Since 2 yrs ago or so, since i got into 'hobby' gaming, I've been looking for a series of 2 or more games that can be combined into a massive gaming experience, taking up to a weekend to complete.

Should be good for up to 4 players, but has to be good with 2 as well.

One where non-active downtime is OK, but not really frequent.

Where the games tie into one another - doing well in one helps in the other.

I have read a lot about DungeonQuest & have ordered it. I however do not know much about Runebound. Does Runebound lend itself to having Dungeonquest as a side-game without too much of changing core rules? Such as:

Maybe Dragonfire Dungeon accessed by a space on the Runebound map, maybe as a quest?

Where it's not required to play, but if you do (and come out alive!) the treasures along w/ experience you get help you immensly in Runebound? COuld the gold & experience earned in DQ be transferred easily to RB's system to purchase things?

How long do turns represent in Runebound? (1day like in DQ or longer?) How long do turns actually usually take in real-time in RB?

Is it possible to lead a party instead of one unit, so that if you lose one guy to the Dungeon, it isn't an instant loss of RB?

Artemus Maximus said:

You certainly could do that with these two games. Obviously it would require some measure of house ruling because they don't do this by design, but I'm sure you knew that. You could easily make some kind of token for Dragonfire Dungeon and drop it on any hex of the Runebound map and say "if you end here, you may enter the Dungeon, go play a side game of DQ."

Runebound also has "Encounter Gems" of various colours representing different difficulties of challenges scattered across the map. If you were so inclined (and don't have a problem with Dragonfire Dungeon moving around randomly) you could also make a few homebrew challenge cards that say "You have found an entrance to Dragonfire Dungeon! Go play a side-game of DQ." You could even specify an amount of loot you "need" to get inside the dungeon before coming out, and increase that value for different coloured encounters.

Since each player can play DQ solo, this could be a good way to kill time between turns in RB. Of course, I doubt it will take THAT long to come back around anyway.

Artemus Maximus said:

This part could be tricky. I don't own DQ yet and haven't had a good look at the loot cards, so I'm not sure if they have specific treasure items in DQ or not. If they do, you could theoretically allow the player to root through the RB item deck to find the same item when he comes out of the dungeon (the good thing about these two games being set in the same game universe is that FFG has an established habit of recycling the same items into each game with quasi-similar abilities). Could be problematic if another player already has that item from the RB deck though.

I'm also not sure how Gold and XP work in DQ, but based on the few DQ loot cards I have seen, it looks like money is a lot more plentiful in there than in Runebound. An expensive item in RB costs 7-10 gold, by contrast DQ loot cards seem to be valued in multiples of 100. I suppose you could divide by 100 to determine how much RB gold you walk out with, or something.

Artemus Maximus said:

As I understand it, the entire game of DQ takes 1 day, not each turn. The game ends when the sun sets. Length of time per turn in RB is somewhat abstract. It could be one day per turn or one week per turn. It's probably safe to assume that a jaunt through Dragonfire Dungeon could be completed in a single turn's Adventure Phase, though.

In real-time, a turn of RB takes about 3-5 minutes, tops. If you have a large number of players (say 4+) that can add up to a lot of downtime between your first turn and your second, though. Depending on how quickly you die on average in DQ, it could be a good way to kill time while waiting, or it could end up delaying RB even further if you're not quite done in DQ by the time your turn comes back around. It'd be hard to answer that one without sitting down to play a few games of DQ.

Artemus Maximus said:

Yes and no. RB is focused on a single hero questing about Terrinoth, however, that hero can accumulate allies and familiars as he goes. In theory you could come up with some kind of house rule to replace allies with other heroes (there are certainly enough to go around - I think the count was somewhere around 40 heroes with all expansions and promos, and then there's homebrew heroes out there to boot.) Or you could just play multiple heroes per player, although that would effectively reduce downtime between each of "your" turns and make the whole DQ side-game that much more a distraction.

Alternatively, you could say a hero killed in DQ is "knocked out" in RB (heroes in RB never actually die, they just get "knocked out" and the monsters are apparently kind enough to drop their unconscious bodies off at the nearest town after having defeated them in honorable combat, or something =P)

Your idea of combining the games could probably be done, if you're of a mind to do so (and it sounds like you are.) I'm sure some people would pish-tosh the idea, saying that RB is long enough already, but it doesn't sound like you're worried about burning an entire day or more on this project. =)

PS: If you want to combine these games, you'll also have to deal with making DQ cards for the RB heroes. Unless the 6 that come with DQ are enough for you, I suppose. I'm sure it won't be too long before some enterprising DQ fan makes homebrew versions of all the other heroes in the Terrinoth games, though, so if you don't want to do this yourself, just keep an eye on BGG.

I get the impluse to want to combine games, and certainly you should have fun and home-brew some rules. The 2 major issues to tackle (in my view):

1- How does success at Runebound effect the players starting status as they enter DQ?

If a player is "ahead" of the others in Runebound (either by purchasing a strong item or leveling up more quickly) how will you account for that strength at the beginning of the DQ game? If that player gets no advantage for the good fortune he's had so far, why would he want to enter the DQ and risk his position?

2- How does success in DQ effect the return to Runebound?

You need to homebrew loot and experience rules so that the winner of DQ gets some concrete reward in Runebound that is at least somewhat balanced to gameplay.

A quick rule I can think of off the top of my head: Play DQ first. Winner gets to chose starting with either 3 extra gold (doubling their starting Runebound money) or with a weapon or armor of their choice that costs 4 or less gold. I know its pretty simplistic but its an example of how you can combine the playing experience without making the gameplay of either game totally unbalanced.

TYVM Steve-O & Miles601! LOVE the hospitable ppl here on the FFG forums

after reading your replies & the rules to RB, i've decided to get Runebound 2e & Sands of Al-Kalim asap.

The goal is to incorporate into regular RB (in Terrinoth) as optional adventure with big both great rewards & danger, and into Sands as the main goal to win.

MIles-i've thought about those 2 elements a lot. I've come up with 2 preliminary ideas:

<A>

Using regular Runebound map, 2 ed. stuff (story) and maybe some of the packs added if they have some really expensive items in them.

Entering Dragonfire Dungeon is meant to be a quick way to get riches & experience in this version.

-one tile on the map is the entrance to the dungeon. it can be visited during your turn. you must start your turn on it to enter and spend your entire turn there. Hero must be full health (wouldnt ever dare enter the deadly Dungeon already wounded!). Heroes can enter any turn.

-in order to cut down time, Hero must have a corresponding DQ card (so only 6 heros can be used so far, until others are made) and noting is converted - skills in the open air don't apply while in the environment of the dungeon! [maybe w/ a weapon, combat can be modified] [if healing potions exist in RB, maybe they can be taken down to work as their equivalents in DQ]

-DQ played as normal except possibly altering combat to reflect a special weapon, experience points gained from each defeated monster [and successful test?], maybe based off a table that has to be created, tracked by tokens while inside dungeon. Collect One DQ Rune card at random for each RB Rune card Hero possesses.

-Use DQ optional rules: Live To Fight Another Day, Hero vs Hero combat (although unlikely itl be used, sounds like a good option to have here)

-if your Hero has an Ally, they are only knocked out in the Dungeon (follow RB rules for knocked out). Hero enters dungeon with a rope tied to him - if he is knocked out [and not trapped/?] then Ally can enter to find him & rescue him, AS LONG AS there is at least half of the day remaining (on the DQ sun timer).

-upon exiting dungeon consciously, convert: wounds, experience, gold. (wounds probably easiest just to transfer same ratio to RB card, rounding down. experience has to be figured out numericly to coincide w/ RB exp. maybe making a simple table for DQ events and their exp., DQ gold sounds like has to be simply divided by 10 or 100). [have to look further into converting items, but want to avoid it]

In this variant, the dungeon is an optional quick little side adventure and part of the journey. This means most of the time when a Hero enters, it's a short game, probably under 10 min if already set up - try to grab some loot & exit and not risk losing progress in the RB main game. But if they want to try for the treasure room, it would be rare enough that the other player(s) would probably want to watch (and can control monsters per DQ rules). With great reward comes great peril I think here it wouldn't take away too much from the main RB game, but maybe add some suspense? especially if someone is behind, they could enter the dungeon as a desperate attempt to try to catch up quickly...

<B>

Using Sands of Al-Kalim map, and possibly some expansions that have more powerful weapons.

In order to become the 100th Immortal in the Tales of Al-Kalim, your Hero must complete a 5th Legendary Quest (maybe as a Legendary Location): enter Dragonfire Dungeon, steal loot from the dragon's lair and escape alive to tell about it!

-one tile on the map is the entrance to the dungeon. it should be double-sided (sand/revealed) as entrance is not always possible as the sands often cover its entrance [dictated perhaps by the sandstorm or other timing].

-heroes can enter the dungeon before the other quests are completed, but completing the quests first gives a benefit to the hero in DQ.

-if entering dungeon and hero has not started turn on the dungeon tile, use DQ optional rule: Late Start. (if not only hero in dungeon, enters when timer gets to that spot rolled)

-before entering, convert total for RB attributes to DQ attributes and add modifier tokens to DQ card, if above or below normal: (RB health -> DQ health, DQ strength & armor should be able to be increased somehow by a formula as well from modifiers gained in RB, not sure how yet. Also, an increase in one of the 3 damages can be accounted for somehow in DQ combat cards...).

-If a Legendary Rune has been crafted via Legendary Rune quest, then & only then can a Hero [&] use a Rune card in dungeon.

-Heroes can only exit dungeon if they've acquired some loot from the dragon's lair as that is their purpose for entering!

-use DQ optional rules: Live to Fight Another Day (escaping combat), Tower Power, Hero vs. Hero combat.

-if killed in dungeon and Hero has entered Dungeon with a legendary Ally at his side, the Ally saves the hero at the last moment before death. The Legendary Ally, using maybe always a universal Legendary Ally stat card, must carry the Hero out of the dungeon before the doors close in order to be keep playing. If successful, treat as knocked out Hero per RB:SoAK rules. If hero & Leg. Ally are trapped or don't make it out alive, game over!

-upon exiting consciously, convert: health, gold, experience, [ items ]. adjust stamina to maximum.

In this version, the dungeon is conversely the climax, rather than a short point in the journey. It should be entered less frequently by being available once every X turns, creating more of a chance that more than one hero will be entering at a time. This helps allow the dungeon to be played to its full extent, creating longer games. Thusly, a game of RB: Sands will take a very long time to complete and is broken up by games of Dungeonquest. Heroes can either try their luck early on when they have nothing to lose with the risk of wasting presiouc time, or wait until their character has been built up to have a better chance, but risk losing more. Becoming the 100th Immortal should be a rare and big accomplishment in this version

Wow you put a lot of thought into those rules already. I gave them a quick read through, going to have to consider them even more carefully soon.

I hope you have a gaming group that is up for trying this. If you all have the time to devote I'm sure it will be a good experience. The more you playtest the house rules the more you can adjust them for balance and enjoyment. Please post results of any playtesting you do here.

I think i prefer to just keep the games seperate, but if you have good success I'll give the rules you come up with a chance some time.

If the rp portion of the experience isn't that necessary to you, or it doesn't have to be an rpg-lite type of game, a tactics game that can be a blast, all parts integrated, and TAKE ALL WEEKEND or more, than I'd say you should look into Descent. It's a squad tactics game where a group of players have to cooperate against one other player, in a game that ranges across the same area as Runebound. You would need at a minimum, the base game and the Road to Legend or Sea of Blood expansion pack, but all the others are integrated into it as well giving you a monster experience.

It's more of a squad based tactics game than RPG lite though.

ty greylord

we did consider Descent (including most recent additions).

While it certainly does sound promising to our goals (& FUN to say the least - we love tactical miniature games) it ultimately wasnt enough.

I figure that any game, no matter the ornateness of its components, eventually is abstracted by your brain and your mind processes it like such. The actual theme, fluff whatever you want to call the game's unique feel is still present but secondary.

So even though you get out of dungeons in Descent, the mechanics are still the same from expansion to expansion; same game.

The change of scenery or a story or slight rules additions helps keep interest in that abstraction over time, but not as long our group would like i guess

So with two games - where the change of scenery & existence of a story (even if really simple) COMBINED and integrated in two different games allows a change in the actual abstraction, allowing each time you return to the other for it to be fresh again.

so we're thinking it'll go like

"RUNEBOUND! ...Runebound ... runebound ... dungeonquest? Dungeonqest ... DUNGEONQUEST! THANK GOD - RUNEBOUND! ... runebound ...[repeat]"

vs

"RUNEBOUND! ... Runebound ... runebound ... runebound .... [etc]" [or Descent]

But i hate to mess with any game's rules, so first to play Runebound a bunch as written

I get what you are saying for the most part but how would that differ from just playing a game of runebound, finishing, then starting a game of dungeonquest? Keep track of winners or the games. Person that ends the weekend having won the least amount of games pays for pizza or something.