We have two sets and are way more interested to see how the game plays freeform on the tabletop than on the tiles. Has it been said when the tabletop PDF will be released? Hopefully very soon, since it should be done (since AEG had said they had the PDF developed before it went to FFG, I believe)

Yes, I would like to see the tabletop rules also. I am very interested in the game, but not as board game with mini's. I want to see the tabletop rules before I make up my mind on buting it.

ThomO said:

ThomO, you may want to pop your thoughts on the link below. While I like the idea of a simple boardgame and quickplay. I would also like a more advanced set of table top rules for a bit more in depth play.

www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/555953/what-do-potential-tabletop-players-want-to-see-in

i also wound like to see table top rules

As long as TT rules are compatible with the Dust Tactics Boardgame as it is now.

Most of the existing rules would be a good start for divergence into TT.

ThomO said:

It's not a boardgame with mini's though, its a wargame that uses a grid for movement. Apart from that there is no difference. I come from a 30 year wargame background and as I we have built a gaming table especially for Dust it feels no fifferent to the hundreds of other wargames I have played, just esier with less rules/measuring hassles.

Major Mishap said:

exactly my impression....

You can have regular TT table with lightly painted grind - only limitation is that terrain need to be included in square borders, rest is like TT just less troublesome with los, distances, unit cohesion etc.

Major Mishap said:

I disagree. It has a strong board game feel when I played it. It had some TT feel as well, but it was strong vibe toward Board Game. (its even in the board game category on these FFG websites).

Elements that make it a board game. Limited Movement (move into one of nine adjacent squares!). Range determined by squares (easily fixed, each square is about 3"x3"). Line of sight based on dots on the board. No height in the game. Despite it using 3D miniatures, each squad/character/walker could easily be tracked by a chit or card.

Saying Dust Tactics inst a boardgame is like saying Blood Bowl isnt a boardgame, or warhammer quest isnt a board game.

Its a hybrid, and the BG aspects do shine through when you play.

I wager my 25 years of gaming on it. I didnt build my own Dust gaming table for it, but I didnt need to, the game came with a board.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Thers no move limitations at all, if in your standard wargame a unit can move 3", its not going anywhere different to where you can place models on a grid, it's still going to be 3" away in any direction you want.

Height is not an issue as hills or elevated terrain have not been introduced into the game yet, and if they don't in the TT rules, there is no difference. Height may be intoduced at a later date.

You can also play any wargame with a chit of paper, heck, you can even downlaod paper figures just to do that. Why bother buying WH models, you could just as easily use their movement trays with 'Orcs' written on it.

All a grid system does is to remove the need for a tape measure - nothing else changes. If I played on my gaming table and used a tape measure, would it make a difference? Don't think so.

wound it hurt to have both sets of rules ? weather you feel the game plays like aboard game or not adding a full minis table top game wound increase the profile of the minis to table top players who mostly dont play board games

riftsinger said:

I certainly agree. They should release the TT rules as soon as possible. You don't need to change much really. Just give use some scenario.

A tabletop game is also about the beauty and the hobby of making scenery.

It is not possible to compare a well made 3d table with these horrible tiles they gave us (they wrap and they never stay in place). A poster would have been much better.

For example: From http://www.fantasy-gelaende-modelle.de

Major Mishap said:

Major Mishap said:

Yeah it would. Some things would be out of range, other wouldnt. Squads would not fall under a "all members can" category. In most wargames I have experience with, whether or not a unit could target another unit was based on line of sight and if only a portion of the unit could see the target then only those members could fire. Same with close combat, only those models in contact would actually be able to fight (or contribute significantly) in a fight.

Individual squads (based on coherency rules pf the wargame in question) could be a line 10" across, or a small circle 2" across as they all stack side by side or spread out. Special weapons, such as flamers and explosives would have a template effect and only those under it would be hit or risk being hit.

Movement wouldnt suffer penalties based on direction using a table top specific system. In Dust the first diagonal you move costs Movement 1 (->1 ) while the second costs 2 and so forth. You dont go "the first 3" moved in a north east fashion costs 3" but all movement after costs double", well I suppose you could but most wouldnt.

I am not saying that Dust Tactics wouldnt classify as a Table Top Classic Wargame, it very well can. But what I am saying is that there are board game elements and restrictions that influence game play and style. Maybe you can ignore them, but perhaps the bloke who earlier stated he wasnt interested in the board game aspects wont be able to ignore them. I can see those influences and i dont let it get in the way of me enjoying it.

If Dust doesnt move on to Table Top style rules (completely) I foresee the game not lasting longer then a few more years.

All those examples may or may not be in a TT version and some don't in TT wargames. For example, I don't play 40K but don't think all models have to be in B2B to count in melee and in the new Mantic sci-fi rules, you only measure from the leader and can position all your bods within a certain distance - prtty much the same mechanism as Dust. I guess it all depends on what they do with a DT TT set, if its just a gridless revamp then there is no point (which is what I keep thinking of), but if they go to a more detailed individual model system then it will be worth doing, but that would be a completely different rules set - could be good.

Major Mishap said:

I do agree, a gridless rewrite of the rules is kind of unneccessary (just multiply all the current ranges by 3" and there you go, more or less gridless LOL). But I think I would prefer if they stuck with the same core value set and game basics for compatibility purposes. They card I get for buying Axis Apes should equally apply in both versions, and so forth.

Dust Tactics is a board game- it says so right on the front of the box . I still would prefer to have table top rules, saying that Ive still enjoyed the dozen or so games Ive played. On the other hand Ive also enjoyed using the miniatures and background in other rulesets.

DoomOnYou72 said:

im curious if i may which rules /

riftsinger said:

I assume DUST Tactics would work well with Incursion and Secrets of the Third Reich and some other Wierd WWII games, some people us ethe mechs for WH40k too.

Forgot to add Tanhausser.

Here are rules I came up with based on the Starter Box rules. I didn't update them for the released expansions.

INTRODUCTION
These are rules for playing Dust Tactics on a 3-D battle field. Game play will follow the standard rules unless otherwise noted in the proceeding.

INITIATIVE
As described on page 7 of the rulebook, WHO PLAYS FIRST.

ACTIVATION
As described on page 7 of the rulebook, WHAT CAN A UNIT DO WHEN IT IS ACTIVATED.

MOVEMENT
One square is equivalent to six inches (Note: Depending on table size this can be changed to four inches instead). In a MOVE a unit may move up to the maximum amount of squares they can move in one game turn. For example, Battle Grenadiers has a move of one square. So, for a given MOVE the Battle Grenadiers can move up to six inches. The measure of the MOVE is from any point on the base of the model.

As described on page 9 of the rulebook, the EFFECTS OF OTHER UNITS are still enforced. When a vehicle cannot move per the EFFECTS OF OTHER UNITS or impassable terrain then they must clear it before being allowed to change direction. To clear impassable terrain or a unit the entire base of the vehicle must be past it. After passing the object in question it may continue movement. An example of this is a Luther turning around a corner of a building. The Luther must move 4” forward for its entire base to clear the edge of the building. Afterward it can move up to 2” to turn the corner of the building.

UNIT COHERENCY
When moving a unit with more than one model in it, the unit must maintain unit coherency. So, once a unit has finished a MOVE, the models in it must be within a distance between one model and the next is no more than:

2” for Soldiers
4” for Vehicles
6” for Aircraft

During the course of a game, it’s possible a unit will get broken up and lose unit coherency, usually because it takes casualties. When this happens the unit must form back to unit coherency on their next MOVE.

CONSOLIDATED MOVE
When moving a model in a unit in base contact with a model in an opposing unit; the opposing unit must move all their models not in base contact up to 2” to get in base contact as much as possible with the unit. The up to 2” movement takes place once the MOVE is finished. Generally, a unit would want to move in base contact with an opposing unit in order to use close combat weapons.

TERRAIN TYPES
There are three general classes of terrain: clear, difficult and impassable.

• Clear terrain can be moved across without any penalty (e.g. Grass, Hills, etc).
• Difficult terrain slows downs models wishing to move through it (e.g. Forest, Rocks, etc).
• Impassable terrain prevents all movement through it (e.g. Buildings, etc).

Terrain types on the battle field are determined by both sides before the battle begins.

IMPASSABLE TERRAIN
A unit may not be placed or move thru impassable terrain unless the unit concerned have an ability granting them an exception. In addition impassable terrain counts as a square without a dot for determining line of sight.

DIFFICULT TERRAIN
If any model in a unit start their MOVE inside difficult terrain or wants to MOVE the unit thru difficult terrain it must roll two D6 and select the highest roll (Note: Roll two D4 if movement distance is 4” instead of 6”). This is the maximum distance in inches the unit may go for one square of movement. Once every model in the unit clears difficult terrain then it may move normally if it has anymore square movement left.

For example, if a unit has two squares of movement for a MOVE and starts in difficult terrain. The unit rolls 2D6, the rolls come up 4 and 3. The unit uses a 4 for 4” of movement. After the 4” move, if every model in the unit is no longer in difficult terrain then it can use its second square movement up to the maximum amount of 6”. However, if any model in the unit is still in difficult terrain after the 4” movement then it must roll 2D6 for the second square movement.

In addition difficult terrain is a cover element which cannot be destroyed. The type of cover it provides is determined before the game begins. Or it can follow the simple rule of any difficult terrain above 1” in height provides HARD COVER. Otherwise SOFT COVER is provided by the difficult terrain.

SHOOTING RANGE
The distance of one square for weapon range is the same as one square defined in the MOVEMENT section. The exception is close combat weapons (e.g. Knife, Claw, etc), for this case instance a model in the unit must be in base contact with a model in the opposing unit.

LINE OF SIGHT
Line of sight is determined by tracing the center model of the unit to the targeted unit’s center model. If there is a dispute in determining the center model then each player rolls 3 dice. The side with the most TARGET gets to decide which model is the center model. If removing a center model for a casualty then the center model must be replaced with an existing model in the unit if possible. As described on page 10 of the rulebook, the WHAT BLOCKS LINE OF SIGHT? is still enforced.

CHECKING RANGE
To measure weapon range, you select any point from the base of the center model to any point of the base of the targeted center model. In the board game version, the players are aware of the distances of the weapon range. As a result, the person deciding to SHOOT is allowed to check weapon ranges before deciding to do so.

OPEN FIRE!
As described on page 9 of the rulebook, the OPEN FIRE! is still enforced with the exceptions for section SHOOTING RANGE, CHECKING RANGE, and LINE OF SIGHT.

COVER ELEMENTS
Cover elements and type of cover are defined in the TERRAIN sections and as described on page 13 of the rulebook, WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF COVER?.

DETERMINING COVER
A unit has cover when any model in the unit is within 2” of a cover element and line of sight passes thru the cover element. If line of sight ends on a cover element (e.g. Center model is in forest, etc) then it will count as pass thru the cover element. For example, the Combat Rangers are within 2” of an ammo crate on the right. Laser Grenadiers are on the right side of the Combat Rangers. When the Laser Grenadiers target the Combat Rangers, line of sight passes thru the ammo crate. Since the Combat Rangers are within 2” as well they receive cover.

Battle Grenadiers are on the left side of the Combat Rangers. When the Battle Grenadiers target the Combat Rangers, line of sight does not pass thru the ammo crate. Even though the Combat Rangers are within 2” of the ammo crate they do not receive cover since line of sight does not pass thru it.

COVER
As described on page 13 of the rulebook, the WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF COVER? is still enforced with the exceptions for COVER ELEMENTS and DETERMINING COVER.

ABILITIES AND SPECIAL UNITS
As described on page 17 of the rulebook, the ABILITIES AND SPECIAL UNITS are still enforced with the exception(s):

AGILE
The unit is composed of swift and agile members. When it moves, the unit may move at the normal movement distance when moving in and thru difficult terrain.

SPECIAL WEAPONS
As described on page 21 of the rulebook, the SPECIAL WEAPONS are still enforced with the exception(s):

FLAMETHROWERS
A flamethrower shot is determined by a line drawn when determining line of sight. Units between this line are affected by the flamethrower. For each range square of the flamethrower it determines the number of units affected by it. There is no choice in which are affected, first come first serve and regardless of friend or foe. For example, a Flamethrower has a range of 1 and targets Laser Grenadiers unit. When tracing a line in the line of sight it goes thru Battle Grenadiers first. Since it has a range of 1, only the first unit is affected by it. As a result, the Battle Grenadiers take the flamethrower hit.

riftsinger said:

Currently we are using Nuts 2.0 from Two Hour Wargames with a playtest set of War Without End ( 2hourblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/working-cover-for-war-without-end-nuts.html ). War Without End is a supplement for Nuts that adds all sorts of Weird War stuff to Nuts. The rules are done and at the editor with a general release soon. Its a great set of rules that Id recommend. There is a free set called Chain Reaction 3.0 that you can get from their website to give you an idea of how the system works.

thanks i had heard of of nuts but not the supplement i will cheak it out

Hate to bust it for you but if this becomes a inches game rather than a tiles game it won't be any time soon as I mean time-wise to be 2-5 years. They even said this in one of the videos describing this game. They would have to completely rewrite the game and change a lot taking away from the whole type of game this is.

I've been playing mini games for some time now whether is 40k, War Machine, and Mercs. The whole problem with ppl doing the tiles to inches is the reason why I kinda dont like playing them, the judgement of inches. People fudge it to get as close as possible and in this game you're either in range or not no questions asked. Just like cover and LOS you either have it or not no "well one of my models is blocked so I get cover. And on top of that your table top rules just ripping from 40k, so why not just play 40k rules with these minis.

I just plays a massive full table tile game 4 by 6 and we almost went even bigger. There wasn't any problems if was simple clear and no confusion.

arkangl said:

I think what people are saying is AEG developed tabe top rules at the same time as the grid rules. And it is true, sometimes in table top battles you have to deal with range fudging and cover fudging. But to be honest, that isnot nearly as big a issue as you make it sound.

I have had a lot of fudging in tournaments. Especially in Ard Boyz the regional tournaments and I've been to even a Grand Tournament where they caught multiple people. Friendly games who cares its friendly but come to my store for a tournament and if u move a 1/4" off I'll be super strict to u in a heartbeat. People try to win just by getting that little bit in.

Also, AEG could have made it all they want and it prob went down with the company to never be seen again due to copyrights. AEG was never incharge of the rules. People don't understand AEG and Dust relations were completely different than FFG and Dust relations. AEG didn't have any control they only published it. FFG has some control and publishes it. Thats why Dust-Models.com models are not legal. Businesswise it would be smart to just stick to one game mechanics and not make rule books for 2.

Also, what everyone doesnt think about is if they do this it'll be AT-43 all over again with them constantly changing rules and the way the game works and don't say it won't bc then u are just being in denial. And they can mess this up just like AT-43 b/c they were incharge of that game too.

I also still say if you are gonna change it the way you want, why not just play 40k instead. Because it looks like some people are just looking for a substitute b/c they dont like the rules or with the price hikes its becoming too expensive.

If I run a game company, I will never have two rulesets for a single game. First, it drains resources as I have to support 2 different rulesets and must consider the 2 rulesets whenever I come out with any expansions. Second, it confuses newbies as to which one they should play because none of them have played a gridded wargame or a tabletop wargame before and not only must they now choose which wargame to pick up but also which rulesets to adopt. Thirdly, in tournaments that I organized, I don't want a gridded champion *and* a tabletop champion, kind of silly. If people want to play tt rules, why not use Wh40K rules with DT minis as arkangl has suggested? The reason DT is so fun and plays so fast and furious is because of its gridded nature. Anything that detracts DT from this will completely change the spirit of the game and as a company, I wouldn't dare to change the formula that is making my game sell so well. So, I doubt FFG will come out with any tabletop rules in the near future. So instead of waiting for tt rules, why not enjoy the current rules to its fullest and play as many games as you can within 2 hours, everyday? I just love DT!