Well, that preview looks interesting. On first sight, the stats look good, and I also like the colour of the pieces.

I agree. Thats the color i wanted to see the Russians in too. Now i wonder what the new German tanks are. I think the Elefant tank destroyer might make an appearance; to my understanding it was pretty common during this period and its also a well known vehicle.

Was the SU122 really as fast as a halftrack??!! Otherwise the vehicles look great to me!

The Elephant tank destroyer was never common. There was only ever about 90 of them (though certainly not the most limited form of German combAT vehicle). However, the Kursk period was when they were introduced and were most common, so if this primarily a 1943 expansion this would be the one to release it with.

Panzer 3s would be good (or where the released with the Desert expansion?). Panzer 2s maybe (though they were certainly delegated to a lesser role). Stugs would be a good addition. Maybe some of the wacky tank destroyers.

The Soviet SU-122, however, really shines in comparison to its German counterparts. As mobile as a half-track, this tank is dangerous from nearly anywhere on the map. It packs about as big a punch as the Panzer IV and can even take more of a beating. With it’s speed, protection, and reliable firepower, the SU-122 is a versatile offensive machine.

Didn't it get " no fire and move" as it's a non-turreted vehicle? If it did, I would say it's a versatile DEFENSIVE vehicle rather than an offensive one...

Kingtiger said:

So far, no official non-turreted AFV has "no fire and move", therefore, I do not think the the SU 122 will be limited in that way.

Other sources make the SU 122 a little slower than the T34-76, so I think speed 7 might be a bit too fast.

Actually 7 is correct i used Polish and Russian sources. both the T-34 and SU-122 where capable of 33-35 mph on roads and good off-road terrain.

BJaffe01

Cool, I like fast tanks, they mix things up nicely.

Panzer 3's were in the desert expansion but would be good to have some more of them as only 4 came with DOTF.

Also the Stugs were in the normandy expansion (4 of them)

For the germans I'm geussing that they get a lot of the vehicles they allready have, ie the phanter, panzer 3, the stug, jagdpanzer etc.

So, the KV1 will be slower than the tiger. That means a speed of 4. Thats not very fast I think I allready enjoy the KV1. However, the KV1 will have almost the same protection as the tiger, and the T-34 will have almost the same armor as the KV1? That means the T-34 will be darn good. Espesially if the russian get as many of them as the americans typically get shermans...

Well i believe they say "new German armor" in the preview so im hoping that means new as in different than before. Although it would be nice to get some more of the older ones if there are only 4 panzer IIIs and stugs.

The T-34 should be a real good tank. when they first showed up on the battlefield German officers and tankmen knew they where in trouble,luckily for them the Russians had no idea how to use them properly until late 1942

BJaffe01

KlausFritsch said:

OK, I'm confused now.I thought Bill Jaffe said that from now on all non-turreted vehicles were supposed to be played with the restriction that they can't make fire and move/ move and fire actions.Now is or isn't this an official rule change??? (even if it isn't, I guess we will keep on using it as a houserule, because it seems to make some sense, also a reasonable for limiting them despite the fact that there are no facing rules in the game...

This is where I found it.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=7&efcid=1&efidt=334608

Kingtiger, I'm afraid that this was not an official rules change.

After thinking about this a while, I would find a "no move and fire" restriction a bit harsh. How about "receives 4 fewer movement points for move and fire"? That would make shoot'n'scoot tactics for vehicles like the Hetzer or the Jagpanzer IV possible.

After reading that other thread i also think no fire and movement seems too harsh. I agree with the movement penalty instead, maybe 3 or 4 hexes.

KlausFritsch said:

Sorry, but that's not the impression I get from that thread. It also seems to be in some kind of FAQ on boardgamegeek from what I understand...

it's not official just the way i play them. i agree it's harsh, but i like it that way. for it to be better balanced it would probably need to have a different penalty

BJaffe01

Where are the rules????

It should get out in Juli....So an appetizer would be nice

BJaffe01 said:

I like it that way too. Perhaps advanced rules including facing might be even better, but without those, at the very least not allowing fire and movement yet at the same time raising its armor value by 1 makes the stug and jagdpanzer different from the panzer IV. The reasoning behind it also makes sense to me given the current TOI rules and the abilities and drawbacks of those vehicles.

A shame that it's not official...

If it were official, then there would be rules about how unbalanced and annoying it is, then there would be threads changing the rule and calling for that change to be official. It's a game, a framework, make the rules you and your friends are comfortable playing with and move on.

sloejack said:

Well, my point is that I had the impression that the thread on BGG DID contain OFFICIAL rules and clarifications, so I was confused. Also, the thing I mind the most is that different vehicles/molds have exactly-I'd like to stress that word EXACTLY- the same stats! (speed, firepower, defense etc.), whereas the actual vehicles were considerably different from one another. In other words, I think the initial decision to make them identical statwise was wrong.

I do agree with you that each playgroup can just pick and choose what they like and we will probably keep on playing the modified version of the vehicles,.