I just want to know how the developers came up with the Reloading times for Ballistic weapons. I don't want to sound condescending or tiffy, but some things just don't seem right to me.

Before people get into the whole 'You don't know what its like to reload under fire' or 'you don't know how its done', I will let you know I am speaking as a Infantry soldier of the Canadian Armed forces, who has served for 3 years within the RegForce.

I know sometimes things get glossed over, and maybe the writers just did their best to guess at the workings of weapons and put an appropriate stat or statistic in to represent what they believed. But some of what is listed is so incredibly (pardon) ass-backwards that it wakes me up from sleep at nights.

The fact that its listed that the Ursid Heavy Stubber (In my mind a medium machine gun) can be reloaded in one full round, while an Autogun (Combat rifle) takes two full rounds, seems drastically wrong when I pull out my personal experience with both those class of weapon systems. It also calls into question whether or not the writer actually consulted proper resources (Yes, I know most are just a port over from Dark Heresy).

I believe the next subject to the errata should be revamping the entire armoury for both Dark Heresy, and Rogue trader, as well as any other setting for this game system. Not for damage or any other factor beyond conflicting rules and for reload times.

Examples of things that make no sense and how to go about fixing them.

1.Basic Weapons (Bolt, Las, Auto)
A Boltgun is a single full action to reload, yet works the same way as an Autogun save for ammunition. The bolter and stormbolter are greatly heavier then an auto rifle, over double the unloaded weight as well with their ammunition. Yet for some reason it is 5 seconds faster to reload them as listed in the rules. Same goes for the Lasgun, which will have the same drills minus the need to smack a forward assist (which most people forget anyways when reloading). To fix, make the bolt gun 2 full rounds unless the user is a certain strength. Keep, the Lasgun as is and make the Autogun have the same reload time.

Reason I think this:

Here is a example of the combat rifle drills I have been taught from basic training, omitting any special quirks that I've picked up from battle school, or once I arrived at my regiment.

Weapon fire, Weapon stops
Put weapon on safe/Check the chamber
Bolt fully to the rear (empty magazine)
Press magazine release, remove magazine, check magazine
Place magazine in magazine holder, remove fresh magazine, check magazine
Seat magazine in magazine housing,
Hit the bolt catch, bolt goes forward, hit forward assist,
Weapon off safe, continue firing.

People who have never used a magazine fed firearm will sometimes take up to 15 seconds on their first try, but after a week of repetition during training 5-6 seconds becomes standard. I know men who can do it in half that, but I can see how that would be represented by the 'Rapid-Reload' Talent. The process is speed up even further by not recovering the empty magazine and just letting it drop to preform an emergency reload.

2. Heavy stubbers
Both Patterns of Heavy stubber would operate the exact same way, as both are belt fed. The drills would be the same, meaning the load times would be the same. While having a box mounted to one would cut the need to have a second man handling your munitions, linking and unlinking the belt for the gunner, it certainly would take longer then 5 seconds to remove the empty box, retrieve a fresh ammunition box from where ever you stored it, load the belt, pull the cocking leaver, and get back to shooting. The advantage of a mounted box is that the gunner is not running around with a trailing belt of ammo (Which could break off, catch something, get in the way) but would still take at least 2 full rounds to reload, at least.

Drill for LMG and MMG for reloading
Weapon fires, weapon stops
Cock the weapon, put it on safe, take out of the shoulder (Always fired when braced or prone)
open feed tray cover, sweep feed tray, Close feed cover
Put in shoulder, Aim down range, fire weapon
Out of shoulder, remove box (If box is present), retrieve fresh box or belt.
Seat box (If box is present), open feed tray cover.
Inspect the belt, lay belt in feed tray, close feed tray cover,
Put into shoulder, Pull cocking handle, off safe, fire.

The process is speed up or slowed down depending on if you have a number 2 with your gun to handle the ammo and the actual reloading of the belt. What I would suggest though would be to change the description of the Ursid to take a 'magazine', like the old style Bren guns, to facilitate a similar reload time to autogun and the drasticlly smaller ammunition capacity. Or, simply push it to two-rounds to reload a box, increase the Orthlack reload time to four-rounds to represent the difficulty opening a fresh ammo can and dealing with a larger more difficult belt. A rule should also be added for assisted reloading, halving the reload time if the heavy weapon has a number 2 on hand.

I'll get into more about this later, if anyone else had been having similar feelings or thoughts. Besides... don't get me started on the missile launchers.

Obligatory 'firearms in the 41st Millenium are not necessarily anything like modern firearms to operate and reload' post.

Errant said:

Of course, a 40k weapon needs winches and prayer to get reloaded

I think TK-4117 is on to something here and I enjoyed reading about the reloading. I said no to the military so I got no firearms-training at all, I would probably spend minimum 3 "rounds", maybe a minute++!, to reload a weapon the first time.

So upping the reload-time could mean "less fun time" as "fun time" equals "dakka time" for all those stubjacks out there. It also introduces more realism, which I'm up for. I'm sold, where do I sign?

Errant said:

Looking at the picture of the stock autogun on 120 of the rule book I can see it has all the features of a Fully-automatic combat rifle. I see its magazine fed, which means it is operated with an external ammunition source for faster reloading. That magazine will have a spring in it that forces the round inside the magazine to push to the top, though are held in place by a choke at the top of the magazine, usually a crimp in the metal or plastic, to prevent the rounds from simply shooting out on their own. When the magazine is 'seated' into the magazine housing, the magazine release leaver locks into place on a notch or hole somewhere on the magazine itself to hold it in place.

I see their is a cocking handle on the side of the weapon, which to me speaks of a gas piston instead of rotating bolt (looking up yourselves, not putting in the para's for description) which can be ether or seeing I have not seen the inside of the weapon. So, once a magazine is 'loaded' I would believe that cocking handle is pulled back, moving the the weapons bolt assembly and other attacked parts back, which push the striking hammer into the locked position. Then, when released, the bolt moves forward and collects a round from the magazine, pushing it up into chamber and locking it into place with a little catch that grips the groove at the base of the round. I don't see a forward assist, which is a button that drives a spike grip down into the chamber to push agisnt groves on the side of the bolt to make sure its fully forward, which again makes me believe it is a gas-piston.

The weapon is now armed, and I see two buttons just above the trigger assembly, one of which is probably a double safety and the other a fire selector (I say double safety because usually 'safe' is a position on the fire selector).

I can always understand the argument of 'not anything like' when it comes to weapons like plasma guns, flame throwers (which have no analogue in our age), and exotic alien and high tech weapons. But dirt simple projectile weapons will always have remarkably similar functions. I personaly doubt a stub revolver works anyway diffrent from the one I do sport shooting with, unless you would like to run down the math that the writer possibly conceived to come up with the numbers they did.

P.S. The pray for reload for a lasgun and autogun are the same in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting primer, and if you read any of the guard books are often mulled over under your breath or in your head when you are in the middle of combat fighting for your life (Waiting your ten seconds to reload your basic firearm while an ork is charging you down),

I think that you caught up on an error TK-4117.

Both DH and the Inquisitor book list the autogun as having a reload of 2. Yet the RT book says 2 full rounds. Sounds to me that they made a typo here. I think this is one for the living Errata.

Sister Callidia said:

I'm guessing you meant Full instead of 2 (and you'd be correct).

Combat rounds are arbitrary lengths of time anyway. Examine the other actions that you can perform and see how many times you can do them in a round. Worried about reloading? What about shooting single shots? Does it really take 6 seconds to shoot each round? How many 3 round bursts can you do with an SMG in 6 seconds? What about swinging a sword? Only once every 6 seconds?

I prefer fixing a problem instead of accommodating to it. Actions are representations to complex interactions that your character can make within a frame of 6 seconds. Letting go a mass of 3 round burst with an SMG would be seen as a fully automatic attack in mechanics, a semi-auto attack a quick succession of single semi-automatic shots. A single melee attack could be seen as just one swing, or many.

What I'm getting at with the reloading issue that I'm having is that it is an action which is very straight forward. Their is little room for interpretation to ejecting a magazine, replacing it, then charging your weapon again to keep on firing. Because of this lack of room for creativity, I am putting down what I see as 'realistic' for the game system.

Combat rifles are primary weapons that you might never have to switch out, allowing you to carry out a full combat without needing to switch to a secondary, so a single full action while in cover, or a half action with a veteran user works quite well for roleplay. Heavy weapons like machine guns and missile launchers are attention heavy and complex as they are devastating. But after they are used, they should leave the player at a disadvantage that would force a player to choose between reloading (a process that might leave him exposed for a few combat rounds) or abandoning his weapon in favour of a secondary weapon.

Hence, my belief that autogun's (Which I am told know I was right about as it is a typo) should be a Full action reload, and the two heavy stubbers should be 2 & 3 full round actions respectively without assistance. It is my same belief with missile launchers, which don't allow for the same ease of reloading as a pistol or battle rifle (2 full for replacing a missile, 3 full for a clip of misses)

Do we have an official ruling on this reload topic from FFG staff? I totally agree on the autogun - should be 1 full action.

In reality, I can load a 5.56mm magazine in an M-4 or A-2 in about 5 seconds.

Thanks!!

all thats from a Reality POV.

Thankfully this is a game, and reality is paid lip service to.

With 40k, dont forget things like the machine spirits ejecting clips automatically soon as the last bullets fired, Marines being far more trained than we might think possible, technology being far superior (after all, may of the STC's are from the Golden Age prior to the Age of Strife/dark age) yet also far less superior in a bizarre self contradictory manner and so on.

Loading times are fine unless you want to get in to the gritty urbaness of Twilight 2k and what have you.

Evn though this is sci-fi. the 4oK weaponry is based on reality - at least the stub weapons.

No way a belt-fed MG (heavy stubber) is going to load faster or even at the same rate as one magazine for an autogun.

I thought I saw a post in one of the FF RT forums where there was an "official" response saying that the reload time for the Orthlack was supposed to be 3 Full*, the Ursid was supposed to be 2 Full* and the Autogun was supposed to be Full*. Couldn't tell you where though.

*All time measurements were the player doing it alone.

Nalroth said:

Can anyone please send the link to this thread with FFG response? Thanks.

I sent the question. When I get an answer I will post it here.

The answer to my question from the FF Staff:

"Glad to help. As a matter of fact, the regular Autogun does have a reload time of Full Action, but the two heavy stubbers are as listed in the book. One of the benefits of he Ursid is that it has an easy-to-reload clip, hence the quick reload.

Hope that helps!"

So I was wrong about the others, but at least we have an answer to the Autogun question.

Excellent and thank you.

Think most of the reload times are ok for what they are, given they are sort of a nebulous average of the Imperium of Man's most common users, which will mostly be inbred ferals, clueless imperial worlders, glue sniffing hivers and other varieties of cretins. There is one thing in that most martial careers include which reflects on them getting it done quickly and correctly- Rapid Reload as a trait, which would come from drill and long term familiarity with weapons.

One thing I would like to see in place is the option to link more belts of ammunition together to avoid having to do reloading... its sort of the purpose of linked ammunition