Mal Reynolds said:

Wow.

There's nothing wrong with saying that a certain style of gaming works for you and your friends, but it's appalling to encourage a companyeven in jestto edge out a whole diverse group of people based on a biological set of traits that a) don't necessarily define their behaviors, interests, or lifestyles; and b) they can't control or choose.

Go back and re-read your quote, only focus on a different biological trait that's an equally poor predictor of behavior or interests, like skin color. Replace "women" with "African American." Would you be willing categorically to cut out members based on that biological trait? (And incidentally, African Americans aren't represented in overwhelming numbers at GenCon, either, so by your logic, does that make it okay to ask FFG to exclude them and to avoid printing any career cards with darker skin colors?*) Gender and skin color aren't a perfect match, but I think it makes the point about how absurd this stance really isdespite common interests that may unite either group politically or socially, neither bit of biology tells you anything about how well someone can play a troll slayer or a rat catcher.

At the end of the day, I'm just kind of baffled about why you'd automatically cut someone who might be an outstanding fit for your group just because that someone had boobs. Are gender relations really so fraught in your town? If so, you need to get out and meet some cooler women.

*Yes, I know. Sadly, this is already largely the case. But that's a topic for a different thread.

I think what Mal was trying to say was that in his group, roleplaying is kind of a male bonding ritual. I don't think he intended his post to be sexist although I can see why it looks that way.

Personally, I want to see more women attracted to the hobby. For one, they tend to bring different sensibilities to the table but also, it would be cool to get rid of a lot of the negative stereotypes associated with roleplaying and the people involved in it (you know, the classic unkempt, otherworldly "nerd" type).

The more people understand and appreciate this wonderful hobby, the better.

Llanwyre said:

My thoughts went exactly along the same lines. I decided to refrain from an immediate reply to cool down a bit first… I guess Mal intended the emoticons and the closing sentence as flagging this out as being a post that is a bit on the fun side. But it is really hard to swallow for me. Even when writing this post, I had to a lot of sentences only after writing them to avoid to steer this thread, which has so many really great posts, into a bad direction.

Greets from a GM who is quite happy to serve a 60% female / 40% male group.

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

Actually, I think Mal meant what he said. He doesn't want women in his group. It's for guys only in his opinion. Is it sexist? Possibly. I think it's okay if his group is treating the game as the "Guys Night Out" type of event, however what he said can be read that it's not good for WFRP to cater to female gamers as much as they do. That I don't agree with, at all. Using male only pics of characters and doing other things in male only context really discourages women, in my opinion, from getting into the game.

I'm not really into joining a Little Rascals styled "He-Man Woman Haters Club". For me, I'd prefer a co-ed game. Women add a different perspective to the game that an all guy group doesn't have. Unfortunately our DH group is a group of seven guys, right now. We are all seem to have similar perspectives when playing and it kind of gets predictable. I think adding some female gamers to the mix would be nice, but right now we're a bit light on female gamers in our area willing to play DH.

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

I might agree with that if he hadn't specifically gone out of his way to ask FFG not to make the game "too woman friendly."

Saying your play serves as a male bonding ritual? Totally okay. Personal. Not sexist. Not my business.

Asking a company specifically to exclude a whole group of people when making marketing decisions? Totally not okay. Very sexist. Very much my business as a female consumer of FFG products.

Mal Reynolds said:

That sir, would not be a sound business decision.

Yeah, I have to say I found Mal's words a bit close-minded. To be fair I have no problem with the idea of a guys gaming night, but I just don't like it personally. I mean I met my wife through gaming. I actually want FFG to come out with stand-ups and possibly career cards for every gender and race. I would actually buy that supplement. I would love to try and run a game for all female players. In every experience I have had with female gamers the game has only been made more enjoyable by their presence. Whether that be for completely juvenile reasons having to do with boobs and pretty faces to more practical and exemplary reasons such as the fact that women gamers tend to think of alternative ways to progress the story rather then hacking their way to victory. FFG please do not listen to Mal.

As to Chrull who said having female career cards dissuaded his group from playing, I can only hope your players were mostly kidding. I've never been turned away because of female imagery, unless it was completely idiotic, like depicting a girl with huge assets wielding a two-handed great sword with pencil thin arms while wearing flimsy pieces of tattered chainmail. I guess sure a skinny chic with big boobs = hot, although in an icky schoolboy fantasy way. I guess what I'm saying is that the woman depicted in all the career cards I've seen are dressed and proportioned appropriate to the setting. In my opinion the female career cards only enhance the game, in fact as I said above I encourage the company to make more.

I might have stepped on somebodies toes here, me being insensitive and all that.

I just don`t see the big deal about game companies trying hard to attract women into this branch when its clearly a male orientated hobby. Biology is more than just one gender having "boobs" as someone so eleqouantly put it. Biology is also brains, and they work different depending on what your gender is. Now lets not get into the whole biology issue here.

As I said I have nothing against women, I only did tell how it works for my gaming group, and if you`re offended by it okay, that is your right. Now for my last remark, the one about FFG don`t make the game too woman-friendly, was not meant to be directed towards FFG personally, but what I hope they won`t do. But I see clearly how that remark could lead to such reactions. I should have phrased it differently. For that Im sorry.

Am I a sexist of that reason? maybe I don`t know. What I do know is that I don`t want them in my gaming group. And before when I did attendCons I played occasionally with female players. had no problem with them. I think it comes down to preferences, I prefer to play with my buddies, someone mentioned male bonding, and I think that is spot on. If we lucky we might play twice a month. And sometimes is good to get away from anything including women.

So no, if women wants to play warhammer that fine with me, but as soon as FFG changes the game to make it more pleasing for females, I`m out.

Mal

Ps: I am from Norway, we rank as number 2 when it comes to equal rights between genders.

Mal Reynolds said:

How the heck do you gauge that? Ranked #2 by whom? Based on what criteria? Not saying it's not true, I'm honestly curious!

Mal Reynolds said:

Sorry Mal, but that just sounds silly.

I play with females from day 1.

First there was 1 female, then 2, at the peak there were 3 in the group I played with.

Right now there are usually 2 (you know pairs), and It wouldn't be the same without them.

It would just feel incomplete.

I was always happy, proud even, that me and my friends were able to play with females.

They bring colour, and a breath of freshness to the game.

I played with females, I play with females, and I tend to keep it that way.

So if FFG would like to make this game more appealing to females, I say do it.

And if there are some people that can not bare it... well... too bad for them.

But when my female player asks me "why there are male pictures on majority of the careers", or if she is supposed to choose only from the ones with female pictures on it, I definitely don't want to tell her "it is a game for males, be happy we took you in".

LordPasty said:

Here's a report by the World Economic Forum:

javascript:void(0);/*1282120084293*/

thanks Monkeylite for your intel. It was exactly that report I`ve studied.

Reason I mentioned it was to say that there is nothing wrong with my town.

I quess somethings you just keep to yourself, instead of just blurting it out. Ah how I learn.

Back on track, I don`t think FFG needs to do anything to attract more female players to warhammer, it seems to be abundant of women playing it allready!

The only thing I'd like to see done is have racial character packs released at some point. I'd like to see standups for each class in each race/gender combination.

In my gorup we tend to use WHFB models, but from time to time we need to substitute, and it would be nice to have some more options.

Darrett said:

Glad to see somebody else wants that too!

Amani said:

Count me in too!

I'm an avid mini's game player and have several hundred minis at home in various states of paint. With that, I have to say I'm really happy with the standup models provided with the game. I kind of think they focused too much on the PC classes and not enough on the monsters in the core box, but I really like them for game play usage.

Speaking as a professional marketer who is also a woman, a GM, and a passionate WFRP fan, I have some points to add. The weak points in WFRP's marketing have nothing to do with gender. What's the deal with this game? It's *different*: the dice are different, the cards are different, the books are different. The entire system is designed to build and support story, which is the last thing anyone would expect from Warhammer's image (minis, battle, etc). So what needs to happen in the marketing of this game? It needs to convey what about it is different and unique. Slapping a few women on the front of the box doesn't do that any better or worse than the art that's on there currently. The best solve is a demo. I was fortunate enough to catch Jay's demo at GenCon and I picked up the game shortly after. For those who aren't so lucky, Fantasy Flight needs to be a little more creative with their solutions. Online videos are a good start.

No one likes to be patronized, regardless of their demographic. As Llanwyre pointed out, making the game more "feminine" is likely to turn off existing female gamers by assuming that we want to take on a particular role. "Come on, everybody, let's write up rank one housewives!" Erm, I think not. "But wouldn't they like the game better if there were pink action cards?" (May Sigmar forbid it!) Such changes are immaterial at best, and condescending at worst.

Really, two different debates are being presented in this thread. We're talking about the difficulties of getting female gamers to play a specific game (WFRP), versus the difficulties of getting individuals who have never gamed before to play WFRP, or any game at all. Many of these posts seem to confuse the two issues. I happen to believe that WFRP is an excellent game for new players. The dice are intuitive, there's no complex math or frustrating charting, and again, everything about the system is designed to support story. And everyone can appreciate a good story! But female players do not necessarily equate with "new gamers".

As far as women who already game coming to like WFRP or not, we would have to examine the reasons anyone plays one system over another. Aside from genre preferences (fantasy, horror, sci-fi, etc), I think the most likely predictor of what you will play is what you were introduced to first and what your group usually plays. Some gaming groups are lucky enough to have an "innovator": someone who goes to cons, searches online, scopes the stores, finds new games, and presents them to the group. But many start out playing in one system and rarely, if ever, depart. To each his own, but in my opinion this is a pretty sad loss. So the best way to get anyone to play WFRP? Demo it. If you're a fan of the game, do the community a favor and teach someone else how to play.

As far as the *marketing* question, rather than the personal/gaming group question, Fantasy Flight just needs to get creative. To reach a broader audience, find more ways to share what makes the game different from others. This might include videos demoing the game (please do!), sample adventures (huzzah! there it is!), a podcast (mentioned elsewhere), and the like. They might want to create separate campaigns for brand new players versus gamers who are simply new to WFRP. I've noticed some of this approach in the GM's book, when the intro to RPGs document is mentioned for the benefit of newbies. I think this could be pushed even further. But then, I'm just another crazed fan. For Sigmar!! ^_-

Pandora, I think you just made the final opinion about this matter.

Well, probably not the final, but a definite turn in the discussion. :}

Anyway, I ended up thinking that maybe some group of affictionate-for-WFRP-and-also-FFG-employees could make a video podcast of some sessions. They could roll a new short campaing or adventure. Later it could be released as a pdf bonus, sold as that, or even printed. I don't know how much it would sell as probably a lot of people would see it, but if it was a fun scenario, I sure think a lot of people would download it!

Regarding your opinion of 3e being a good RPG for starters, I never thought that. I always seen 3e from the point of view of someone who is playing for quite a while, so it seemed too complex, too different, to be good for starters. It has so many components that I imagine a beginner's group would end playing a board game with some story.

I'm glad I read your opinion, is good to see other way of viewing this matter. I guess I would see as that more easily if the books were more precise about how each mechanic interacts with the story. It is an already old complain that the Core Boxe's books doesn't bring good examples on how to interpret dice results, talents and action cards mechanics and so on.

We will probably see that addressed in the HC books. And maybe in Liber Fanatica VII. :]

Amani said:

count me in as well...

My players: 1 guy and 2 girls. All 3 had boardgame experience, but no roleplay experience. I am the gm. I have played numerous roleplaying games before including 1st edition WFRP as a player, but not for many years. My players love this game, and I feel that they are doing a great job roleplaying and having fun.

The other day I looked at Rouge Trader in the store, because I thought the setting sounded cool. And I decided that it just wouldn't fly with my group. All of the boring tables and +10/-20's would turn them off. They like their cards and bits. I think there is a great game there, but it is not for my group of WFRPs. Now if FFG came out with a bit version...

So I feel that for my group WFRP does a nice job keeping women playing this game, and I agree with a lot of what Pandora said.

Doesn't look like changing all the pronouns to "she" in RPGs helped at all. Politics and grammar don't appear to mix well toward any favorable outcome. Could we get them changed back to their proper grammar "he" format now plzkthx?

I second that ! Please no more "she rolls the dice for her Troll-slayer".

Mal, does the use of feminine pronouns negatively effect your opinion of an RPG? I mean is that actually an issue? I know you never intend to play with females and you do not like female pictures on the career cards, but really it's just a pronoun. I get that your group is for men only, because it is your getaway from females, but do you really need an escape from women so badly that just reading a feminine pronoun causes you irritation? The idea of excluding females from a game seems alien to me, but then I've never felt the need to be around males so I can be myself. I'm myself around females and males. I don't mean any of this to sound as if I'm attacking your position on the issue, I'm just honestly baffled. You say that your group is to have time away from your significant others, yet your no female rule is for all females not just wives and girlfriends. You make a point of stating that your county has the second to the highest gender equality score, but you also intimate that gaming is a boys hobby. Maybe I'm just missing something but regardless I'm glad for women gamers and despite everything I wish you happy gaming.

Amani said:

Son't worry, Amani, I'm also finding some of the attitudes presented here almost beyond belief. That said, the gamer/geek/comic-book-guy stereotype has to come from somewhere, and I think we have some clear examples here.

Cheers

Sparrow

I have to agree with the posters above. I don't want to attack any of the other posters, but some of the attitudes presented just baffle me. I'll say without a doubt that the most enjoyable rpg groups I've been a part of have always been mixed gender groups.

Mal Reynolds said:

Ha ha ha WHAT?!

No chicks in mah rpgs.