Hi, Me and my group of friends have been playing RPGs for a while. I am usually a player, but have run a few adventures and love doing it. However, I am tired of the DnD system and ready to find something a little different to give our GM a break once in a while and run my own adventures. I am looking for a system and setting right now and have read a few things about WFR that make it sound like a good idea. But I was wondering if you guys could help me out?

First, the expense is not the problem.

Here are some likes/dislikes/points about me and my groups roleplaying game style stuff to take into consideration and see if WHFR would work.

*I don't mind tons of rules, but I hate getting bogged down and having to look up specifics in a book where it takes a significant chunk of time away from the game.

* Tracking- 4th edition dnd requires WAY too much tracking, and the keeping up with all these 200 things during a battle becomes more burdensome and takes away the fun of the battle, I like for the players and GM to be able to do what they need/want to do rather quickly without having to check 20 things before they can finish their turn.

* Too many rules(misleading?)- rules are fine "see #1" but i don't like having the feeling that the rules are running everything instead of me.

* My group enjoys a good story, however, we don't really role play too much. We have more of a "kick down the door" style.

* I do enjoy the WH setting as I used to play the miniatures war game, so the setting is absolutely not a problem.

Also, how does the range and movement work in the combat system (I am getting tired of movement in squares).
Can you give me any tips on why WHR would be good for my group?

If you have played any other RPG's that you think I should look into, just let me know. Your thoughts and input would be great!

Oh, and to add...

If I did decide to purchase WHR3e, what product(s) would be essential to start off correctly? ( 1 GM and 2[maybe 3 ]players).

Is just the core set fine? or is there a smaller set that would work?

Also any websites or detailed reviews that could help me would be nice also.

I think this thread can help you, at least a little: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=149&efcid=3&efidt=368024

Other than that, find it difficult to answer to your questions with precise answers. It is very hard to say if some game finds its way into someone particular liking. Specialy such a strange and different RPG as WHFR.

Have you seen the videos in the support part of Warhammer's FFG page?

I can tell you a little about the differences WHFR 3ed has brought. That must be tons of better reviews on this forum if you look for them.

So, 3e brings a lot of contents that makes it look almost like a board game. That made me very aprehensive at first (I've been playing Warhammer since 2e, not for long, I must say, and I loved it because it has such wonderful simple rules, with great ideas like a lot of careers instead of classes, and I was completely tired of DnD 3.5 - I never even read 4ed, and I'm not going to).

Then I understood all these components (varied cards, tokens, special dices...) came trying to bring the game mechanics in a full integration with the story. It seems to me you have good options: you can play it basing your focus on the mechanics, describing things just a little, or you can envolve every mechanic with a description, and then you won't need to argue or explain almost anything about your intentions in a Mechanic Language. That is because the way 3e is organized make the mechanics explained and sustained by components that are with everyone, not just with the GM.

For example, if a player wnats his character to make an action, he can choose one of the card actions his character has (they are suficiently opened to be described with some freedom, like "Reckless Attack", that can be an attack made recklesly in a variaty of ways). So, the Action Cards describe different effects for different degrees of success, so the player can see what he just rolled and describe directly what happened, and the GM adds with side effects.

The dice work just great! You've got such a complex roll (simple to organize) that it tells you not just if you could do it or not, but also how well it was done and also side effects. Like, you can achieve success but with bad things happening, or fail but gain some advantage nonetheless. That is because the dice system works with qualitative symbols, and integrates in the dice pool the character's ability, the difficulty (the difficulty of an action is actualy a die), circumstances that help the achievement of success and situations that makes the action more complicated. It's great, really.

So, I do think it's an amazing system. Maybe you've got to insist for more than just one session (my first impression was kind of a downer, because it seemed to me that the mechanics required too much attention, but now I see it was just requiring getting the hold of them), as I did. The rules in the rulebook aren't very well organized and inspire some doubts, but there is a FAQ that sure helps and a lot of topics in this forum. Once you get it, probably there won't be any more doubts, and I don't think you'll need to revise things so often. Plus FFG is releasing hard cover books that will (expectetly) explain things better and organize the materials so far. The HC books will also bring ways to play 3e with less or no components (not that you can't adapt it as a lot of people has if you find it more pleasant).

I think the best way to start is still the Core Box. There is a rather long topic about wheter Core Box is still the best option for starters, it is kinda based on money but it expands the discussion. Take a look at it!

Oh, I almost forgot: about the movement system. It is really quite subjective, depending on description. There isn't any precise distance measurement, but something like range increments: Engaged, Close, Medium Range, Long and Extreme. That says if your range weapon will be able to get to the target, and how many manouvres a character will need to get to the other. It is simple, works well, leaves a lot of room for imagination and creativity, and there is a visual way to reference how things are in a combat (using stand-ups) that, in my experience, don't try to represent exact positions, just show the distances (if some character is engaged with other or just near - Close to - the other). I find it a beauty because I always had problems with miniatures stealing the freedom to imagine a scene. I actually thought I was going to discard the Stand Ups right away, but now I'm thinking they had come to stay.

So, tell me: have I been able to help a little?

Cheers!

Check this one also: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=165&efcid=3&efidt=353148

*I don't mind tons of rules, but I hate getting bogged down and having to look up specifics in a book where it takes a significant chunk of time away from the game.

This is a strong and weak point of WFRP3e in my opinion. A lot of the rules (all of the rules for talents and actions, critical wounds, insanities, mutations, temporary conditions) are on cards that the player keeps. This means that the players almost never needs to reference the rulebook during play. However, for the things that are not on cards there is some look-up time to consider, while I don't think the rulebooks are that terrible they do take a some time to find stuff in. Using the living index (available as a pdf) make it pretty fast to look up stuff though, and there are some excellent playermade cheat sheets around that will help a great deal. All in all I think the system seems to fit what you're after.

* Tracking- 4th edition dnd requires WAY too much tracking, and the keeping up with all these 200 things during a battle becomes more burdensome and takes away the fun of the battle, I like for the players and GM to be able to do what they need/want to do rather quickly without having to check 20 things before they can finish their turn.

There is quite a lot of tracking going on. Actions have recharge that limits how often you can use them and so does some talents. Fatigue and stress affect how well you can use your skills and there are conditions and actions that have sustained effects. Here is where the components shine in my opinion. The tracking is soo much easier when you have physical tokens and cards that represent the different things. In my experience the physical components make it very quick and easy to check up on modifiers and so on for both players and the GM. Of course, if you really dislike the tracking stuff you can just house rule them away. If your players avoid powergaming you could easily just scrap the recharge rules for example. It may take some time getting used to the cards and tokens, but once you've learnt I think these things flow really well.

* Too many rules(misleading?)- rules are fine "see #1" but i don't like having the feeling that the rules are running everything instead of me.

WFRP3e is a very free system in that respect. I think the design focus is on creating a solid system (with the dice mechanic being a core thing) but not really providing much in the way of detailed rules. The exception is the combat rules which are pretty detailed, while still leaving opportunities for the players GM to do whatever they want (the power of yes is another design concept, the action card "Perform a stunt" is the perfect example of this).

* My group enjoys a good story, however, we don't really role play too much. We have more of a "kick down the door" style.

I think there is a focus on story/narration in WFRP3e, but I think it's up to the group how you want to play things. You can play like that in WFRP3e, sure, but I'd say you can play like that in any roleplaying system.

If you have played any other RPG's that you think I should look into, just let me know. Your thoughts and input would be great!

If you want a more abstract system when it comes to combat (or any conflict really) I heartily recommend Mouse Guard. It's also very focused on telling a story and avoids almost all of the tracking that is common in more traditional RPGs. It still has tactical conflict resolution though, just not in the standard way of "first round- I swing my sword, second round - I move 3 squares to the left". It is set in a very specific setting though (you play talking mice that try to make they way through a hostile world of weasels, rats and bad weather), and based on comic book series.

gruntl, you were so much more to the point than I did. :]

about alternative systems, I always talk about The Window, which also has an RPG manifest that I find amazing.

you can find it here: www.mimgames.com

cheers!

Here is another thing to consider:

No other RPG game has as much fan based support materiale as Warhammer has. Its undeniable and incredible. Strong points for any game if you ask me.

About the abstract range increment WFRP are using, they also use location cards to help visualize where your stand ups are, like "the old dirt road", "forest glade", rural building etc. With them you can canvas a beautiful image of the party`s surrondings right on the table. Plus the location cards have special rules that you can apply.

Good gaming

*I don't mind tons of rules, but I hate getting bogged down and having to look up specifics in a book where it takes a significant chunk of time away from the game.

The major part of learning this game is learning to read the new dice. Once you have that, everything becomes simple. You never have to look up 'penalties' and such. If something bad is there? Add a misfortune (black) die to the pool. Player drunk? On the ground? With a broken weapon? Here have 3 black dice. Roll em. Oh you surprised them jumping out of the trees? Well they're startled, and you have a better chance of a good hit. Here's an extra (challenge) die, and two fortune (white) dice for that surprise opening you found. Roll em.

Its flexible. The power is in the hands of the GM and the players.

* Tracking- 4th edition dnd requires WAY too much tracking, and the keeping up with all these 200 things during a battle becomes more burdensome and takes away the fun of the battle, I like for the players and GM to be able to do what they need/want to do rather quickly without having to check 20 things before they can finish their turn.

I agree with the previous poster that there is a fair bit of tracking, but the 'bits' help immensly. The only things you really track are wounds, stress/fatigue and recharge tokens. With the cards set in front of you this is actually pretty easy to visualize. You won't need a play-mat, and are unlikely to have a 1 foot fig sitting on alea magnetic markers with 15 conditions, check for recharge, powers etc. For NPCs it's mostly just 'Is a power up? Yes? Use it'. It'll be back in a few turns.

* Too many rules(misleading?)- rules are fine "see #1" but i don't like having the feeling that the rules are running everything instead of me.

Well the rules are somewhat loose, but its about the GM and about the power of saying 'YES'.

EX: In 4th edition, lets say you're searching a 'haunted' house and you see a cultist run. Well you run after him. You both have a base move of six. You're both double moving and running. Gets to be a standoff, then you get into an argument about athletics skill checks and seeing how to RP running him down, etc etc etc.

In WFR the player would say: "Hey, I want to run up the staircase, jump, swing across on the chandeleer, and drop onto him." Well in 4th you'd have to look up rules and argue. In WFR you say: "Ok, that sounds pretty awesome. Lets make it happen. This is a tough task (3 purple challenge dice), and you really have to push to cover the distance, so you'll take 2 points of exhaustion. And because the chandeleer is rotten as are the stairs here's 2 black misfortune dice. ALSO, if you fall, you'll take a wound for every 2 skulls showing at the end. What do you think? Feeling lucky?" This isn't about measuring the distance on a board, or about looking up rules for jumping distance, or falling damage. Its about someone being cinematic and awesome. What's more, you as the GM are able to let the players pull off stunts (by saying 'Yes' to a crazy idea) AND the players know the risks. So if the player picks up those dice and starts assembling his pool to try, he's agreed to your terms implicitly.

So the game is DEFINITELY in the GMs hands, and not in the 'rules' hands. The rules enhance the game, and don't get in the way.

* My group enjoys a good story, however, we don't really role play too much. We have more of a "kick down the door" style.

Be careful about combat frequency. The setting is deadly, and solving everything through 'more combat' can actually lead to PC deaths. That being said though, there is no reason why you can't chop things up. The system is bloody, gory, vicious, and awesome, and combat is very very deadly. The PCs may frequently have the 'edge' but they can't just kill armies.

Also how does the range and movement work in the combat system (I am getting tired of moving in squares).

Range is abstract. You can say the door is 'medium range' by putting a counter on it from the window (counter) and the cultists standing over the bed (counter). A PC (the dwarf troll slayer who's just 'kicked down the door') can use a maneuver (think of it like a combination minor/move action from 4e) to change range increments. So he can move up to the cultists, and then gain an 'exhaustion' to perform a second maneuver and engage a cultist to attack.

In upshots its abstract, and its easy. In downsides there is no 'clever' way to move. But no OAs either.

Can you give me any tips on why WHR would be good for my group?

I'll do these in bullet points. WHR might be for your group if:

*You hate micromanaging plusses and minuses. Everything is resolved with the intuitive dice pool mechanic (which does take a session or two to get used to).

*You like little awesome 'bits' in the box that let you play the game with all the 'extras' included (EX you don't have to buy separate dungeon tiles, minis, counters, dice etc).

* You hate initiative order that makes you stuck in a hallway while the tanks at the bottom go last etc. PCs decide who goes in what order. Fighter took a big crit? Great, put the priestess of shallaya up next. Oh new enemies incoming? Put the tank up on the block to charge them.

* You want some horror mixed into your fantasy. I'm sorry but ravenloft never scared me as much as that cultist chanting from all the extra mouths on his body.

* You like saying 'yes' to your players, and letting THEM manage the risk and the rewards. Alternately - if you like having the power be in your calls and not in micromanaging rules lawyering.

Also I'll concur with the people up above. In a group of GM and 3 players, the Core and maybe a dice box should handle most of what you need. And if you have questions, the community here on the forums is pretty awesome.

Thank you all for the good advice. I am still going to check with my group first, but it seems very fun. I love the fact that there is no " +1 for this, -1 for that, ect" and the fact that players can be more cinematic and not have to worry about rules associated with it. Maybe it will help bring out our group's imagination.

The real goal is for a more streamlined experiance, so we can focus on the action and fun without having to stop so much and count squares, keep track of 20 conditions, and search through rulebooks trying to find that one rule that no one has ever used until now. Like I said above I don't mind rules and tracking for that matter, but what I do deslike is that there are so many times when we spend more time setting things up or moveing things and argueing about certain rules than actually saving the princess from some huge beast.

On the Warhammer setting, I used to have a Skaven army and out of curousity I was wondering if the core set has any Skaven details? Not that its super important I'm just curious hehe.

I just recently got into WFRP, so I don't have all the extra bits, but I'll do what I can to answer your question (highfive skaven army buddy! ).

The rat-men live beneath ground as far as I can tell, and are largely 'legends and scary childrens stories'. There is a stat block for them in the Tome of Adventure, but they don't seem to feature any more prominently than the beastmen, demons, chaos warriors etc.

From what I understand there may be more information on them in the Edge of Night (as the adventure I believe features them) and possibly the upcoming Bestiary and accompanying Vault. Since I have none of the above, maybe someone else can jump in.

I'm pretty certain if you like skaven, there is no reason you cannot feature them as villains any more than any other scary beastie or ruinous powers follower.

ZSpark said:

Man, I do agree, this community is just fantastic!

About the rules and systematics, I suggest when you talk with your group to make one thing clear: you'll need to bend over all the parts for some hours and go through the book a little at the beginning. If you jump too early to a conclusion (as I've seen people who used to play Warhammer's 2nd ed and never got to buy 3e, and as I felt the first time I tryed 3e with my group), it is posible to feel frustrated thinking all the game parts require too much attention.

I'm very pleased to say that is just that, a misleading early conclusion. To me, at least, it happened because 3e is very different from any RPG I've played before.

Once you get the basics about the rules (and read the FAQ on the FFG's support page), it all becomes completely fluid. And that happened to me not after a couple of months, but in the second time I've played! Ok, ok, we were still too focused on cards and such, but it became very clear that the game was not about that, and all the components were there to free your imagination.

It is real fun.

As for skaven, it's just like shinma said, but I don't have Edge of Night and the Creatures book haven't been released yet. We'll probably see at least a little bit more about the skaven. As they are such a complex race, I believe they'll need their own expansion to work every detail, but there'll sure be nothing stoping you from using them as villains with some detail available as well. And, if you want to run an entire campaing on skaven as villains, you can pick what we already have in 3e as baseline and research through 2e pdf material to get fluff details and inspirations.

Cheers.