There's been a lot of talk about various aspects of Space Marines on these threads, and a lot of these keep coming back to different interpretations of how marines think.

So...what's YOUR take on Space Marine psychology? How do you see the mind of a marine working? Are they basically normal men (but a bit bigger) or are they fundamentally different to the rest of humanity?

To what extent does the total absence of fear affect other aspects of a Marine's mind? How do their various implants and enhancements change their thought processes? What about their environment and training? What about their experiences - constant war, bloodshed, violence etc...how would this affect them, mentally? Are they immune to ennui and mental trauma? What about their long lifespan-how does this affect their outlook on life?

Any thoughts?

You also have to take in effect the amount of time the Sm as belonged to the DeathWatch.

If you read SW series, it hints that all of them posted as honor guard to humans lost their rigid training and would indulge a bit more, not heretical but enough to give the main character a feel of distance and detachment from is chapter.

This IMO should be a big part of the deathwatch internal RP. The more strict chapter (i.e. Ultramarines, Imperial Fist) members continuously quoting Index Astartes rules and doctrine while the more lax chapters member( SW, etc) showing less standard methods and the class it creates.

Each chapter as a level of indoctrination and the source of the SM is important.

- SW are feral viking like men that are hard to suppress completely, their rough nature is bound to come out and they kind of nuture their personalities.

- Dark Angel I suspect would indoctrinate only member showing a very similar attitude to the chapter, the extremely loyal and fanatic and secretive.

- etc.

Lightbringer said:

I see none of these as constants. The human mind is never constant, always in a state of flux. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

With marines, they must be strongly duty-driven or they can't become marines. They must be highly professional, if not single-minded , too. And surely that can be prone to change too.

Their special status as protectors of Mankind and icons must make a difference too psychologically. Being chosen ones and all. They are set apart from normal people by that, kinda like rock superstars.

Their long-life span? Difficult to extrapolate since this is very outside of the human realm. How does a human's mind change after centuries of experience? Well, I hope they have a good memory rememberng all that happened. I would assume that the older a person gets the more relaxed they become in life generally.

Alex

Mortals, as the Astartes often refer to humans in the books, would by and large be fleeting and inconsequential to Space Marines. The only mortals of concern would be Inquisitors, Generals, and Admirals. Beyond those three groups, all the rest of humanity wouldn't, or couldn't really matter to them.

Most mortals will be dumbstruck with fear or awe at the sight of a Space Marine. Astartes are the will of the God Emperor made manifest and proof of His power. This could inspire religious zealotry or sycophantic worship of the Astartes. Both of these attitudes would probably not be wanted or welcomed by most Astartes and probably returned with offhanded dismissal or indifferent hostility.

The vast majority of IG units would seem like undisciplined and ineffective rabble from the Space Marines viewpoint.

My view would be that most Astartes would be indifferent towards their far removed mortal kin to the point of seeming hostile. It would be the rare individual marine or player character that would understand what they represent and have the skill to handle interactions with mortals with skill.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Russ himself prevented an extermination of all the human of Hive Armageddon just because he respected the IG as they fought valiantly against the hordes of chaos.

Most chapters keep with them the failed marines as serf and loyal servant and some consider them as friends.

Most Chaplain understand that they are a sword and the IG the shield and meat and both are necessary to defend the Emperium.

What you are implying is close to heresy, SM are holiest servitor of the Emperium, they are still bound to the Empirium of man. To think themself above laws and interest of the Empirum is close to Heresy and can lead to Ecomunication.

crisaron said:

Your thinking of Logan Grimnar, the current Great Wolf. Carry on.

Aajav-Khan said:

OUps!! Knew it was a wolf not sure which one.

crisaron said:

A Primarch or Chapter Master is not a normal Astartes.

Failed aspirants are not most mortals.

Chaplains are not most Astartes.

As to heresy, no, that is not what I am implying. Astartes are an insular warrior society that, for the most part, have limited contact with mortals. Their reality revolves around a rigid warrior mentality. The monastic lifestyle of training, battle, more training, more battles, etc, does not lend itself to easy interaction with mortals.

Mortals are weak and incapable of defending themselves. If mortals were capable, why were Astartes created?

Remember, most does not mean all, and there are always exceptions.

ItsUncertainWho said:

"Sure mortals are weak but so are children. Children need to be protected from harm. Sometimes a few children have to be sacrificed to save many more."

This too is but one conceivable view.

Just as usual I am against a mechanistic view of thing, namely that there is only one attitude. There is bound to be variation.

But then again every gamemaster has his own interpretation of the 40K universe. Mine tends towards greater diversity, if not just for realism but also for unpredictability and thus more entertainment.

Alex

There is actually a lot of variation in the fluff and it is all dependent on Chapter.

Ultramarines more or less run their own little pocket empire of worlds and have a large hand in day to day operations.

Dark Angels don't give a **** about anyone but themselves and their own past/problems.

Salamanders seem to be very protective of mortals, Flesh Tearers not so much.

Each Chapter will have their own variations on how close to humanity they actually are. My view is that the line troopers of most space marine chapters are fairly removed from any true connection with humanity. The officers and special individuals will be closer or further away based on chapter.

Eh, remember that each space marines is also an individual. Even Ultramarines have thier internal disagreements, though sometimes these might seem arcane to outsiders. Some marines are more dismissive of the average imperial citizen, some recognise thier achivements.

Remember, it was a 'mortal man' that saved the life of Guilliman on Tarsis Ultra.

There's also what values the chapter instills in them. Remember that Ultramarines (I have to use them since there's more information on the chapters internal dynamics) are not just 'by the book' they also try to emulate the primarch, who brought not only worlds into the Imperium, but also strove to make those worlds more prosperous.

To understand how a Space Marine thinks, you have to examine their chapter's values and the cultures they came from before that.

BaronIveagh said:

Just don't dumb Marines down. The more you allow for some variation (a more compassionate Flesh Tearer?), the better. Don't make all Marines or all Marines of a chapter alike.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Does this not illustrate the difference between playability and simulation?

Kage

Kage2020 said:

How far would one try to take the simulation in a setting that has its fair amount of pulp?

Anyway it's my understanding that the Marines interpretation of Deathwatch is partially influenced by Arthurian knights. That means each and every marine is supposed a character model by himself. From a simulation view, it's not inconceivable (read: nearly certain) that the people who who is going to become a Space Marine will judge a person to a large degree by their character and potential for development. At least in the viable SM chapters it will be that way. The others will devolve due to running out of competent members to take lead.

So what if the SM training isn't only about obedience and drill. What if the training is about breaking a person on the one hand but also supporting the development of their own character beyond Chapter Demeanour on the other? What if this is wanted in many chapters? (The major chapters?)

Because both are needed, realistically speaking, to become a true leader, someone who can perform at his peak even in the most adverse of conditions where the Codex Astartes doesn't reach and you need to improvise.

Alex

If anyone has the Tyranus conclave astartes house rules for DH, there is a pretty cool write up on space marine psychology on page 71.

I see Space Marines having an internal struggle with pride, in their dealings with normal humans. On one hand they are indeed "better," but to give in completely to that line of thinking is the path to heresy.

I also had a little difficulty thinking about this, but the conversations between the marines in Dawn of War 2 actually helped to give some examples of how individuals from the same chapter could have serious divergences. While Cyrus, who has Deathwatch experience with the Tyranids is convinced that they are a tremendous danger, Avitus dismisses them as aliens who will be destroyed by the righteous might of the Space Marines. They come from the same chapter, but differences in temperament and experience give them different outlooks, as it should.

Space Marines while not physically human, are in my mind mentally human. Do not get me wrong, they go through a lot of mental conditioning that makes them more resilient and stronger willed. The point i mean to take is that they are men, they have personalities, they feel and can feel empathy for humanity. It depends on the chapter on how much of themselves they can keep and what not.

As to the remark about the Dark Angels not caring about anyone but themselves. That is false, it is very true that they have very different priorities, most marines realize they exist to help humanity. The DA are no exception. What space marine would not give a couple lives for the better of the imperium? or let me stress, what THEY see as better for the imperium. Those are my thoughts.

I always pictured them like Knights of the Round table. They have different personalities, some are more altruistic than others, but with an overriding code of behaviour.

I disagree that they are regular people in super enhanced bodies. Decades of indoctrination would change that (in my opinion) plus they would look at the world differently, they couldnt help it. They would think they are superior to humans because they ARE superior to humans. They would think themselves more valuable than humans because they ARE more valuable than humans.

I would think they consider humans thier wards weaker beings to protect as someone else posted earlier like children. And Daddy knows best.

I agree with you, i think i worded my statement poorly, i do not mean that they are average people in big bodies, i mean they all have different personalities. They think and act more "Superior", they have personality though. Again, the right words are not coming to me right now.

Hesporos said:

So they are individuals - yes and as far as I have seen all the fluff supports this as well.

Being elevated to Space Marine status must have some pretty profound effects on the human so initiated. As stated in a previous post, you get taken away from everybody you even remotely know, let alone love, and are submitted to a, from nowadays' perspective, incomprehensible horrific batch of extensive internal surgery, body modification and ruthless indoctrination.

During the training you have just escaped childhood, and the training you're following is heavily emphasized on killing other people. It is not unfathomable that either you already have or will during the training kill one or several human beings, at a time when you aren't an adult yet. You are physically punished, regularly chastised and ritually beaten with indoctrination for the full range of task failure, speaking out of turn or even "impure" thoughts. Before the real training started, you got tested extensively and without compassion - your deepest fears and attachments were explored, and there was nothing left to hide during that process. You got bombarded with endless litanies on serving the emperor, and there was very little time to properly reflect - you are just being pushed on and on. Your peers, virtually the only group that you can relate to and that can understand what you are going through, get decimated while the transformation lasts - and probably more people don't make it than the other way round. You see them crack up from the pressure, cry for their mommies at night, die from surgical complications or be driven utterly and incomprehensible mad and turned into homicidal maniacs that get put down like dogs or transformed into mindless servitors. There is no tenderness, no intimacy, and hormone treatment changes your feelings on a very instinctual level. You probably get abused, at least initially, by older men and/ or your peers.

Speaking from modern comparison, you are psychologically equal parts child soldier, (extreme disease) survivor, detainee, monk, extremist religious sect member, special forces operator, soldier with post-traumatic stress disorder, orphan, border school attendee and whatever you were before you started.

Since the PC survived the process at least half-way intact, they must have found a way to integrate all these scarring memories (and more, since they were on active duty) into some predictable coherent whole. That is probably largely the Chapter personality. I always figured the Chaplain also serves to help out with any, ahem, imbalance that brothers still might develop from time to time.

To my mind, the longevity is what makes it bearable. The process itself (Techmarines go to Mars for thirty years), together with the initial stages of Marine transformation, must set the stage to convince the SM that he is part of a greater good, a paladin of mankind, and the long life helps to put the gruesome process (that wasn't that long if you live a couple of centuries) in perspective of the greater picture.

The Space Marine must find it very hard to relate to mortals, with their everyday cares, families and "petty" worries. Money will lose its meaning, sex already has, family ties are gone, no friends outside the chapter, no hobbies.

Also, because of the extremely conservative stance and the great attention to exploits of the Chapter and its members, SM might perceive time very differently. You are used to campaigns that take decennia or hundreds of years, and you actually capable of planning military strikes over such time spans. You are led by men that have lived hundreds of years. Probably, a day has very little meaning, and you might be unsure about the flow of time itself. I mean, you travel the warp frequently, don't read any newspaper, lead a cloistered life and do what you do, no children, no love - who is to say that you actually didn't stop believing in time at all ?

The

Adult is a relative term though. Most of the fluff supports initiates being taken from primitive cultures in hostile environments. In such situations you can't really compare them to a 10-12 year old in modern society. They very well may have killed a human before being selected and most likely would have killed prey animals in hunting.

Darq said:

That is a good point. It could be elaborated on by the player (life prior to entering the SM).

One a tangent , if the SM used to be a fighter in a tribal society, the ritualized killing in that context might be very different from the industrial carnage of a futuristic battlefield. Many real-life tribal societies have developed complex cleansing rites to "pacify the spirits of the dead enemy", one could argue the psychological role for the "winner".

Still, the combination of being away from home, constantly operated on and having your new group of peers get killed one by one (as they don't survive the process) while being viciously indoctrinated and subjected to psycho-techno-chemical brainwashing must be, mmmh, the experience of a lifetime.

No girlfriend, boyfriend, no diary, no television, no daydreaming, your thoughts subject to telepathic scanning, simply put, no where to hide.

ad astra per aspera, with a whole new meaning. I guess one can not fathom the effects this would have on most, if not all, of us gamers. To survive this with your sanity intact (or at least rebuilt), you must be truly extraordinary. Maybe that is also where the DeathWatch sort of cuts in. Maybe most Marines get scarred pretty badly by this process and lose most emotional aspects that make them human, and just function in the context of their Chapters. The brilliant short story of the DeathWing (with the ex-tribal warriors from the Dark Angels returning to their home world) hints at a glimpse of the ennui this sort of life might produce: at some point, death not only becomes a rather attractive option, but virtually your only way out of the drudgery of centuries of service to a man you will never meet. Any maybe the players are, mentally and psychologically, the elite. They went through this incredible process and retained creative thought, ambition, cheeriness. Maybe these are the men destined to become Chapter Commanders, Chief Librarians, Masters of the Forge, Terminators and Honour Guards.

If that is the basic assumption, then the whole psychology of the transformation and the effect of the Marine experience get dimmed a little again, as the players would be the BIG exception to the rule.

Generally speaking, I cannot imagine the SM being mentally standardized any less than Brave New World or Orwellian counterparts. At some point, to use a 1984 analogy, they will truly truly believe in all aspects of their indoctrination. When a marine, for a misstep, asks a superior for a penance to make up, he probably really thinks A) he deserves such penance B) the one assigning it does so with appropriate measure and C) it is the only way for him to cleanse himself. That whole thing hints at some seriously effective brainwashing.

My take from a roleplaying perspective to the Game was, therefore, to let each player define the Chapter he's from however he felt most comfortable with it. After all, most guys from the Chapter, because of that process, will be very much like the player.....

Ariolan said:

This is one of the points that I think that the Dark Reign "Shameless Speculation" thread might have gotten "more right" than anything else, at least in my interpretation. I can never remember who suggested it, but the conceit that the PCs were special (common to all RPGs) was something that I thought was a stroke of genius, certainly more than Merrett's contribution to the DW video.

Ah well, the opposite has now been canonised with DW, so yet another heresy to be had to believe other than the printed text.

Kage