Originally I thought item decks were meant to be shuffled every time a card was drawn.

One of the reasons why i believed this was because of Ashcans Pete's Scrounge ability. It seemed odd to me that after an item card was discarded that Ashcan Pete could choose/purchase that same item by drawing from the bottom of the deck.

Instead, I assumed his ability was meant to be a sort of watered down version of the other 3 shopper abilities where Pete would first look at the bottom card and either -purchase the bottom card- or -draw 3 cards from the top as usual-. This seemed balanced to me considering he could use this ability at any of the 3 shops (or draw item encounters).

I have been getting the feeling that my original interpretation of his ability is wrong, as well as the shuffling of item decks.

1. Are item decks never shuffled? (unless an encounter states to search for a specific item or item of choice) Exactly which decks are meant to be shuffled and when? (I know the arkham encounter cards are to be shuffled before drawing)

2. Is the purpose of Ashcan petes scrounge ability to allow him to choose/purchase recently discarded items? Also, when drawing one or more item cards, can the player choose to draw more than one card from the bottom? Do they need to declare if they are drawing from the top or bottom and then draw all cards from that side or can they mix it up? (example 2 from the top, 1 from the bottom in the case of shopping/ drawing 3 cards)

Any clarification on this matter would be greatly appreciated. For some reason I cant get my head around how his ability is supposed to work.

Dave99 said:

Arkham Encounter decks are meant to be shuffled before drawing. Other decks aren't. You discard cards drawn from them to the bottom (there are a few minor exceptions to this rule in later sets though). If you search a deck for a specific card (as opposed to a type of card), you then reshuffle the deck after finding it.

That's it!

Oh... Ashcan's ability lets him hunt for good items on the bottoms of decks, it also allows him to exploit certain items that are discarded by repurchasing and reusing them.

Based on his card text "When Pete draws from the Common item, Unique item, or Spell deck, he may draw from either the top or the bottom of that deck, his choice." I'd say you can't split the draw, since it says "either" not and. On the other hand, this is FFG... It doesn't really matter much either way though. No, wait, actually now that I think of it, it's massively exploitable if you can split the draw (since it would allow you to get around the must purchase an item rule), so I doubt very much that the draw can be split (and the words of the card support this opinion).

thanks for the reply Avi

So basically,
If someone had just used a powerful discard item like 'dynamite' or 'Powder of Ibn-Ghazi', ashcan could immediately goto the store and purchase that item again, then after he uses it, can go right back to the same store and purchase it again... and again... ?

I never realized how strong his ability was. I guess it works both ways though, if noone draws any good discard items you could go the whole game and never have a use for scrounge.

Also, for thematic purposes, you'll notice he's a drifter. He's "scrounging" for stuff other people threw away (discarded). That's why they made his power the way it is.

Avi_dreader said:

It absolutely can be split any way Pete chooses. Every time he draws a card from one of those decks, he picks which side of the deck for each card. Not sure how you think that's "getting around" the must-purchase-an-item rule.

jgt7771 said:

+1. If Ashcan visits a store and has to draw 3 cards and choose one to buy, each card is one draw. He can choose to draw from the top or the bottom for each card, but he still has to draw 3 and then choose one to buy. I don't see how this circumvents the normal shopping rules other than he can choose the bottom if he knows something good was just discarded. He still ends up with three cards and has to buy one of them.

And yes, while he CAN keep going back to re-buy dynamite or some such, assuming he has the cash each time, he still has to travel back to the store from wherever he used it. Games can be lost if the investigators have too many places to be and not enough time, so Ashcan running back to the store every two or three turns could very well be the end of the game. It's not broken, it's just an option he has.

I'll point out to you that the other deck yankers (like Bob and Drake) have powers that specifically say when they draw 1 or more items their power activates. Ashcan Pete's power just says whenever he draws so yes it can be split.

I too cannot see how this gets around the must buy 1 item rule unless you know for a fact that the 3 items on the bottom of the deck are outside your price range but purposly drawing them is a pretty dumb move.

Much better items to dig for are tomes and elder signs. 1 use weapons are a big waste of time and money to go and buy unless you are absolutly desperate and need that plus right then. The king in yellow and old journal are Pete's favorite since they are cheap (he has money issues) and produce lots of clue tokens. Eldown shards and dole chants are amazing too if pete has the finances and a little lore help . While elder signs are not usually down there since they are returned to box after using he can sometimes pick one up at the beggining of the game or when someone else goes shopping and draws multiple of them.

In fact one of his best uses is when someone else goes shopping and either cannot afford (or draws more than 1) a really good item(s) and is forced to sen it to the the bottom of the deck. Pete can come in later (as long as it doesn't get buried) and dig it up. We play that when multiple items are drawn they are discarded in the order that the group wishes.

What I'd like to know is how do people handle it when Pete draws his starting items but Bob or Jack are in. We play that Bab and Jack draw their items First and Pete has a choice of a random draw, the bottom of the deck or the item that Jack or Bob discards.

Dave99 said:

Well... It's more problematic with items like Old Journal, King in Yellow, Eltdown Shards, Dhole Chants, or Livre d'Ivon (or however it's spelled).

jgt7771 said:

Well... It isn't exactly (at least not in the unique deck), but in the common item deck you can basically use it to easily search the common item deck if you have a discardable $1 item. In the unique item deck it's a bit more difficult to exploit (you'd either need a King in Yellow, or a 2-3 dollar tome). It'd allow you to search for Elder Signs very cheaply. Two dollars per two card flips is pretty good (especially if you'll be getting a spell out of it each time, or some clues).

I'm not sure if I'd say it can absolutely be split. I'll ask about it for the FAQ (if it ever gets done). It depends on if you read "draws" as an event telling you to draw, or individual drawn cards within an event ::shrug:: reading and rereading it, I'm convinced it's ambiguous as currently written and can use clarification.

Avi_dreader said:

I guess I just don't have a very good mental handle on how powerful this is. Even without the "must buy 1 item" rule I would consider sitting in the store and mining the deck an abysmally boring way to spend the game, I've certainly never done it myself. This "trick" strikes me as equally boring and 1/3rd slower, but without seeing the percentages on how often it helps the investigators win, I'm willing to concede you know better than me. I suppose FFG felt it was a big enough problem to introduce the "must buy 1 item" bit in the first place.

If that's a major concern in your games, though, perhaps consider a different house rule to limit shopping sprees. Remove the "must buy 1 item" rule and add in something like "may not shop at the same store twice in a row" or "if you do nothing but shop this turn, draw 4 cards instead of 3 and become delayed." I suppose that second one could be lawyered around by moving out to the streets and back again, depending on your gaming group, but you get the idea. If Ashcan's ability is really that big a deal, use a different house rule that will slow him down, too.

Or house rule away the ambiguity about his drawing and say he must take them all from one end or the other, I suppose that would be easiest.

Avi_dreader said:

I certainly won't argue the idea that FFG's rules aren't always the clearest (especially on older games like AH) but for my money I think Allstar is spot on. Other "card draw" abilities like Bob and Drake say "when you draw one or more" which pretty clearly makes the entire draw one event. Ashcan just says "when you draw a card" which implies each card is separate.

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong - I have at other times seen and even supported the argument that FFG doesn't always use consistent wording for similar effects. I'm just saying this way makes sense to me, in this particular case.

Steve-O said:

Heh. It's not really a "major concern"...that's just how Avi thinks. He's kind of a Lawful Evil Rules Lawyer, a Master of the Loophole. If there is the SLIGHTEST breeze blowing between the words, Avi will find it and fill it with unstable dynamite.

“The Rules don’t say that!”
“Ah, but the Rules don't say THAT either, do they?”
“But…that’s cheating!”
“How? Show me where I’ve violated the rules. Got my book right here.” >flipflipflip< “Gimme a page number.”
“…b-but…that’s not thematic…”
“THEMATIC?! THIS…IS…ARKHAM!!!”

jgt7771 said:

Ahhh, I wish I could frame this post and put it on my wall :') however I'm pretty sure there's a rule about framing wall posts somewhere.

@Steve-O

If you're delayed, you still get encounters (i.e. shopping), so delaying Ashcan *in* the store would not solve the problem. A house rule not allowing him to to shop next turn or restricting his draw to top or bottom would be an easy fix.

Well as long as we're all talking about him I might as well add some stuff about Pete.

Pete has always been on of my favorite characters but not without his issues. His 5 5 Fight Will split is uniquely his alone as of Insumouth and he starts with a total combined san+stam of 11. Unfortunatley he pays too much of his starting money for this as his ally (while having a dog with you is awsome) is pretty weak compared to other allies. Also his speed of 3 is killer and his sneak of 6 is more or less useless coupled with his low speed and focus. I believe that after base arkham the creators realized that 6 sneak only works on nich characters which is why the only other 2 char with sneak 6 are Wendy (sneaking embodied) and Trish (speed and sneak on different highly adjustable tracks).

As for his ability it's highly abusable if you want to play that game. Pair him with Daisy and in a few turns you can have both alchemic processes, and any (every) other power spell you want at the cost of a few turns (note I always play all item are in from all sets, makes you see a more interesting array of items in each game).

Even if he can't split his power while shopping he still allows for pretty easy hunting for elder signs. Just have a bunch of people (who I assume have nothing better to do cause there's a lul in clue tokens for example) go shopping with 0 money. If anyone finds an elder sign send it to the very bottom of the deck. Then have someone give pete 5 bucks to buy it back next turn, no splitting requiered. Does it work? Probably especially if there aren't a lot of clues to be had. Is it fun? not really since no one is really doing anything or having real encounters. Would I do it in one of my games? Only if it was imperitive that I win the game and clearly we NEED an elder sign, otherwise nope.

I would also like to mention how fun it is to have a crobar with him (though you need to "rules lawyer" an iffy rule in his favor). Get him blessed with max sneak (if you can raise his sneak even more with items, skills or allies then even better). Now discard the crobar to use its ability. He gets 4 blessed dice and for every success he can draw a common item. But wait he can draw from the bottom of the deck and what happens to be there? Why it's the crobar he just discarded, why not take it back and if he's lucky he's rolled more than one success he can steal another common item (or 2 or 3). Well that's over and done with, what next? Well I still have a crobar (which requiers no movement points to use btw). Why not try again.... and again... and (yada yada yada you see where this is going). If he manages to find both crobars and a makeup kit while doing this just hand him the entire common item deck cause nothing except 2 super unlucky rolls in a row can stop him. Maxed sneak and blessed he has a 8.33% chance of failing his roll (its actually 6.25%, he has a 1/16 chance of all 4 dice failing but when you ignore the 4/16 chance of rolling 1 success and breaking even it's actually a 8.33% chance of failing vs coming out on top) so his chance of being stopped is less than 5% with 2 crowbars.

The iffy rule I'm refering to is when an item is discarded. The text on the card and so many other cards makes it seem like it would be discarded imediatly and thus be there for scronging. However there is another case where it is very publicly agreed upon that it is discarded after the new investigator card is drawn from the top or bottom. Lola's ability is very very weak if it is discarded first and then you draw. I'm willing to accept the ruling that it isn't there because otherwise her ability is useless and Pete + crobar is way too good. However I don't care what anybody says if you ever see Pete with 2 crobars then he can pull this off and if he ever gets arested just go and buy one back and try again (helps a lot if you are the deputy cause you get arrest imunity and all the movement you want)

allstar64 said:

Oh my... I never even realized you could exploit his ability to search for Elder Signs like that (although I vaugely recall a rule somewhere saying you need at least one dollar to shop, I might be imagining that, not that it matters for unique items anyways). Hee hee hee ::rubs fly hands::

Deputy is not immune to arrest. Only immune to arrest during the curfew. That's the only exception.

You should not be able to use the General Store or Curiositie Shoppe ability if you have no money.

Steve-O said:

It's certainly not exciting, per se. But prior to the errata applying the "must buy 1 item" to the Curiosities Shop, diving for Elder Signs was such an optimal strategy that if someone wasn't doing it you were seriously shooting yourself in the foot.

Scrounging doesn't particularly concern me, though. I don't think there is a consumable unique item that would let you do this cheaply. And none of the other shopping decks really have this problem. So you could, theoretically, take $1 and go diving until you find it, then cook the deck for the scrounger to grab it. But that is, after all, his ability. It opens up a strategy that would otherwise be less viable... but that's true for all investigator abilities.