.

Most tanks are going to be 2-3 size categories larger than a person so they will automatically grant a +20-30 to hit due to their size. Adding a RDLS won't help that much.

If you feel that your Melta user needs additional bonuses, cut out one of their eyes and replace it with a targeter that will work with their Melta.

Okay, I do see where you're going with the tank thing, but pistol weaponry (even melta-flavoured) is still going to be more geared towards personal combat, and that is how I intend to use it. Having just tangled with Chaos Marines, I'm keen to up the ante a little for future shenanigans. +10 for a Hulking target is all well and good, but if your Ballistic Skill is in the region of 35, you're still hitting less than half the time. And I promise you the Chaos Marine (or other fearsome enemy) is going to be busily chewing your face off more than half the time in the interim.

I can't accept the weapon class's general usage as a reason why you couldn't add certain refinements to a pistol within it. That isn't to say there's not a perfectly good reason, I'm just not convinced that's it.

Possabilities:

1) meltas range is so short red dots are superfluouse
2) Gun gets to hot. Sights are damaged, barrels warp and throw off calibration
3) I always thought meltas shot a cone of heat, and melta pistols shot a tighter cone. At least that is how the Ciaphas Cain books describe it. Wouldn't help much in that situation
4) Omnissah said so

Melta's may just be too inaccurate to benefit from the Red Dot. Regardless, I still say scoop out a players eye just for good measure.

I could buy that they're fundamentally somewhat area-effect and inaccurate (though in aiming the darn thing, I still think a laser sight would help... but you could add in the issue of heat for good measure). I still think I'll hand it off to the Explorator and add it to his List Of Unreasonable Things The Rogue Trader Wants.

Speaking of which, no one is scooping out the Rogue Trader's eye. I can't see him taking kindly to it. And, Emperor's Holy Sock Drawer, the man has a melta! And a digi-melta! And he might hit with one of them.

Niqvah said:

Remember, if the red dot is not adding to their sense of aiming more than just...aiming it isn't giving a bonus.
Did that make sense?

Imagine you are aiming at a box 5 foot away with some nerf gun. Now add a red dot. Do you really think their accuracy is going to go up significantly? The range and innacuracy mean that a site of any sort don't significantly add to your natural ability to aim a gun.

So I would say even if you CAN add a red dot, it just isn't really doing that much. Having a red light on something only makes it easier to hit something if the gun shoots a small projectile, if the projectile moves predictably, and if the target is far enough away that your natural aiming ability is insufficient.

riplikash said:

That makes a certain amount of sense. Though it can't be considered desirable to have to rely solely on one's Ballistic Skill. I might have to hire some more people to take care of such things, freeing me up to dive heroically into close combat.

Or maybe just have the Arch Militant armed with a meltagun so that, should I ever miss a target, he can hastily shoot it and then I can claim the kill.

Niqvah said:

If a characters BS is that low, they should stick to weapons with semi or fully automatic fire.

Bilateralrope said:

Perhaps, but those sorts of weapons don't offer the kind of damage I require at this point. Also, they would likely require Elite Advances for a Rogue Trader, whereas one begins with universal pistol training.

Then it would seem that your RT is simply a mediocre shot who either needs to eschew high damage in favour of things that allow the damage to actually hit, put loads and loads of XP into his shooting, leave the shooting to someone more competent in the field or take a full action aim before taking the shot.

We can't all be award winning marksmen.

Besides, both the bolt pistol and plasma pistol offers semi auto and your choice of red dot or even auto-targeter. Melta isn't the only game in town when it comes do dealing damage. The RT career is mostly about melee anyway, get a powerfist and Bob's your uncle.

Niqvah said:

Get a Plasma or Bolt pistol. To deal with small clips either get yourself an ammo backpack (the Ascension one is best) or get multiple pistols + quick draw (rank 2). Plasma weapons can use a red dot with maximal mode and a plasma pistol firing on maximal will have 4 times the range of an inferno pistol, while dealing nearly the same damage.

>> I'm keen to up the ante a little for future shenanigans. +10 for a Hulking target is all well and good, but if your Ballistic Skill is in the region of 35, you're still hitting less than half the time.

35 BS

+ 10 for hulking

+ 10 for half action aim

That brings us to 55, which is more than half.

I can't help but feel people have got sidetracked from the original question. This isn't about a character's Ballistic Skill or chosen weapon loadout (the RT in question doesn't actually have 35 BS). I just threw some scenarios out there for those who wanted justification for desiring a +10 to hit. It doesn't have to be for a RT, or perhaps even this game; it could equally be a higher-level DH question.

At any rate, I think, staying with the quirks of the weapon, it's not unreasonable to assume attachments don't work with it as readily as they would other weapons. It offers a rare damage profile, so it sort of goes with the territory that it has other special features, not all of which will be as good.

Maybe a MIU could work to up the possibility of hitting with a meltagun?

Looking at the rules for the RDLS, the weapons you can and can't stick it on doesn't make much sense. For example:

- Despite needle weapons being accurate enough to qualify for that trait, and propelling their projectile with a laser (meaning that only a las weapon will match the path of RDLS beam better), you aren't allowed to attach a RDLS to one of them.

- A bow is a basic primitive weapon, meaning that it qualifies for a RDLS. But the path of an arrow is a very noticeable arc, meaning it should be useless to attach one. Come to think of it, none of the primitive weapons listed in either core rulebook sound like they would work well with a RDLS.

I haven't seen any good reason as to why a melta should be excluded.

These are the best reasons so far, but they raise some questions:

1) meltas range is so short red dots are superfluouse

If that was the case, why can other weapons still make use of one all the way down to point blank range ?

You have to get into melee for one to stop working.

2) Gun gets to hot. Sights are damaged, barrels warp and throw off calibration

If that was the case, wouldn't it also screw up any attempts to aim a melta ?

Yet there is nNo melta has the inaccurate trait.

3) I always thought meltas shot a cone of heat, and melta pistols shot a tighter cone. At least that is how the Ciaphas Cain books describe it. Wouldn't help much in that situation

Knowing where the center of the cone will be before you pull the trigger is still useful if your weapon only gives of a short burst. Which is why a RDLS is useful with shotguns.

If you were using the Dawn of War interpretation for meltas (a continuous beam) then a RDLS would be useless because the beam makes it quite clear where you are aiming.

4) Omnissah said so

What about heriteks who stick them together anyway ?

Personally I'd suggest houseruling it so you can stick a RDLS on any non-primitive (the weapon group, not the damage quality) pistol or basic weapon that does not have the inaccurate or flame qualities. The restrictions in the RAW are just restrictions the Ad-mech have made.