Greetings all,

I have begun writing a supplement for using Eldar in Dark Heresy (both as main antagonists and as a character race) and have come into a slight problem. What is it that the Eldar use for currency, or instead of currency?

I have been a long time fan of the Eldar, collecting and playing them in WH40k for several years, and following their fluff development, but this is one feature of their society that I cannot remember ever being addressed.

I had thought that maybe their use a system of barter, but that just doesn't seem elegant enough to me (but then again, the concept of money is a very Human one, and in reality, it is a rather daft one: "I shall give you these 20 small metal discs for your gun!" "Yes, that seems a fair trade, as I have no use for a gun, but 20 small metal discs will do the job just fine!").

So what does the infinite wisdom of these boards say regarding the matter?

TYIA

I believe Eldar are simply beyond currency and probably view it as primitive. If you really need a system though it would have to be barter. One thing worth mentioning is The Radicals Handbook has Dark Eldar in it that you can hire, their price though is slaves! Regular Eldar would be hard to bargain with I suspect unless you had something like Spirit Stones or the influence to help the Eldar with something.

If you're trying to design a playable Eldar system then I'd use something like the Death Watch renown system for getting new stuff from base.

Darkshroud said:

Aye, after much consideration and assistance, I decided to go on a Renown system. Thanks for your input.

Diel Ulricsson said:

We can't be certain of that, because we have no other sentient life forms that we can compare ourselves to.

Furthermore, a system of currency isn’t all that daft. Which seems more elegant to you?

1. A farmer goes to town with five chickens, looking for a hammer and some nails. Unfortunately the blacksmith doesn’t want chickens. So the farmer finds another farmer that will trade the chickens for a goat. He finds a cloth merchant who will trade three bolts of wool for the goat. Finally, the blacksmith accepts the wool for the hammer and nails; or

2. The farmer trades in the five chickens for a few shiny metal coins that fit in his pocket and that the blacksmith will readily accept.

Barter as an economic system simply has too many transactions cost to be used outside of very limited circumstances. I’m not an economic historian, but I don’t know of any civilization that relied on barter as a primary means of economic transaction.

Renown could be a part of an Eldar economic system, but doesn’t fit as a primary method of transactions. It seems to me to invoke images of a corrupt or broken society, e.g. sure you can eat today, as long as you know the right people and are owed the right favors.

Nevertheless, I can understand the need to create an economic system wholly alien to our own. We could use some historical examples for inspiration. I believe the Native American Choctaw tribe used a system of economic transaction that required the passing of goods along familial lines (beyond supporting your immediate or even extended family). This duty-bound system ensured that all members of the tribe were supported by one or many providers. The tribal chieftains and elders also gained a share of surplus goods.

This system sounds similar to a European–style feudal system; however, it was egalitarian rather than hierarchical. It’s also unlike a command economy because while the chieftains gained a share of economic goods, they neither determined the flow of goods nor controlled the means of production.

The Eldar could use a similar system of duty-bound transactions (potentially, but not necessarily along familial lines). Eldar leaders could gain a portion of the goods to use toward the common defense or other public projects. Furthermore, a system of Renown can supplement this, representing the power that certain important individuals have within Eldar society.
P.S.: Anyone else use Google Chrome here? I can't seem to use copy/paste on this board while in Chrome.

Nikitas said:

It's not just Chrome that has problems, because whoever coded this board decided that paste should be done through a popup window, which means that any browser with a popup blocker (Which browser worth talking about doesn't have a popup blocker these days ?) will have problems.

As for the Eldar economy, given how much craftworld Eldar have to dedicate themselves to a path, I'd expect a very communist economy. Each individual gets given what they need and nothing more. They would have no currency for internal transactions because they don't need one. But what they would need is for their Farseers to use their procog so they know what they need to produce.

I concur. Not a monetary system, not a barter system either. I believe the Eldar to be sufficiently more advanced in terms of societal structure and ready enough to achieve a functioning communist system (mind, there never was real communism on earth, closest to it was socialism or power-enforced pseudo-communism; maybe that's why people are eager to think it a - nomen-omen - bankrupt socio-economical system).

Money, quite simply, is superfluous for them as the individuals of their society are capable enough of controlling their excesses and unrelenting in providing their due share. No?

Von Todkopf said:

It might be even more than superfluous; the eldar are very touchy about things like selfishness, indulgence, excess, etc. because of their whole "Slaanesh" thing, so they might even view a monetary system as dangerous because it promotes capitalism/free trade which promotes greed and excess. I too think they'd be far beyond a monetary system, with something more akin to a communist system making sure everyone gets what they need.

At the higher levels of Eldar government I would think that resource allocation would operate on something more like the renown system.

One would imagine that the craftworlds are so advanced and well provided for that there isn't much need for a stable economy as humans understand it. It may be that the relatively unknowable Eldar have transcended the "demand" side of the supply and demand equation through the use of a philosophical system that prioritises internal harmony and balance over greed. After all, money can = avarice, and avarice is certainly one of the traits one would imagine that the Eldar path is designed to overcome.

That said, the Eldar path is not always 100% successful, and some Eldar "fall off the wagon," becoming renegades, outcasts or, conversely, become trapped in a narrow aspect of the path and become Exarchs. It may be that some renegade craftworld Eldar have "devolved" to the point where they may consider trading with humans or other aliens in order to get hold of things they need, (especially as they're unlikely to have the pratically endless resources of a craftworld behind them) but I guess they'd be pretty unhappy with such an arrangement.

Exodite Eldar don't have the philosophy of the path behind them, but seem pretty rural, and may have a sort of "noble savage" contempt for the whole concept of trading, as their maiden world provides all they need.

Harlequins probably regard the entire concept of trading as hilarious.

And has already been mentioned, the Dark Eldar would probably gleefully engage in trades that enable them to get more slaves...or to corrupt their trading partners.

Another thing that could come up in this is the way they 'evolved'.

Humans evolved naturally, and thus most of the things we do can be traced back to a few drives. Finding and impressing mates, providing for a family, and pushing the survival of our social group. As has been mentioned, a monetary system is actually a fairly elegant system of achieving these goals. It is a system of abstracting value into a universal form we can hold onto over time. It is also a way of enforcing cooperation. A single person may not be able to convince 30 others to build them a home just with what they have on hand, by by saving their 'value' over time they can organize cooperation.

Now the Eldar didn't 'evolve', they were developed as a weapon. Having skipped the hunter/gatherer stage, they may not have ever developed hording instinct to provide for a family unit long term and impress a mate. Rather than being driven to horde and establish a safe foundation for a family, they seem to be driven to develop their skills, focusing on a path until they achieve mastery and then moving onto a new one. Why would they be driven to act this way? Perhaps to improve their use to the Eldar War Machine, the Eldar Collective as a whole.

I could see them having a very naturally military mindset. Not quite communist, every Eldar is not equal. Perhaps a meritocracy. The more skills and experience you have the higher your position in society. You rise in society by mastering more paths.

Every eldar is guaranteed food and shelter, just as anyone in the military would be. But your 'requisition', your 'wealth', your ability to aquire items of status and luxery increases as you master additional skills.

I can't see them being communist. The Eldar triumph the individual, not the common man. A mix between Sparta and Rome. A spartan focus on discipline and work, with a roman focus on pride and excellence in the eyes of their peers.

I tend to think of the Eldar as more having a gift economy. This sort of economy was common in cultures where there was abundance of resources. It also fits in with the Eldar mindset of trying to avoid strong emotion such as greed. In a gift economy a person tends to strive for respect of his/her peers. This respect is gain from the quality of his/her gifts.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Gift_exchange

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

I'm guessing Eldar DO have currency, although goods produced by the craftworld might be so inexpensive they simply have little bearing on the average eldars life. So currency may only truly bear relevence on items that are hand made. Imagine you had a Star trek style Replicator in your house... you wouldnt buy anything but commodities... and raw commodities are likely cheap. The only things of value would be the raw materials (and I mean Elements, or smaller...), or objects that cannot be produced by their automated machinery.

I'm guessing that the Eldar craftwords are working STC (except for eldar tech), with the added benefit of also being able to produce the said object, as opposed to just being able to display plans.

Currency, or trading is probably more likely to occur by the Eldar government and a rogue trader, rather than eldar individual buying from a rogue trader. Essentially, the craft world leaders most likely buy raw materials in bulk. or it is controlled by a few importing houses. Eldar have had millions of years to produce a template for everything that is Eldar. So its doubtful that anything produced by non Eldar is even desired, except for artistic Curios.

Exodite Eldar are a different story... I suspect they most certainly rely on trade. Without technology to produce their goods for them, someone will have to do the work.... Econ 101 here for reasons why.

Personally I don't see the Eldar as using templates on anything. Considering they believe everything in life is an art, they'd likely find the act of templating to be silly.

Each Shuriken Catapult would be lovingly crafted by master Bonesingers IMO.

linearblade said:

There's no basis I can see for such an assumption.

STC technology is a specifically human invention, created during the Age of Technology mainly to provide simple, reliable and easy-to-maintain devices for newly-established colonies on far-flung worlds.

The Eldar has a galaxy-spanning empire long before humans developed agriculture, so it's safe to say that the development of any given facet of technology in use by the Eldar predates STCs by a considerable margin.

So, to the matter at hand: a collection of thoughts pertinent to the subject, in no particular order.

The Eldar are a culture for whom scarcity of resource has seldom been an issue. Having always been capable of significant feats of psychic influence over their surroundings, the earliest Eldar were able to make the world around them fruitful and relatively safe without the same sorts of challenges faced by humans at a similar point in their development (this is paraphrased from the original article on the Craftworlds in White Dwarf 127). As a consequence of this and the psychic nature of most Eldar technology, the Eldar themselves see little practical distinction between science, industry, art and nature.

The Eldar differ from humans greatly in this regard - humans are a species who have developed the use of complex tools to manipulate their surroundings, while the Eldar simply used their minds and their capability to tap into the Warp to variously supplant or supplement the need for tools. Consequently, the Eldar never had a distinct industrial revolution or equivalent period in their history. If nothing else, it's something worth considering when trying to define the outlook of the Eldar, and when discussing the Exodites (they might choose to shun most technology, but they still use many of the weapons common to the Craftworlds, and their psychic talents remain useful in allowing them to produce the things need from the resources around them.

Contemporary Eldar technology is crafted from psychically reactive substances collectively termed psychoplastics, the most famous of which is Wraithbone. These materials are grown into predetermined shapes by craftsmen - Bonesingers - and assembled to create complex devices, all of which retain an innate psychic resonance. Being grown into shape means, amongst other things, that resource scarcity is less of an issue for the Eldar than it might be for humans, with time and a craftsman's skill being more significant factors in the availability of items.

Now, we know that the Eldar do trade on a fairly large scale, or have done in the past - the Craftworlds are direct evidence of this, having once been massive trading vessels which have since expanded in size and purpose to house the refugees of a shattered empire. However, we don't really know how this trade was conducted, nor who the Eldar would have traded with. There is also evidence of trade on a smaller scale in a few places, but again without details. Given that the Eldar only really need raw materials - from which they can craft whatever they want - it seems safe to reason that large-scale trade would be concerned with moving raw materials between worlds and craftworlds alike, and obtaining those raw materials from other species in exchange for smaller quantities of high-value items (the various kinds of crystal that the Eldar seem capable of producing without difficulty are known to be considered valuable in many parts of the Imperium, for example). The exchange of information seems a possibility here as well - secrets the Eldar possess that others desire are no less valuable than precious metals in theory.

Small-scale/personal trade seems almost non-existent in the few detailed depictions of Craftworlder life - the focus is on developing personal emotional discipline and the benefits of study, with the products of those things less significant than the lessons imparted. An artist learns to understand and express emotions (except rage, which is the specific purview of the Warrior Path), and the art created, be it sculpture, painting, poetry or something else entirely, seen as secondary to that learning - one artist may display their works for the appreciation of others, while another may choose never to reveal his or her creations.

This seems quite likely to be true to those who cultivate crops and tend animals as well - the foodstuffs that are produced are secondary to the skills and disciplines of cultivating them, and the spiritual/psychological focus gained from those skills and disciplines, meaning that the food is simply distributed freely rather than sold on - the gift economy mentioned by Dalnor Surloc seems appropriate here.

I guess the trick is commodity. Every civilization has need for it, though what and how badly depends. Slaves is mentioned as one, gifts as another (though nog really a commodity). To gain commodity one either finds a place to get it yourself or trade for it. And as trade comes in... so does currency. If the human empire has commodities that are of interest for the Eldar, then they will trade with the humans, and as humans have a 'normal' currency this will be of use for the Eldar as well. All boiling down to the point that standard human currency is of interest for the Eldar as they can use it to access commodity for their need. Its basically the same as the earlier post about the farmer needing the hammer, if he can get access to shiny coins he can get access to nearly anything he needs.

So either figure out what kinds of commodity Eldars need directly and use that as their needed commodity or just use the standard empire currency for trade.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I believe you to be mistaken or misunderstanding what I am saying here:

The working STC I am referring to is not human. its Eldar. The Fall of the Eldar occurred BECAUSE they had every physical need they could want taken care of by machines and automation. So therefore the Eldar DID have some sort of STC like device which produced goods for them and tended their needs.

I am referring to the idea of an STC. clearly the eldar possess(ed) something similar. Whether you call it an army of robots or 1 giant fabricating machine, its still an Eldar STC

wolph42 said:

Not necessarily, when dealing with distinct and often mutually hostile species whose values systems differ more than a little.

wolph42 said:

Except that we don't actually have solid proof that the Imperium has a singular currency - the examples of Imperial currency so far presented in 40k has been represented as regional (the primary ones being the Guilder Credits of Necromunda, defined by the merchant's guilds and useful only within the hives of that world, and Throne Gelt, which is mentioned as being a common currency across the Calixis Sector). The largest transfers of goods in the Imperium are overseen by sections of the Administratum, in the form of tithes of men and resources from member worlds to the Imperium for use on other worlds. Actual interstellar trade takes place on a significantly smaller scale, and is secondary to the tithe.

The only species that we know, for certain, to have a singular, universal currency is the Orks, whose teeth serve as an arbitrary monetary system in spite of having no actual worth in their own right.

wolph42 said:

I fervently disagree. I don't see any particular currency system as being particularly widespread within the Imperium, tending instead to be regional (specific to a single world, subsector, sector), limiting their usefulness in long-term trade unless you plan to stay in the area. Similarly, given a lack of near-real-time communication between worlds, contemporary forms of banking don't work quite so well, so individuals need to carry all their money around with them... which is risky because it may not be considered legal tender (or indeed, worthy anything at all) on another world, or be sufficiently well-connected to have easy access to Astropaths, so valuable goods become the main 'currency' of interstellar trade, because they're more reliable.

So, if humans don't employ a universal currency system, why should aliens - who trade far less frequently with humans - adopt a human monetary system? Given the relatively infrequent nature of interspecies trade and the potential for differing values systems (the Stryxis in Rogue Trader are a good example of this - they'll trade with anyone but the Eldar, but tend to accept in payment things that often seem completely worthless to those they trade with), it seems far more practical for both parties to negotiate appropriate goods and quantities for exchange.

linearblade said:

Fair enough, but STC is a term with extremely specific meaning and relevance, beyond simply automation of manufacture, and given its typical usage and context, is really not the best term to be throwing around as a convenient synonym for something else.

@N0-1_H3r3:

FIrst off, I hadn't realized that the 'human' currency is non-uniform over the whole human empire so taken that into account you are rigth that in that case it isn't interesting for an distant alien race that are rarely in contact with the humans to adopt their currency.

However I fervantly remain with my point that EVERY civilization has need for commodities. Granted that they can widely differ from another civilization and if you take the 'alien' aspect into account even more so. Still there will be something somewhere they're interested in. Moreover for Eldar's this is confirmed in an earlier post that one commodity the Eldar are specifically interested in are slaves. It can however be that the commodity is unaccessible to the Humans as well...

If you can find a commodity that is non-consumable, like gold for Humans (and yes I know that you can use gold in a consumable way as well), you can use that as a commodity.

Well, there's Eldar and then there's Eldar.

Dark Eldar are interested in slaves, yes. I am quite certain that Eldar will not be as eager to obtain these, however.

@wolph

You're still assuming trade takes place at all. Trade as we know it is based on mistrust - the idea that if given a chance, the trade partner wouldn't care about your needs and not give you anything unless you demand a good in exchange (even if it's symbolic like money) right now. As soon as we get away from that mistrust, as a self-proclaimed enlightened society like the Eldar would among themselves, the need for a currency fades.

Von Todkopf said:

This is very true, I'm sure there's probably all kinds of terrible things for trade both ways with the ol' school, pre-fall Eldar, drugs, slaves, artifacts and information they might pay for. They might simply just take it unless you have an equivalent show of force...

Likewise, on the other end of the scale there's Craftworlders and they're entirely pointless as all they have to do is have the craft world make whatever they want and it'd be fairly slim pickings to try and sell them something on a material basis of shiny beads. Thinking laterally, something like soulstones and valuable information though could be worth something to them.

Maidenworlders and Corsairs are pretty much dependant on any supply line they can get a hold of and not real fussy about dealing with mon'keys, if they need something they'll trade, if they really need something they'll probably steal it.

MKX said:

Either steal it, or it seems like, quite a bit of the time in the fluff, they'll bargain with information or "a favour".