Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

It's been noted in several instances that technology used during mankind's Golden Era channeled the Warp. In fact much of the technology restrained in the Imperium today that is of human origin pertains to the manipulation of the Warp. This would lead me to conclude that this practice was quite common in Mankind's hey day. As Psykers were proven to exist it would have seemed to the Men of that time that humanity was on the edge of psychic revolution. However as several enemies acolytes face in Dark Heresy prove, the manipulation of the Warp is always a two way affair. It might have started as "anomalies", and then later viruses created from data received from the Warp. Eventually those in charge would have been unable to act, their very technological base rebelling. Thus I conclude that Mankind's fall was due to this fatal oversight. They stared into the Abyss, sought to harness it's power, and were blinded by it's radiance.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I really don't agree.

While it is clear that there are degrees of scale among pariahs and nulls (some are clearly more nully than others) a common theme in the 40k background is that the untouchable quality derives from their "soulessness."

And it seems wrong to compare tables and chairs (which, as you say, are soulless) with pariahs: tables and chairs are not living things. It is repeatedly stated within the literature (such as it is) on untouchables that the horror experienced by psykers in their presence derives from the fact that their presence is accompanied by a total absence of the warp signature one would expect to see in a living thing . Psykers don't start having fits in the presence of tables and chairs, nor do normal humans.. .but they probably would if the table started talking to them. It's the mind-expanding weirdness of the whole existence of pariahs that freaks psykers out: like creepy walking and talking tables and chairs, they should just not exist.

The definition of a pariah to me seems to be "a living creature without a soul." I've not seen any evidence in the canon to support your new category of a "hollow" living creature. Even Servitors remain unremarkable to psykers...presumably because, whatever happens to their minds, their soul remains untouched.

You speculate that false men may lack souls...well I guess it depends what you mean by "false man." Let's say you have a vat-grown human body that has been bio-engineered never to grow a brain. This is, after all, how Cherubim are created. I would agree with you that such a construct wouldn't have a soul. But once you transplant the brain of a small felid or avian into it - as we are told in the Inquisitor's handbook, Cherubim are created in this way - it would have a soul, albeit the soul of a rather confused kitten.

Compare and contrast that with a true clone: it's not the same person as its progenitor, it will share the same genes, but it will always be different in millions of tiny ways. There's nothing to suggest in the canon that a clone in some way "shares" the same soul with its creator. In fact the opposite seems true: to a limited degree, the Primarchs were stitched together from hybrid DNA, including big chunks of the Emperor's own. Are they soulless? Of course not.

You talk of how we are unsure of how souls are created...well I'd agree with that. but to suggest "it seems far too convenient for them to coalesce spontaneously at some point during a false-man's development" seems a step too far. How about "Souls appear in clones at about the same stage in their develoment as they appear in regular humans" as a rough rule of thumb? That really doesn't seem too far fetched.

Part of the problem arises from the fact that Pariahs were created as a means of having a cool new anti-psyker type assassin (the Culexus) without much apparent thought given to how the underlying mechanics of all this would work. Dan Abnett developed the idea nicely, but some later authors seem to get the whole idea a bit confused. I recently read "Nemesis" in which one of the characters is a cloned pariah....who is also repeatedly described (in my view totally inaccurately) as a "psyker." Now I'm sure there's a way to retcon that so it all makes sense (perhaps Pariahs are nulls who can manipulate the warp whereas untouchables are nulls who cannot) but you do wonder why this wasn't all dealt with a little more tidily.

So to summarise, I don't think clones need be soulless. I'd agree with Fulminarex that there does seem to be a "thing" creeping into 40k writing to suggest they are, but I think it's to be deplored on the grounds that it's uneccesary. Only my opinion, of course!

Lightbringer said:

Um... check out the Obliviates from Creatures Anathema, which are specifically mentioned as not being significantly different from a combat servitor except in presentation. It's unclear if normal servitor conversion will destroy or simply eject the soul if applied to a human as opposed to vat-grown flesh made for the purpose, but servitors appear to lack souls.

Lightbringer said:

Tables and chairs are not living things, true... but it isn't a matter of expecting something to be there which isn't. Afterall, a psyker could be oblivious of a Null's existence, yet still find that creature unaffected by the powers of the warp, yet inanimate objects (which lack their own presence in the warp; any presence they have can be attributed to the echoes of perception) remain subject to the powers of a psyker. The C'Tan and the Necrons alike are entirely soulless, yet are affected by the Warp.

Lightbringer said:

It's a leap, yes, but I don't see it as being a particularly large one. A pariah/null/blank has a specific metaphysical effect upon the universe not shared by any of the untold masses of soulless objects, which includes animate, sapient machinery (the silica animus/Abominable Intellect problem and the Necrons most obviously here) which are quite capable of thought and emotion. That specific effect leads me to believe that there is something more to a pariah that defines them than simply the absence of a psychic presence in the Warp.

Lightbringer said:

I don't see it as an issue. Continuing from my previous paragraph, it stands to reason that Pariahs exist as a mutation that interacts with and subverts the genetic component of a given being's psychic potential (accounting for their rarity - they're a minority within a minority). In that regard, a pariah will have the psyker gene and the pariah gene both - the latter to corrupt the effects of the former.

Beyond that, though, many of the earliest descriptions I've seen for pariahs - namely Culexus Assassins - depict something with a presence in the Warp... just not one in the conventional sense, a howling abyss that consumes psychic energy nearby like the notion of a black hole consumes light. That suggests, to me, a negative psychic presence, a description which seems to far better fit their influence over reality. So, if a pariah has a negative presence and any normal living creature has a positive one (even a tiny one), then that leaves a space left between for things which have neither, encompassing C'Tan, inanimate objects, machinery and other artificial things.

I'm not sure we're actually disagreeing too much here, really!

I think your view and my view of the characteristics of a pariah are not a million miles apart, but (and I'm paraphrasing you here, so please correct me if I'm wrong!) you dispute that pariahs are solely defined by the lack of a soul. Fair enough. I don't know what defines Pariahs, so your guess is as good as mine. Pariahs are (in my view) inconsistently portrayed in the background, probably because the underlying mechanic has not been fully explained. I guess one thing that supports your view is that there appear to be different d egrees of Pariah. Some untouchables merely make people uncomfortable, others drive people rabidly insane. If there is a single mechanism at work here, and that is soulessness, then I accept that logically this alone doesn't explain the difference of degree. Either you've got a soul or you haven't.

That said, I like your concept of a null variation to the "standard" human genetic profile that creates untouchables in a baseline human and pariahs in psykers. Very neat reconciliation of concepts there. In fact...I REALLY like this idea.

My key point is that in my view, pariahs and clones are different things. Just because something is cloned, it does not, in my view, automatically give it the powers/advantages/defects of a pariah, nor does it necessarily mess with the clone's soul.

To go beyond that involves a detailed discssion about the nature of the soul, though, and I'm a bit leery of such debates as they have the potential to be endlessly subjective..."Blood Angels on Pinheads..."

I have put this out there for consideration, and will put it out there again= Since it seems anything can happen with a Clone when it is decanted, perhaps they should be handled on a scale similar to the way quality in weapons/equipment works;

You have your difficult Medicae (or whatever) roll at Very Hard. Add any equipment modifiers (maybe you have an awesome exo-womb from the DA) and roll. A failure would be a complete failure. Period. Success and degrees of success indicate how many mutations you have to roll on the mutation table. Start with a baseline of 5 rolls, and remove one for every degree of success. Oila! A clone!

This is starting to get into the realm of Imperium Theology, or even of modern theology, when we wonder if a clone would have a soul. Do animals have souls? In 40K, souls exist, but do they really make sense? Why do you have a soul, but your dog does not?

And does a machine spirit have a soul?

On and on.....

I've read most of the posts here - skimmed some - but what are the problems with cloning exactly?

For those saying "Clones are people too." - okay, are you saying that if I clone myself - I'll get an exact copy of my personality too? My "soul"? I like the "Jug" explanation - just because it's look like me, doesn't mean it is me.

The OP question was to see if he could get an "Extra Life" for his character. It seems evident that he wanted to simply transfer over - like a magical simulacrum from D&D.

It seems he was arguing from the view of "Previous Body Dead" - "New Body Gets 'Soul' "

But some people seem to be arguing from their real world point.. not from the game's point.

===

Why would the warp affect it? Because the warp affects everything - and seems particularly drawn to things that are susceptible to alteration.

Arguing in 40K terms - not real world - cloning would be of a flesh form (a jug). You're trying to fill that jug with a soul that was born in a natural state (the PC). What you're really trying - it seems - is soul transference. Which would take a heavy dose of Dark Age or Xenos tech.

Now - it seems obvious to me why the warp would alter that. The soul exists in the warp - or touches upon the warp. To transfer the soul - it would have to go through the warp (like a ship) and "land" in the new body in the material universe. And - it's going through without a Gellar Field.

Now - I see room for all sorts of things to piggy back their way into a new host body.

===

Or, if we're going to argue that clones have souls already - then transferring would be impossible. I'd say you'd actually kill yourself in a very 40K style.

Your hubris at trying to subvert the natural laws of life - ends with you staring at an already occupied body as fiends of the warp surround you and drag your soul kicking and screaming into the abyss where they devour you for all eternity. Opps..

But in no way would I say to the PC - "Okay, but the clone is the same character."

===

BTW - twins are the same only genetically (and that's only identical twins - not fraternal). They're not the same person.

Medhia Nox said:

No, I'm not saying the clone is the same person. I'm saying he has the same genes, but, as with identical twins, this doesn't guarantee the same person, as the formative experiences that go towards creating a living being will vary on a case by case basis.

Medhia Nox said:

Yes, I agree this is what seems to be being asked. And I agree that "Previous Body Dead" - "New Body Gets 'Soul' "doesn't hold water. But I don't think cloning oneself, removing the brain of the clone and having a full brain transplant into the clone body is totally impossible, given 40k tech.

Medhia Nox said:

I think the "in 40k terms" issue is a trope that can be taken too far. Are you suggesting, for example, that the act of placing a consciousness in a new body automatically causes warp interference? Because Space Marine dreadnoughts are technically a machine body, and human brains are placed in these all of the time. And cat brains are placed into Cherubim...human brains are placed into virtually complete robotic servitors... Dog brains are placed into cybermastiffs, and I'm sure plenty of other examples.

Organic brain transfer into another body in fact seems to be a routine procedure in 40k tech. There is no evidence to support any assertion that this procedure causes warp interference. In fact in a society so nervous of chaotic contamination, one would imagine that these procedures would end in days if there was such a link...and they clearly haven't.

My reading of the "soul" equation as it affects cloning is quite simple:

(1) Rogue Trader A decides to clone himself in order to extend his lifespan. Using outlawed Heretek, he creates a clone, B, who grows in a vitae-womb tank until 9 months from cell creation, then is de-tanked, and raised in a creche as a healthy infant until he is 18 years old. A and B have the same genes, but different souls, and very different life experiences, making them different persons. In game terms, I'd use the same numbers rolled on character creation for all physical attributes, as modified by homeworld etc, but different mental rolls to reflect their distinct personalities.

(2) A then has B seized and placed in an operating theatre. B is sedated alongside A, and both have their brains removed. B's brain is disposed of as medical waste, killing B's soul. A's soul continues to survive, as does the brain in a dreadnought or vitae-tank, by virtue of the advanced tech in the medicae facility. A's brain is then transplanted into B's body. A (and his soul) survive, with a new body.

Now I can see why people might find A's actions distasteful, and want to throw in some deus ex machina of warp interference as punishment for his hubris, but I don't see any reason why on the face of it this approach shouldn't work. After all, there have in real life actually been successful experiments on full brain transplants in monkeys:-

"In 1963, a group of scientists from Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine in Cleveland, Ohio,[3] led by Robert J. White, a neurosurgeon and a professor of neurological surgery who was inspired by the work of Vladimir Demikhov, performed a highly controversial operation to transplant the head of one monkey onto another's body. The procedure was a success to some extent, with the animal being able to smell, taste, hear, and see the world around it. The operation involved cauterizing arteries and veins carefully while the head was being severed to prevent hypovolemia. Because the nerves were left entirely intact, connecting the brain to a blood supply kept it chemically alive. The animal survived for some time after the operation, even at times attempting to bite some of the staff."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_transplant See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole-body_transplant

Medhia Nox said:

I'd say you'd kill your clone in a very 40k style, not yourself. But as I say, I can have some sympathy with GMs who might want to punish a player for putting the poor innocent clone thrugh all of that. I'd agree that the character might be changed by doing this, though...perhaps a hefty whack of corruption points, and/or even insanity points as they come to terms both with what they've done and the new body they've got.

Medhia Nox said:

Exactly. That's what I've been saying all along! Just because A and B share the same genes - either because A is a clone of B or because they are identical twins, it does not mean they are the same person, or that they share the same soul.

Lightbringer said:

One thing to note is that, typically, it seems to be the response of the person perceiving the untouchable that defines part of the response - all normal humans have some baseline psychic potential, even if it cannot manifest as anything significant, and thus an indeterminate, vague sense - perhaps reasoned as something as simple as inherent empathy for, and understanding of, other humans - may rebel against a nearby untouchable, perceiving something inherently 'wrong' and incongruous with their rudimentary psychic perception while seeing nothing out of the ordinary with their normal sight... the disconnect between those two simultaneous perceptions would logically cause more than a little apprehension, which only grows more pronounced the more psychically-potent the viewer is.

Lightbringer said:

I'm not stating, suggesting or even implying that pariahs and clones are the same thing; what I'm suggesting is that there may be no inherent guarantee that the aethyric presence (soul is perhaps a loaded term, one used by humans in-setting in this context, but not necessarily the most accurate one) of an artificially-created human being (a 'false-man', to use the term I picked to cover artificial humans of various kinds in the new Origin Path entries in Into the Storm) will be intact, stable or otherwise 'normal'.

Given that 'good luck' has often been described as a manifestation of low-level psychic potential, and that two of the most significant instances of large-scale genetic engineering done since the Heresy (Afriel-strain humans, and the Lamenters chapter) are noted as being somehow inherently unlucky, some degree of warp influence seems to be involved. Luck, afterall, isn't genetic.

Personally, the idea of some form of discord between body and warp presence as a possible side-effect of extreme genetic engineering, cloning and a few other life sciences seems quite appropriate, IMO, and makes the creations of the Emperor that much more significant...

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Actually, it's as much a matter of aethyric dynamics as theology - the 'soul' as it exists with regards to the Warp is a real thing, as tangible as anything can be while within the Warp. Where the actual warp-presence of a living being overlaps with the spiritual concept of the soul as described in the sermons of the Ecclesiarchy, as opposed to, say, the spiritualism and science of the Eldar... is another matter entirely.

The initial poster said he wanted the cloned body in case "his character did not make it back from the last battle." My issue all along has not been with "if" you can transplant a brain into a cloned body. I think that with all the servitor tech that should not be an issue. But his initial question is if he can DIE and then have his dead brain transplanted into a cloned body. I would say no, since that would be necromancy, as you would be reviving a dead being, if that is even possible.

So if he dies in battle, how do you keep his brain alive long enough to transplant it? Do you have to have a team of servitors following you around to remove said brain when you die? If you have a functioning brain, why not just pop it into any number of more powerful constructs or better bodies? What is so special about your original body that can't be and already is made better by science?

And why not just chalk up your death to game play, which does happen, and roll up another character and play from a different angle? Seriously, though this entire discussion is interesting, the basic reason for the discussion is juvenile. In any great story, characters will die or end in some way, often to the betterment of the story. If this never happens, where does the story go? This is like the Death of Spock in Wrath of Khan. That was one of the greatest Treks ever, and it killed a central thematic character. Then, to the detriment of the story and the betterment of the box office, they brought him back in 3, in a bizaare manner, which also heralded into Trek all of the stupid time travel crap that they now use in every movie it seems. I say let that player die, even let him think he has succeeded in the operation, then have the clone run away as an NPC, insane, to forever haunt and attack the party.