OK, i'm a little confused about the way pistols work in close combat.

Things i need to know

1. When using pistols in close combat do you use weapon skill (as its close combat) or ballistic skill (as its guns)?

2. When using pistols in close combat can you use semi auto or full auto?

3. Can pistols in close combat be parried (i'm guessing yes, because although you couldn't parry the bullets, you could certainly knock the guns aside, watch Equilibrium for some great examples of this)

4. If you can use semi-auto/full-auto and have two weapon wielder - pistols, does this mean that, if armed with autopistols, in close combat, you could let rip with two full auto burst at +20 (for full auto) and still get your dodge?

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

1) WS if you club them with the pistol, BS if you are making a ranged (shooting) attack.

2) Yup, any modes the pistol is capable of firing are fair game.

3) While Equilibrium is a cool movie, as per the Rules as Written you cannot parry non-primitive ranged attacks (and even then you need a talent). Perhaps a custom Talent could allow it?

4) Another perfectly valid tactic although unless you also have the gunslinger and ambidextrous talents you will be at -20 (dual wielding penalty) + 20 (full auto) for a netural bonus.

Rules explicitly state you gain no bonuses for firing your weapon in combat, do they not?

I would allow a parry as you could:

a) try to push the gun away

b) try to push the arm holding the gun

c) place a shield or similar between you and the gun (which would only give an armour-bonus, not negate the attack)

But, you need to be aware of the gun and be in melee with the gun-wielder Seriously, just try with a friend with a toy and try "hitting" him while he is aware and ready to defend. Let him hold a plastic bottle or something else that does little or no harm should an accident happen. You don't need a talent for it, just survival-instincts

I found it quite inclear in the book as it never actualy defines what melee is. I've ruled that any attack made in melee to the target you are in melee with is a melee attack (and therefore WS based and parryable, uses the 'melee' Attack option etc.). The classic hero, villian and one pistol fight scenes lend some cinimatic support to this interpretation.

Errant said:

They explicitly do not gain bonuses or penalties for range or targeting equipment. Auto-fire, poor lighting and other effects are still applicable.

Quicksilver said:

I see it a bit differently. While the above is certainly valid, I would always use BS for a ranged attack, even in close combat. The ranged attacker has already lost their +30 bonus for range and any targeting kit they might have used (aiming is still fair game, but more as a matter of timing) because of the melee.

Equillibrium style fighting would probably be better handled by a fancy grapple and perhaps use of the Disarm talent but a word for word reading of the parry action prohibits its use in close combat against a ranged attacker. Of course player characters and the rule of cool could probably allow an exemption (or a custom talent), especially if a player is going to be turned into leaky Swiss cheese otherwise.

Khouri said:

Given that those are the rules in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, you are correct. Whenever you use a ballistic weapon, whether at range or, in the case of a pistol, in melee, you use your Ballistic Skill. You never use WS when using a gun.

I suppose it depends on whether you see a close combat attack with a pistol as a ranged attack or a sub category of melee attack. I'd certainly never allow a parry of a ranged attack by say a bolt pistol, but if you treat shooting in melee as a melee attack it seems reasonably to knock the gun aside.

Ok, lets see what we think of this

1. When using a gun, its always ballistic skill, whether at range or in melee

2. semi and full auto are options that can be used in melee or ranged as long as you use a gun.

3. close combat attacks can be parried regardless of whether they are from a melee weapon or ranged weapon. (altough i accept this is a house rule)

4. as the books says, no bonuses for range or targeting gear, but bonuses for full/semi auto are fine. However, i think i will house rule this so that it is no bonuses for range OR for semi/full auto. The only bonuses would be those applicable to melee combat with a close combat wepaon, such as ganging up, surprise and so on. semi/full auto could still land multiple hits but without the +10/+20 bonus to hit.

I realise 3. is debateable and 4. is also a judgement call that strictly speaking might go against the rules. However, i feel that pistols SHOULD be inferior to close combat weapons in melee. Not rubbish, but inferior. So for instance a character with a chainsword, should have an advantage over a chap with a bolt pistol in close combat. Likewise, a power sword should be better than a plasma pistol.

What do we all think?

You could just say that shooting in melee always has a penalty of -20% to hit.

With the parry, you could use an opposed BS vs WS to check if the parry is really successful. If the BS wins, the shot is fired and hits the target. If WS wins, the gunshot misses the target.

Just some ideas, I'll think about this some more.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

Also bear in mind that a melee character doesn't have to reload their weapons, don't have to worry about jamming or overheating, and gets their Strength bonus added to their attacks. Add talents like Swift/Lightning Attack and they can dish out more attacks than their opponent can possibly dodge.

A pistol in close combat is still a ranged attack. This seems to be pretty clear in the rules to me.

"Ranged attacks cannot be made if the attacker is engaged in melee unless he is firing a pistol class weapon." p. 244

This discussion comes up every few weeks

And all points made make sense, but after RAW pistols fired in melee us BS, cannot be parried, you get no bonus for range, and the character using them cannot parry but still dodge.

I as player wouldnt cry if a Gm houseruled that pistols can be parried in melee or if they use WS in melee. But both changes would nerf pistols to much.

The rules make sense in the WH universe. New characters and all the mooks use pistols in the beginning ( mostly SP ones ) cause they are cheap and easy to use (+20 for full auto). But later on your character advancemet makes melee more and more usefull ( lightning strike, hard target, wall of steel, enemys with high toughness and armor), and non heavy ranged weapons less usefull. Its because the non heavy advanced firearms often have no full auto mode. And because you get access to power fists and power swords, which are some of the most effective weapons.