Hi guys, I'd like to open some topics for tactics discussions on characters. I'd like to focus on the best way to build and to use characters in the Advanced Campaign.

This one tread, particularly, should focus on the use of the three dwarven characters in Descent: Brother Glyr, Corbin, and the newcomer Krutzbeck.

Brother Glyr I believe is a very odd fellow. With 8HP and 3Armor he should be a tank, but is still a pretty frail one, especially against traps (the Spider Queen is his nemesis) that make his Armor a laughable matter. All with a HUGE conquest value of 4. Even his damage output isn't that good, since he's got split dice and skills. With 5 fatigue and a Speed of 2, he doesn't even seem that much of a runner, since his ability brings his movement (prior to fatigue using) to no-more than 4 during an advance action (which is average) and 6 during a Run action (which is BELOW average).

I believe that using Brother Glyr, a player should focus on the fact he has 2 movement points during a turn he choses a Battle action (or a Attack+Order action), which is way BEYOND average!

As a start, it's clear this character should be given as much armor as possible. With a base Speed of 2, there's really no reason to refrain from buying him the top-notch defense offered by each Campaign Level. As for other Items, give him movement increasing Other Items and melee weapons with Reach, which come in handy to make Battle actions.

Buying Brother Glyr additional HPs should also be a main focus, since it greatly enhances his usefulness as a tank. Most important of all, I think that Brother Glyr should buy Skills triggering with the Battle action, since Battle action IS the action he actually does BETTER than other characters! Battle Cry actually allows him to move 3 spaces while doing a Battle action! Knight would also be a great skill, since it allows him extra movement and attack paying Fatigue (which Glyr has plenty of, fortunately). Finally there's Unmovable that gives him an actual extra attack during the Overlord's turn and a nice +1Armor that is really strong on his base value of 3! Alternative skill from Sea of Blood is Swashbuckler. If you manage to combine all these, you should than think about giving him abilities enhancing his movement. Ox Tatoo is very good, as are Tiger Tatoo (especially good for the Pit damage immunity), Spry, Nimble, Skilled, Swift, and Shark Tatoo. Skills increasing Speed combine particularly well with both Knight and Swashbuckler.

I'll dissect other characters later on in this same tred, meanwhile, I'd like anyone to report any experience or idea on Descent dwarves.

Elric of Melniboné said:

According to the fluff in the various Runiverse games, the dwarves suffered heavy casualties during the Dragon Wars and subsequently retreated to their homeland of Dunwarr, being "fed up with the insanity and violence" of the world outside, or some such. They still send out their young to serve as dwarven rangers and one assumes that there are a few dwarves who have decided to remain in Terrinoth (Forge was built and is still occupied by dwarves to some extent.)

I mention this mainly because I've seen you mention how few dwarves there are in the game a couple times now. There is a reason why, thought you might like to know. =)

That's about how I always saw Bro Glyr, a good fighter. With today's modern MMORP usage of teams, he doesn't really fit (i.e. Tanks are supposed to take damage but not really deal it out, but DPS are supposed to be squishy, etc), but he seems more of a classical hero, one that attacks a lot and is pretty good on defense (i.e. 2 native armor). In the Advance Campaign, he can really shine, since you can upgrade his health making him on par with other melee heroes.

IMHO, all the dwarves are pretty solid melee characters...

-shnar

P.S. And I'd still love to see a dwarf-centric expansion to Descent! The party travels to Dunwarr (or maybe the outskirts) and delves into some abandonned mines or ones run by the "evil" dwarves. An Advanced Campaign would be stellar!

shnar said:

I agree completely. It would be a new and refreshing way to expand the game and the game universe. I rather suspect any forthcoming Advanced Campaigns will follow the Runebound expansions since they have 3 more overland maps all but done there. But I'm personally hoping for another vanilla expansion next anyway, so Dungeons of Dunwarr (or what-have-you) would be great to me.

It could also be used to fulfill the "urban expansion" idea that has been brought up in previous discussion about "what we'd like to see next." Maybe not exactly what most people had in mind, but wandering through the underground fortress-cities of the dwarves could easily fit both bills. Discovering that the dwarves are embroiled in some kind of underground civil war would be a pretty cool fluff addition, too. =)

That's a great idea. The problem with an "urban" expansion is that Descent is pretty set underground, with rocky walls and tunnels to go through. However, that's exactly what dwarf urban life is like, so it'd be easy to adapt Descent into a dwarven city environment. And having the Overlord controlling dwarves (in addition to his normal minions) just seems like a really great idea.

The name of the expansion would have to fit with the WARTS theme though, like maybe an H or a U (WARTSUCK?) or a Y...

-shnar

First: thanks to Steve-O for his enlightening explanation of why so few dwarves are traveling Terrinoth right now. I love to know more about the background of the games I'm playing (and I like games with a good background), so your post was really interesting for me.

Second: Yeah...a dwarven based expansion...does anyone remember anything if I call out the name of Kellar? I'd love something styled that way...I'd also love the return of Gargoyles to Dungeon Crawling Games...also Big Bad Armored Guys are somewhat missing...and I won't say Orcs because I get the Greenskins aren't necessarily the bad guys in the Terrinoth setting (am I mistaken somehow?).

Third: Shnar, Brother Glyr hasn't native Armor of 2. He has native Armor of 3! That's one of the few things that might make him an outstanding tank once you buy him some additional HPs.

Now that I have a few minutes, I'd like to get back to the main topic of this tread and discuss a bit about Corbin.

His stats are similar to Glyr's (of course, they're both Dwarves...). He's got "only" Armor2 and Speed3. Despite this, Glyr's the better at moving around and Corbin's the better at tanking! That's of course because of special abilities. I already discussed Glyr's one. Corbin's ability is the "absolute tank's" one. Whenever he gets damage (attacks, traps, stuff...), he takes one fewer wound. Right now I believe this to be the best defensive skill in the game...and it is also the reason why Corbin's Conquest Value is 4, instead of the canonical 3 for 8HP 2Armor build characters.

I believe one of the main flaws of this character, particularly in Vanilla Descent, is his skill distribution. Corbin is born to be a tank and he requires skills that help him be a tank. Subterfuge skills aren't usually cut for it. Cautious, and Burglar to a minor extent, might be nice, since they offer some Trap defense, which is always nice on low HP characters. Of the Sea of Blood expansion I'd get Evasion or Lightfinger. Of course Skilled , Spry, and Swift may also come in handy, but I don't really think they're a must have with this character.

On the other hand, Fighting skills really offer this character some very good options: Bear Tattoo (along with Shark Tattoo in Sea of Blood), Die Hard, Ox Tattoo, Tough, Unmovable. Again, Tiger Tattoo is nice, but not really needed for this guy, especially sine falling in pits causes him no damage and pit traps cause already 1 less damage. Thanks to a starting rating of 5 Fatigue, Corbin may also make good using of some Fatigue consuming skills. You can combine Unmovable with Knight, take Swashbuckler, then add in Battle Cry. Or you could choose a simple Runner (nice Fatigue spending skill, doesn't require to combo, leaving slots open to the tanking skills), if you're using Sea of Blood. There's th Able Warrior/Relentless combo. And finally there's the simple Cleave, that again requires no combo, hence is nice.

Now, if you manage to build him as a tank (which means if you manage to build him as he should be built) I think he may become the Overlord's nightmare by adding in the Taunt skill. The only thing worse than a sturdy tank, is a sturdy tank you're almost obliged to target (unfortunately you get no Taunt skill in Sea of Blood...lame)! Just remember to get the Ox Tattoo if you want to give him Taunt: it really helps and look for the Hunting The Wyrm Rumor. A tank with Taunt, Unstoppable, and Ironskin is HELL for the Overlord.

Another skill which might work pretty fine with him is Berserker, since he loses wounds slower than other character and can afford to remain wounded longer than other characters.

This character is also the only one I'd go as far as to suggest a couple of skills. Since Corbin should be used more as a damage sponge than a damage dealer, I believe he should be equipped with Sword and Shield (or something like that). Hence Ambidextrous might be nice, allowing him to further reduce damage, once per turn. Also Defender from Sea of Blood may be really annoying (for the Overlord, of course). A tank that makes sturdier the guys around is not something you really want to meet. The two skills may even be combined for a really, really nasty effect.

During advanced campaign get the 4HP at each campaign level. This character loves additional HPs...

As for equipment, weapon and shield is the best option for a pure tank. Even if he starts with only 1 die on Ranged, you might consider equipping and training him as a ranged character, since one-handed ranged weapons are usually better than one-handed melee weapons. Also, this might be a wise choice depending on what starting skills you drew (eg, if you drew nothing better than a shooting buffing skill...lame). I really like the Cursed Bronze Shield, since it allows to reduce damage from traps and makes almost immune to Blast and Breath. With Ambidextrous and Defender, it's very strong. If you don't have Ironskin or Unstoppable yet, I strongly suggest the Mirror Shield from the Silver Deck, especially if you gave Taunt to the boy. Otherwise stick to the Skull Shield. Too powerful. I'd even be in doubt between the Skull shield and the Warrior Shield (provided, Ox Tattoo and Hunting the Wyrm were taken). With base Speed of 3, armors aren't a issue. Go for the heaviest. Add Ring of Protection and Knight's Ring as soon as you can, especially if you've got Taunt...otherwise you might need to distribute abilities. If you build him as a melee fighter (which is his most natural evolution), the Cursed Bronze Sword is nice tool of killing. Cursed weapons are good on sturdy characters, since the Overlord doesn't get those extra XPs so easily.

I don't have much more to say about Corbin, again everyone is invited to contribute with experiences or ideas on the character.

Next time I have time it will be the strangest Dwarf around Terrinoth, a guy called Krutzbeck!

Elric of Melniboné said:

It rings a couple bells, yeah. =P

Elric of Melniboné said:

Gargoyles would be cool. I don't especially miss chaos warriors, but if we continue with the dwarven halls expansion idea, I'm sure a heavily armored "evil dwarf" type enemy would be suitable.

You are correct that orcs aren't necessarily evil. They are pretty savage and seeing them used as monsters in some capacity wouldn't be entirely out of place, but as a race they have found a place for themselves in civilization after siding with the humans, elves and dwarves to defeat the Dragonlords.

BTW, there is a fourth dwarf in the Mists of Zanaga expansion (at least she looks like a dwarf to me.) Runemaster Eglia or something like that. She doesn't have a Descent hero card as yet, though, so I guess she can't really be analyzed like the rest here. Good job with that so far, BTW.

You know you just sent me nuts with the news about what could be a near-future drarvess for Descent, don't you, Steve-O?!

By the way, I'm glad to hear you're liking my work here...I hope to get some time, later to talk about Krutzbek...he looks like real fun to me...

As an Overlord, I *hate* Corbin. His ability to reduce 1 wound comes into play so many times and has saved his bacon I can't count how many times. Usually, against heavily armored foes, the OL will traps since they get through armor. But not Corbin! And to top it off, in our current campaign, he's got that cursed shield that lets him block 2 hits and can block hits that ignore armor. Guys a monster!

-shnar

Glad to know, my guesses on Corbin were correct enough. Could I go as far as to ask shar how his dwarven nightmare is equipped (beside the beloved cursed shield) and what skills has he right now (and the Campaign Level they're playing right now)?

Now, lets get dirty with Krutzbeck. A quick look at his sheet shows us a medium built character (HP8, Armor2), with rather decent (but very average), movement abilities (Fatigue4, Speed4). A good statline for a shooter or a mage...wait! He's a melee specialist! 3 Melee traits and 3 Fighting skills aren't exactly allowing you to multiclass this guy...But with only 8HPs he's going nowhere as a melee tank, even with the sweet Armor2!

Ok, ok...the solution to the riddle must be in his ability...sure thing...lets see...he gets +2 Damage and +2 Armor when he's reduced to 4HPs or less...Still makes not so much sense. What's the meaning or rising to a mighty base Armor4 when the character is practically about to die?! And even rising damage, what's the point when the charcter is about to die...besides, to melee fighters you tend to improve HPs so, the more you get this character useful for melee, the least useful his ability gets! Still quite unsatisfying...but there's still somethig on that sheet we haven't looked at...

Conquest 2. With 8HP and 2Armor a Conquest Value of 2 is waaaaay below the curve. So that's where his "creation points" went...Actually this is just what makes him a rather interesting, albeit not overpowered character!

Sporting a nice movement and a fully specialized set of dice/skills, Krutzbeck is sure to become an easy damage dealer...and the Overlord has to eliminate damage dealers or they tend to clear maps of monsters far too quickly. Once the Overlord starts punishing the little, though, he will start to meet some hardship in keeping adding damage (an Armor Value of 6 with a Chain mail and 7 with Ring of Protection...and this guy hasn't even put hands on treasures, yet) and when the turn of the dwarf comes again, he's an even nastier damage dealer! At this point the Overlord shall have to use his trump card (a trap card or an event card played on a very strong monster) to kill the brutal entity roaming his dungeon...and earn no more than a couple CTs.

Not exactly a powerhouse in Vanilla Descent, where the heroes can't afford so many kills, but decisively a fun-hero in campaign where you may be a bit more light headed about being killed a couple more times than usual and where the brutish potential of this guy can be brought to its maximum.

How should he go equipped? Actually this dwarf gives the best of himself when reduced to 4 wounds, but on the other hand he has to "stay" in the 1-4 HP range long enough to be of some use. I believe he should receive heavy armors, but none that reduces his speed, since it would really inhibit his lethality (unless he's got the Enduring skill, which isn't exactly a first choice unless you're playing Nanok or maybe Jonas). I believe Fatigue-recovering armors would be a bless on this character, since they increase the number of turns he may move by fatigue and battle (or trigger Knight/Swashbuckler). Another nice combo can be obtained with the Red Plate of Kellos. He can activate (while being below 4HP), attack and then put a Rest Order after he's done...If someone in the party has the Leadership skill he can even move. As for weapons...he's meant to be played as a DpS, the deadliest the better. Actually all two-handed weapons have their use: axes do more damage, hammers knockback, sticks have reach. I love axes, but I guess that one should choose the weapon depending on what the whole party can do or the whole party needs most. Movement Items and damage increasing items should be priority, but depending on the situation also an Armor boost may come in handy. The Beastman Fetish is by all means one of my favourites...being able to re-roll a miss is better than a +3 damage from a Sheath of Might on my opinion. I also love the Knight's Ring, but Wings of Regiroth and Elven are also fine choices.

Coming down to skills, he's quite decent choice range. Berserker is a quite simple choice. It simply stacks with Krutzbeck's own ability with a sinergistic effect. Almost a Must Have with this character IMHO. Also Tiger Tattoo is a great for Krutzbeck. It increases his threat range and adds extra fatigue for movement while battling and renders the dwarf to pits. Having your ultrapowerful damage dealer with skyrocket armor die because of a pit is very very annoying. My third favourite on Krutzbeck is Ox Tattoo. Krutzbeck won't last forever with 4- HP...hence you don't want him to be struck by some debuff when he can do most havoc. At this point I'd say he should stack with anything allowing him more attacks: Able Warrior, Knight or Cleave. Perhaps he could be complete with an appropriate skill for regaining fatigue (Relentless if he's going with Able Warrior, Battle Cry if he's using Knight). Good Sea of Blood alternatives may be Nimble and Swashbuckler. Swashbuckler in particular is very powerful, since it gives you good control over the damage you're taking, which is crucial with this character!

He might also be a good character for a Taunt skill (you want him to take damage), but I think that forcing the Overlord to attack just him might have the nasty effect of having him die too easily even wih the boosted armor at low HPs. The Overlord is going to target him anyway, since he's making so much damage (he can't ignore the Dwarf at all!)...increasing his damage potential is actually the most proficient way of getting him targeted.

Last campaign notes: it's very hard to me to asses if you should buy extra HPs with this character. He works better with low HP, but if you notice he's dying far too often, you might consider about having him buy HPs once or even twice...probably at least once is needed. Also there is a very very nice Rumor for him out there. I can't remember which it is, but it's from Sea of Blood, and the reward allows you to reduce the Conquest Value of one of your heroes by 1. You know, Krutzbeck is the absolutely perfect target for that Rumor, 'cause having him earn nothing but 1xp when killed is really, really going to make the Overlord nervous. Believe it.

That's how I see the new little dwarf. How about it?

Elric of Melniboné said:

This would be the dwarven rage. You beat him a bit - he gets enraged (Dwarves can be a bit fiesty can they not?) - and hits harder and blocks more aggressively. I kinda think its cool. Amazing skill? No - but not bad nonetheless.

I definitely agree...as for "design" I really think Krutzbeck is the best out of the 6 new heroes. His skill is both nice and very flavorful and I love when flavor meets the rules. I also believe him to be pretty nicely balanced and a character that offers different game experience from what has been seen so far.

I also like the super-multiclass building of Lindel. I believe he's a very interesting choice for any party. But still HE might be overpowered.

Challara's familiar...well, if the party plays well, it allows to clear dungeons at amazing speed. Perhaps not overpowered, but still I doubt she's perfectly balanced.

Brother Gherynn is simply too broken. Jaes pales in comparison, and Jaes was pretty good mage, by the way.

Tatianna is also way broken. One less fatigue than Silouette and an ability that can make the overlord go mad.

Hugo isn't broken, but he's boring. Nice tank. He can...tank. Then...tank. Booooring.

Krutzbeck is the only really nice fella over there, on my opinion.

Just wanted to thank you for starting this thread- Corbin is one of my favorites to play (next to One-Fist of course). Also- I love your Moorcock user name!

Elric of Melniboné said:

Certainly. We're almost through copper (total CT is 188) and Corbin has the following:
- Sword: Shadowblade (cursed, ~~ = +3dmg, ~~~ = -1 OL Threat)
- Shield: Skull Shield (cursed, +5 Armor vs. Blast, Bolt, Breath, exhaust to cancel 2 wounds can cancel ones that ignore armor)
- Armor: Plate Mail (+3 Armor)
- Other: Belt of Strength (+1 damage)
- Skill: Weapon Mastery (2 free surges)
- Skill: Tough (+4 Wounds)

So, he has 5 armor, which is pretty tough already. Add the Skull Shield and he has the ability to withstand 7. Add in his special -1 damage ability, I have to do more than 8 damage to even touch him! In copper, not an easy thing (though I do have Silver Eldritch upgraded, and those Dark Priests pack a mean punch). The Cursed weapons do little, since he has two, he usually just runs to town and buys a Curse Doll to have them removed. Sure it drains their gold a bit, but removes the effect of the curses and so he's left as a powerhorse in Copper.

The best way to whittle him down is usually with traps, especially before he gets any health upgrades. Also, I'm playing with Captain Bones, and having explody skeletons help. But it seems like he saves his shield for the curses/skeletons and uses that in conjunction with his special ability, so I almost always just get 1 or 0 wounds on him.

-shnar

Well...consider yourself lucky you won't have to face a Corbin with TAUNT...THAT would be really troublesome...(don't tell your player about the Ambidextrous/Defender combo either!).

By the way, I just noticed: Corbin must have at least a couple Burn tokens before he's even endangered by the thing...nice, isn't it? (sorry shnar...)

Elric of Melniboné said:

It's worse than that.
FAQ pg12
Q: If a hero has multiple damage-causing effect tokens (such as Burn or Bleed), is the damage considered to be one source or multiple (for purposes of Corbin, Skull Shield, etc.)?
A: Multiple sources. Each token (not each token type) is considered a separate damage source.

Corbin ignores Burn entirely.

Taunt, BTW, is not particularly difficult to circumvent for a competent OL. It is still useful for the hero, but a lot of inexperienced players vastly overrated it either because their OL isn't smart enough to get around it or they play it wrong.

Of course, smarter the Overlord, weaker Taunt...still I believe that a skill that obliges the overlord to move his pieces in a certain way in a skill that creates problems. When you can seriously influence the moves of your opponent you're always at some advantage in a game, IMHO.

Wow for the Burn thing! Corbin can keep burning and just ignore it...funny.