Has anyone developed a workable Flaw/Disadvantage system? A way to start with extra XP by taking drawbacks?

Ascension sort of has this with its "enemies" talent. As I understand it, taking one of these offers reduced XP for other Paragon Talents, Mastered Skills etc.

Lightbringer said:

I think Rogue Trader had that as well. Or something like it. I am thinking of a series of traits/drawbacks or flaws that allows a starting PC to gain some extra XP to "build/mold" the PC they want and add a little more differences between characters.

Right now Im looking at simple things based on the background packages. Minor characteristic reductions, extra insanity points/corruption points, reduced fate or wounds, fear ratings added to normal things, and so forth. As well as the aforementioned enemy/rival talents.

Using Hero System/DC Heroes as a model, also SLA Industries.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Check the House Rules sub forum. There was a discussion with Gregorius and a few others a short while back about the idea, and I think it was in there.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Personally, my preference regarding flaw/drawback mechanics is more along the lines of the Complications in Mutants & Masterminds, rather than some kind of anti-upgrade that you get XP back for. For those not familiar, a complication might be a particular nemesis (Superman vs Lex Luthor), something you're vulnerable to (Kryptonite), a particular code of ethics or beliefs you must adhere to (Batman won't kill), other responsibilities (such as a day job or school), friends or significant others who might be placed in peril... and so on... it's a good idea for any proper superhero to have a couple of complications, if only to give the GM something extra to work with.

In any situation where one of those complications becomes relevant to the game (the hero's weakness is used against him, his wife/girlfriend/mother is placed in mortal peril, his arch-nemesis has another scheme, or being forced to let the villain escape to stop that bus full of nuns/orphans crash into the dynamite truck), the player gets a Hero Point to spend later in the game. In essence, it's far easier to balance - a player only benefits from his character's flaw when it actually becomes relevant - and is better for encouraging characterful and pertinent flaws (because they'll take effect more often) rather than buying flaws that are largely inconsequential just to get free XP.

Given the presence of Fate Points in 40kRP, I can see a similar mechanic being easy to port across. Have a flaw, suffer from it, get a temporary Fate Point...

7th sea has the same general theme and I definitely like it - you even have to buy your enemies and weaknesses there . The only possible problem is that it only scales well with how often your disadvantage comes out to play, not how severe it is.

I think NO-1:s suggestion is a good one. I am not really fond of flaws for XP since they tend to be very poorly balanced, there are just so many problems that keeps it from working as it should.

First of all, how often does then GM bring flaws out? Say a character has a special enemy as a flaw. How often does that enemy appear? What is the appropriate "punishment" for the extra XP the character got? Bring him out to seldom and the character just got extra XP, to often and the character will just die. Its hard on the GM to keep track of everything and make sure everything is proportional.

Second, is the flaw even a flaw? Even when the GM brings in that enemy, does it really matter? If that enemy hand't been there, wouldn't the GM just make up another one since the characters needs to face someone? Its very easy to fall into a routine where you just replace obstacles with the characters flaws, but in this case the flaw is just an illusion. The obstacle will always be there, you just renamed it. Encountering things from your background is cool, but why should you get XP for obstacles that would have been there either way?

Third, its hard to get them into play. Even with players that are not in any way trying to powergame, and that want their characters to have real flaws, its hard to work in at times. I have seen many flaws become forgotten over time even with experienced players since there is just so much else to keep track of as well.

Thats why flaws that only give you a bonus when they activates are better. If the GM brings the flaw into play very often you get a propper reward for it, but if it becomes forgotten or just never occurs you have not gotten XP for something that didn't matter. I would go further and say that Flaws should be something very substantial and clear cut, and only be allowed to affect things your character is good at. You should never have a flaw that make you terrible at talking to people if you are a FEL 19 Tech-Priest. It just isn't going to matter. You should also not have a flaw that makes you to scared to attack undead in close combat if your are a heavy weapon toting shooting-monster, since you wouldn't want to either way. However a fear of deamons that gives you -10 to WP against them, or for a close-combat character to loath getting close to certain types of people or enemies, those are worthy flaws.

What to reward with depends on how you play. I play with downtime-points (where each point can gain you your salary, reduce IP or CP or lower the difficulty of finding an item, got the idea from someone here on the forum), so I would consider a downtime-point to a good reward for such flaws. After each scenario the players gets an extra point for each flaw that came into play (perhaps more if it came into play several times during a very long scenario).

Actually, thinking it though, some of the starting character packages from the Inquisitor's Handbook are technically a flaw / merit system. I don't have the book to hand, but I recall that some of the packages would offer Talents like Paranoia in exchange for a few insanity points, a combination that represented some horrible incident in the player's history. Mara Dropsite Massacre and Margin Crusade veteran are examples. You could always come up with some combination of these, as long as they make sense in the context of the character's history.

Lightbringer said:

Thats kind of what I was looking for, something that works alongside the packages, but with less benefits. I would rather have the setting created ones hold more weight then players making their own packages.

In general I have noticed with the existing packages is the following:

Bonus to characteristic, skill, talent=100XP

Reduction to characteristic, insanity points, corruption points=negative 100XP

Whateveris left over is the packages cost in initial XPs.

With a disadvantage system you could gain 100XP for such a drawback but all advances purchase with them would cost the same XP as they are for a standard starting character.

Disadvantages, as I am trying to craft them, would also create "history/background" for a character and largely reflect drawbacks a character can gain through play as is, such as injuries, insanities, enemies and so forth which kind of lets the player create that gnarled old veteran who is missing an eye, has difficulty sleeping and is rivals with another mercenary.

Now you can write that background all you want, but its hard to pull off with a starting 400XP character.

Everytime I write a new rule or create something I want to add to the system, I try to doit so it works in the framework of the existing system rules without nullifying the game asit is and so every book that has come out, or will come out, will still be compatible with the new rule.

I was personally thinking about allowing each of my players the option for customizing their background with the peer/rival/good reputation/enemy talents at character creation as a sort of flaw mechanic that allows for fluff outside of the career path.

Rival and Enemy would be -100xp (giving them 100xp), and for Peer and Good Reputation 100xp (costing 100xp), limiting it to two each and has to be form fitting to background fluff. I don't want to get into the whole huge disadvantage thing, because I would have no clue how to balance it (how much reimbursement experience for a missing arm? Or an eye? Or unable to speak? I wouldn't have an idea).

Peacekeeper_b said:

Peacekeeper, if you're looking for ideas I would suggest checking out Eclipse Phase. That has positive and negative 'traits' in Character Creation, the negative ones giving you more points to spend. If I remember correctly, there are quite a few that would port over nicely to DH ranging from being timid or ugly, possessing social stigmas relevant to certain groups, naivete or low pain tolerance, to full blown mental illnesses. A lot of the negative traits have a positive analogue, so I suppose one could also reverse-engineer them from existing DH traits and talents...?

In case you're not aware, Eclipse Phase is Creative Commons so you should be able to download quite easily ... It is also a percentile system so the penalties associated may translate quite well.

Fideru said:

I have been using the permanent injury descriptions as a basis. For example, you can spend 100XP to reduce you off handed penalty to -10 instead of -20 if you lose a hand through criticals.

So I assume the -10 to BS for having one eye could be bought off either of 100XP of in crements of 5 for 100XP each, but the character would still suffer associated penalties based on the eye and what side it is on. And so forth.

I have an extensive background in DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes so am quite familiar with hero points, drawbacks and such. I dont really see a need for advantages, as they seem to be well covered by skills, talents, traits, sorcery and psyker powers.

I will be going over all the Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader books I have looking for similar negative traits already listed in the game for various characters and critters and draw heavily upon them.

As I said before, the goal is to create a set flaws/disadvantages that a beginning PC can draw upon to represent personality, character, background and gain some bonus XP to justify a any associated penalty.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Fair enough; I just don't personally like the idea of 'rewarding' flaws with XP, particularly as, if not carefully balanced, ends up with characters who don't particularly suffer for their flaws, but continually benefit from the rewards (the XP they've gained because of the flaws is always there... the penalty of their flaws isn't). It's why I put forward the idea of flaws granting circumstantial rewards rather than permanent ones.

Fideru said:

Not sure about being unable to speak, but wouldn't the best way to compensate for a missing eye or arm be to give the character a cybernetic replacement ?

Biggest problem I had with Ad/Disadvantagess in running games like SLA or Vampire was the, well, lets just call it 'subjective' effects of a disadvantage in game where as a GM you where constantly having to enforce it on the player to recognise that yes, you are a rank 9 sociopathic, crackhead homicidal maniac with a tenuous grasp on reality. Whereas, they're quite happy to conveniently remember the characters strengths of invariably killing, torturing and probably wearing someone's head as a hat out in public.

Basically, in small amounts its ok from a roleplaying perspective, but people don't tend to take them in small amounts and it ends up a massive distraction to the game overall with attention seeking.

Bilateralrope said:

In essence that is true. But based on a few items Ive seen in Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy, there is an easy way around this.

Its a new talent, a simple one that you would assume could easily already be in the game. As in one form it is. The Tech Pries talent/trait for using Mechandrites. A simple use of the non-skilled/non-weapon talent penalty (test at half characteristic or -20 to the test) applied toa talent "Cybernetic Adjustment" or such. Make it cost 100 or 200XP and not the PC can get a cybernetic part but much like a new weapon or gadget, ifthey are not skilled in its use, it is not as effective as it could be.

Plus in the permanent injuty rules you can reduce your penalties by spending XPs.

In Rogue Trader when beginning characters start with bionics/cybernetics in excess of a few knuckles and teeth (arms, legs and what not) they spend XPs to have them. This could be logically explained as taking the Cybernetic Adjustment (pending better name) talent.

So a starting character could opt for the "missing arm" drawback/flaw and offset it with his XP expenditure on cybernetic arms. Or he could opt to not have a cyberbetic arm and use the XPs in other ways.

A lot of these flaws are already spread amongst the existing books but are not collated into a single system or section for use.