Clamatius said:

I see how my message was misleading. Fang is correct in his assessment. If you find deck buildings to be interesting and solving that puzzle then that is fine by me. Just remember there are those of us that find that boring. Coming from a roleplayer background I could see a person comparing that to power gaming. From a fan of fighting games like street fighter they would understand you have higher tier players (deck themes) and down right joke (themes). As a board gamer a person would just use the game for interaction with friends. From a Magic player point of view they want to be the first person to discover the "broken deck". Everyone thinks differently, however it is this forcing of opinion that causes the atmosphere to be generally divided.

EDIT: the way your puzzle solving statement is described it almost sounds like you have fun in breaking games. It is a misleading sentence and I know what you mean, but I can see others taking that as the wrong way. Joker wants to just have fun...but Batman has to ruin his plans.

That's good to hear Fang. LOL But my stance still remains on 4chan speach. (irony)

BT kills flavour too.
Imagine you have this really big army of Orcs and a great captial. Now a single bolt thrower appears and tears your army to dust. Great flavour?

it tastes good to me

BT was dominant as soon as AoU came out.

Pretty much. A *lot* of people on these forums were laughably wrong about the deck, but whatever, they were too dense to see it then and they remain so now. Not like any of them have ever posted any deck or strategy ideas worth caring about anyway.

So yeah, now that the deck has mining tunnels & outpost, there are only two kinds of people here: people who think thrower needs to be banned and people who prefer to wait and see what they print to counter it (both reasonable stances). I can't imagine anyone with even half a clue thinks thrower isn't a completely broken deck, so at least we all agree on that.

Also, @ my loyal fans: haters gonna hate

Now, now...don't get all bitter, DDM, it just makes you look like a cranky 12-year old who can't stand not being right.

Most of us were NOT wrong at the time we laughed off the BT deck but like F7Eleven said, once AoU showed up, it got much scarier, though certainly not unbeatable (though it's basically devastating now, certainly). Heck, for that matter, Order is pretty nasty right now all around thanks to Mining Tunnels, Ancestral Tombs, and Order in Chaos.

Probably the best solution for BT angst is just to errata the BT card itself to really limit it.

LOL guy... find me a post with anyone even claiming to try playing a bolt thrower deck before Assault on Ulthuan came out? Do you even know what you are talking about? At all?

You suggested someone play Scrap Heap. Scrap Heap. Yes, I'll pause for a moment while everyone looks that card up. You suggest stuff like that and then post 5 seconds later with an authoritative, "I know the format" tone, as if anyone with a clue would take you seriously.

You make my brain hurt.

Anyway, got in our first round of Outpost Thrower testing today.

SAVAGE BEATING.

My god. The card is nuts. Turn 6 Grimgor = not fast enough. Our undead deck still has some game but it needs to be retooled to stop being cute with Clan Moulder's Elite and focus on ramping out Mr. Grimgor. I am guessing after ~2 games that the win percentage is maybe 30% for undead as constructed. Might be able to bump it up to ~40% by playing a blazing fast orc aggro deck with Mob Ups and Grimgors at the top of the curve, but yeah... this format is basically over until they do something to thrower/outpost. Busted.

Your posts never really surprise me anymore. The fact that you think Scrap Heap (in the thread in question) is useless just reveals how insanely myopic (and sadly, arrogant) your attitudes are in these forums and towards deck-building in general. And yes, people were fiddling with the idea of building bolt-thrower decks a good bit before you (our self-proclaiming deck-building genius) showed up in these forums. Of course I realize that you'll be completely unable to fathom anyone else having a valid idea or opinion that differs from your own myopic genius but we all know that about you by now so I guess it's really no surprise anymore. Sigh.

I'm not sure what's worse, actually, the fact that some newcomers here might take your ideas as law or that you're so frequently unable to see that other players here are as good, if not better, than you seem to think you are at playing or deck-building AND that their ideas can be functional as well as your own.

Until you can realize that, most people here will read your posts with a large amount of private reservations (as well they probably should). Now I'm going to skedaddle before Curator comes in here and rips you a new one.

I think lots of players here are good, I just don't think you are good

No one was building thrower decks before we had access to Flames of the Phoenix, guy. Anyway, you didnt personally come around to the thrower deck until after the Burning of Derricksburg. So if you want to restate your position as "everyone who claimed thrower was oppressing the format from AOU onwards was right" then I can absolutely accept that, since you know, that was when we started making that claim. If anything, I was a bit slow to come around on it, so if you recognized it was oppressive right after AOU released (like F7eleven did, kudos to him), then wow, hats off to your being ahead of me on the format. /eyeroll.

Anyway, whatever, can we go back to talking about Outpost and Silent Forge in general please... interested to hear if others have testing Outpost Thrower with similar results to ours.

Sadly, I don't think you're genuinely interested in "hearing if others have tested Outpost Thrower with similar results" to yours. I think you are probably interested in hearing others that will agree with your contentions or results. That much is probably true.

Furthermore, whether or not you think I'm "good" at the game or not, is of little consequence to me. I don't play the game for your approval. I don't play the game to be the best ever. I play it because it's fun. Plain and simple.

What's not fun is listening to someone denigrate others who have different and extremely valid strategies and opinions than theirs simply because those opinions don't agree with your own. I'm curious what one of us has to do if a 9th place finish and a 6th place finish at the GC World's event (since I built Gio's deck myself entirely) aren't good enough for our masterful genius DDM to consider "good"? Just out of curiosity, what place did you finish at GenCon Worlds? Oh that's right, you weren't even there to back up all your smack talk here.

I'll see your /eye-roll and match it with my own. /eye-roll

PS. Are you sure you're not F7Eleven's long-lost twin or something? Or just an Alt-account for him. You guys frequently sound remarkably familiar...

Whatever. I apologize to everyone for letting Wytefang troll me. Lets get back on topic.

Outpost + Thrower, anyone have ideas? At this point I'm thinking it comes down to tuning for the mirror since that's all anyone outside a casual meta would play right now. My initial thought on that is to actually 'go big' in the quest zone, trying to draw more outposts than they do. Sadly I think the matchup is basically your deck vs. variance, but given how fast you can win w/ 2 Outposts in play, I think digging for cards (and mulliganing VERY aggressively) is probably the right call.

Long Winter seems good just to 'counter' their battlefield development - a succession of 2 or 3 of them at the worst time could actually steal a turn. In the same vein, I think Will of the Electors might actually be a reasonable way to interact... and ofc when you're getting value there, 1-2 Verena looks good. Seems easy to play around that plan (probably using your own Wills on 'extra' developments the turn you go off) but having a plan is better than not...

ddm,

I am curious to read what type of deck you do use.

Myself, I game only with my nephews right now and all three of us game for fun. However, I would certainly like to see what you are using.

Lastly, do you have a "fun deck" with HE and Empire that you can list? Or, what about DE and Skaven.

Many thanks!

So has anyone actually built a BT deck using the new cards? I tried and to my suprise, my new version isn't that much faster. Maybe Outpost isn't as big of a deal as people are thinking. Sure at first glance you think it's big, but try making a deck and see...

I'm picking up the BP after work today and will be playing a bunch tonight. I'm definitely planning to play with the Outpost.

I like DDM's idea of tweaking the deck for the mirror, but I was thinking of trying to increase the speed and move the kill up a turn or two. And if removing defensive cards speeds the deck up, then it's also good for the mirror (since your WoG's are useless in the mirror).

I basically want to find exactly how little "control" i can get away with.

@Toberk: yeah, we have. Its CRAZY how much speed the outpost gives the deck, but the problem is all the speed is contingent on having an outpost (or two, or god forbid three) in play. That's where my idea of investing heavily in quest is coming from. The 'old' thrower deck requires 25+ resources to do its thing, and outpost can go off with 8, provided you can find your outposts. I'm dreading how draw dependent the mirror match is going to be for that reason alone - the winner will almost certainly be the first to draw an outpost, regardless of what else is done. Hence my Long Winter/Will of the Electors plan... seems like the only decent way to interact.

We don't have a list we're happy with yet, that will require some *GAG* mirror match testing since that's basically the only deck we are aiming to beat. Grimgor is hard to play around short of raw speed, and outpost gifts you that as long as you can smooth out the draws enough to find it reliably. Mulligan into outpost may not be a bad plan against Grimgor decks and the mirror, incidentally.

@Lordpappanqui - I don't think we really have any decks properly tuned to take Silent Forge into account yet. Blind guess... I would say Outpost Thrower makes dwarves a really bad choice, which will let Skaven get some breathing room to attack thrower and undead from the speed angle. Here's a quick meta breakdown as I speculatively see it today (based on very little playtesting):

Tier 1 - Thrower

Tier 1.5 - Orc/Undead Reanimator, Mono-Orc Sligh ramping to Grimgor

Tier 2 - Dwarves, Rock Skaven, maybe an Empire support denial deck

As Clamatius pointed out in another discussion, the meta is basically being redced to "factions that can cheaply play a lot of answers to supports". Meaning Orc, Dwarf, and Empire decks (Pillage, Demolition, Rodrik's Raiders).

Watch the deck discussion forum for these decks to be fleshed out - right now these are just concepts, theoretical angles of attack at the post-Silent Forge meta. If you want older lists to just showcase the core synergistic cards in each faction, search for either me or Clamatius' posts in the deckbuilding forum - we post every tuned list we have there as we find it.

ddm5182: Any chance Infiltrate Empire Tactic could see deck-time? Limiting opponent to 1 card drawn, recycle Infiltrate with Order in Chaos if you can?

Yes, I think that card is fine. Its not great by any means, but its definitely worth keeping in mind as a potential angle of attack. I plan to try Long Winter/Will of the Electors first as I think that attacks them more directly and effectively, but if the shell can accomodate more hate cards, Infiltrate seems like a fine thing to try.

ddm5182 said:

This was probably the must humorous thing you've ever said here - and you've said some doozies over your (rather annoying) tenure here. So somehow we're all the ones who are trolling - it's not you, oh goodness no. LOL That's awesome. You've got quite a routine going here. Insult other players, brag yourself up (despite having ZERO tournament experience with W:I to back up any of your claims), then get offended when someone calls you out and meekly proclaim, "Hey guys..let's get back on topic because I really honestly just want to have some cool discussions about the game. Really I do. Oh but whatever you do, don't try to disagree with me or share a different perspective because let's face it, I'm a genius at CCG or LCGs and I really won't admit it if I am wrong. Thanks!"

ROFL!! Awesome. You've become a parody around here at this point, man. Hard to take much of what you say very seriously these days.

Wytefang, please stop. Lets get back to productive discussion, please.

Case in point. Thanks for the validation.

Yeah, let's get back to the "discussion". I'm curious to see what happens the first time someone disagrees with your brilliance here. This'll be fun.

::: grabs some popcorn and sits back to watch ::::

In case you hadn't noticed, we were having a rather nice discussion until you came back here and crapped all over the thread again. I already reported you to the mods, now PLEASE stop and either join the discussion productively or be quiet.

Once again, sorry to everyone for feeding the troll.

The Infiltrate / Order in Chaos loop was one of the ideas from dupotd's GenCon deck, along with the Will/Judgement plan. I'd have to try it more to be sure, possibly after taking some kind of tranquilizers to numb the mental anguish, but I have a suspicion that the Empire version of Thrower may be favoured over the Dwarf and HE versions - but I'd expect that Dwarf is better against the general field.

ddm5182 said:

Wow. Seriously. What's it like in your world, man? Because if anyone, I repeat, anyone, goes back and reads this thread (or basically ANY thread where someone disagrees with you) they'll see it pretty differently. Please, honestly, just get a clue from all of this. Learn from it. Improve your online demeanor and attitude, so we can all enjoy the forums and these "discussions" that you claim so badly to want to take part in. I would hope that any moderator who reads your BS complaint takes a bit more time to read everything you post - I would imagine they'd notice the same issues that I (and anyone else) does about how you speak to people in these forums, in general. You may recall that our very own Dormouse, now a FFG employee, felt the same way about your remarks and attitude.

PS. Remember that the word "discussion" implies a back-and-forth, almost collaborative approach - something you seem very much opposed to the moment someone posits a theory or idea different from yours.

Calm down dude. Please just contribute to the discussion. You keep bringing up "disagreeing with me" - do you disagree with anything we've said so far RE: Silent Forge and the impact it might have on deck design? What do you think the impact will be on dwarves for example since that's what you played at gc?

I wish this new set had another creature enchantment that gives +0/+3.. Then I could play SIX!! What awesome tech that would be!