Wait, isnt this a hell of a double standard?

"If you can't figure it out on your own based on my deck list provided, it's not really my job to prove anything or think for you. "

You just got through telling me that I don't place enough emphasis on actual gameplay and testing (which incidentally I am sure you will agree is difficult to document in a format like a message board), then you say we should just 'figure it out' based on the decklist? Which is it?

FWIW, I totally get the complaint that a lot of my criticism of your ideas is not specific, in-depth match analysis. I could provide that but it takes a lot of work, which frankly I am only willing to devote to what I consider the best ideas. No ego there, just my choice on how I use my time. I've playtested and theorycrafted this game enough to know at a glance which ideas I think have potential and which ideas don't. Jogo did a very nice job of summarizing my issues with your deck, and unless you can respond to these very obvious, glaring holes in the deck, it isn't really worth taking it to the next stage of testing. Don't be offended by this btw... Clamatius and I trash 3-4 ideas for every actual deck we build and test, and we've built and tested some *really* bad decks to explore ideas.

All this said - remember, I am speaking only to the crowd that cares about playing optimal decks and metagaming. If you don't care about this, and you just want to sleeve up some cards and sling some spells, this deck is fine. Certainly capable of winning in cute fashion against other homebrew type decks.

Anyway, moving on...anyone else have something useful or accurate to discuss about the deck? DDM's desperate attempts to denigrate the deck (calling it "cute" etc, etc..) only reinforce what I already knew about this deck type - it's a tight deck that can hang with the big boys. Now I just need to tweak it better vs. Dwarves to really make it shine.

Here's that deck I'm currently using for disorder:

Dark Elf Mill Deck
Quests (3)
Infiltrate x3

Supports (10 )
Dark Adbyss x3
Bottomless Mine x3
Word of Pain x2
Armoury x2

Tacitcs (27 )
Entropy x3
Chillwind x3*
Seeking New Slaves x3
Dark Visions x2*
Innovation x3
Pillage x3
Burn it Down x3
Invoke Khaine's Wrath x3*
Call the Blood x2*
Your Will Is Mine x2*

Units (20 )
Stunty Smasha x3
Plague Monk x3
Vile Sorceress x3
Shades x2
Walking Sacrifice x3
Mortella x2
Dwarf Slaves x3
Vanguard of Woe x1

* cards are spells

It's not as fast as many other decks out there and at first it can be frustating to early losses but then the pieces fit together and it becomes a juggernaught. Same basic concept as the current order decks. Build up the kingdom zone for tons of resources which disorder really doesn't really need that bad. Put out plague monks and cast spells causing your opponent to discard cards. Play Mortella to cast tactics especially silly order player fogs which often count as spells to cause more discards. Play Dark Abyss to cause more discards and build more resources. Play infiltrate as it causes more discards and forces an opponent to deal with units assigned there. Everything else in the deck is for controlling my opponent's kingdom and quest zones with a little added hand and unit control to boot. I'm going to ditch the "Your Will Is Mine" but I'm still wondering what to replace them with. My current grudge match is vs Periculum's High Elf Resurection deck. (you can message for the details on that bit of high elf silliness) I think it'll be best to pitch one "your will is mine" and add in another mortella and the other one for anouther spell of some sort with a lower cost. This deck does best in the 6-9 resources a turn and has a quick turn around on reset as well.

When March of the Damned releases later this month I'll make a chaos variation of this with greater unit control and more spells. Periculum came up with the idea for this locally but was somewhat disappointed with it. I told him a chaos version would play better in our local meta with all the spite dwarfs and ork rush running about.

I see where ddm has some fears about the future of thrower though. Rereading the new high elf tower card would using the thrower to deal zero damage count as dealing damage? If so there would be no way to counter them once one or the other was on the board the opponent would take infinite damage somewhere in the stack.

Thankfully no, outpost doesn't trigger when you deal 0 damage. That would be a hellish, nightmarish place I have no desire to ever visit.

@Harliquine, Reclaiming the Fallen would like a word with your deck Not sure I want to be milling in a format where that card exists.

@Wytefang, wishing doesn't = getting Substantiate your claims or be ignored.

jogo said:

I was asked to play Judas through a PM, and so I am. Fire with fire right? Or was that "live by the sword die by the sword" oh well...

EDIT: Note to self if you want to stop a troll don't ask them questions.

ddm5182 said:

Still trying to figure me out? I am here for you. I feel a bond between us.

As for your points on the deck...I agree with them however if Fang claims 50 50...then it is up in the air who is right. I think you two should have a mock match. Honesty is a big part in online matches, but cheating will not help either of you test your theories so I don't see anything but a fair match being played.

You make some great counter points to the Mill deck.

ddm5182 said:

ddm5182 said:

1. Good to know.

2. Currently playing against that card. It sucks to be hit with it but by the same token it sucks to have it milled away. That and the high elf variation. As I said a friend of mine plays a deck where he mills himself to put high cost big damage out put high elf units into the discard pile and the dumps those beasties out onto the table using those "resurection" cards for devistating attacks. It's a strategy weak vs "fog" but we haven't tried any order match ups as of yet. I feel if he adds some more control to his deck it will be sharp. But mill decks as a strategy are here to stay for a while and it's only going to get better. They are expensive to build however and currently require more than one set so in single set format you are good. With all the current hotness if you can control the kingdom then you can dictate the flow of the game and get your strategy going first with a plan for what happens in reset. I feel that's currently the state of the game right now. Get your game going before your opponent and prepare for reset to do it again and cash in for a win.

Is it really necessary to post 3 times in a row? There is an edit button.

A online arena with voice chat and visitors would be such a great change. Sadly FFG does not provide a programm.

I'm not sure what I'm doing posting here, but in to the breach I go.

I think this board is not particularly healthy. Admittedly I've only been lurking for about a month but I get absolutely no sense of respect or even politeness amongst a lot of the board members, which makes me wonder about the state of the game from a social perspective. I'm sitting here contemplating whether I want to continue with this game and go to bigger events and running in to the very type of people that made me quit Magic, or just turn this into a beer and pretzels game.

I thought games were supposed to be fun, the best games, fun for you and your opponents. Are you having fun acting like this in your posts? Do you care that you may be driving away people from the game or at least the forums and the major events?

Penfold, my tournament experances have been nothing but positive with this game.

Penfold said:

This is what I was trying to say also, but I was told that I am overreacting. Above posts like this one are why you should be nicer and stop with all the negative threads and posts.

I will quit being a bully. Now that you can FINALLY see how your posts are affecting the game. I was doing it for fun, but when I see post like the above one I know it is time to stop.

I know these next words will be a blessing for some to read. I will be taking a break from this game's forum to let it heal. Many of my players, about 24 in the area, echo what Penfold just said. "If you ignore these forums" they tell me...

Yet these forums are supposed to be where new players come for advice and shouldn't have to be ignored to enjoy the game.

Finally I break my bond with DDM .

When I return to these forums I will go back to the productive player and post useful guidance for new players. Maybe some of you guys can preemptively do the honor and start the New Players Guide thread for me. I will get it stickied.

I second the need for a casual/non-competitive forum and a competitive forum. There are clearly two groups of people here, and neither is particularly good at respecting the other.

ddm5182 said:

Please, by all means, just feel free to go away and ignore it. Your input is useless to me for several reasons: 1. You have zero tourney experience with this game, thus killing off a chunk of your credibility, and 2. Your arrogance means you won't be able to see the forest for the trees, anyway. 3. In keeping with point #2, you seem unable to give any other players here credit for their intelligence and/or understanding of the game - preferring instead to hide behind the whole "well some people are casual and some of us awesome types are not. So in conclusion, buh-bye. Don't trip over your ego on your way out.

The sad thing is that if Penfold had come here previous to your arrival in these forums, he'd have found an awesome site without attitudes or egos - unfortunately, your overall tone has consistently dragged things down here. I apologize to lurkers like Penfold for letting myself be lured in by DDM's arrogance and snide remarks...as he has so ironically said in a different thread, "it's hard to avoid the Trolls."

Sigh. Yet another "report to moderator" button pressed. Maybe they'll do something about your need for personal attacks so we can actually have productive discussion on this forum. I remain hopeful.

For the love of god, can we have one thread where we actually talk about the game, please? I am trying really hard here.

Your complete inability to see how you act in these forums is frightening. You actually report me to the Mods? That is rich. While you're at it, go back and pretty much press the Mod report button on about, oh, 90% of your comments. LOL

[EDITED BY ADMIN]

KEEP THINGS CIVIL, PLEASE. NO MORE PERSONAL ATTACKS AND TRY TO RESPECT THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS.

THANK YOU FOR KEEPING THIS FORUM A WELCOMING PLACE FOR IDEAS AND DISCUSSIONS.

I think this is as good a time as any for me to speak my mind. I've been lurking on these forums since the release of the game. This type of discussion has kept me from posting and kept my friends and I from attending Gencon. First of all, I cannot stand the ridiculous back and forth. Neither of you knows how to ignore the other person or just let it go, and it's dragged what could be a great discussion about a new type of deck into the realms of worthless. Second, my friends and I *love* and adore this game. We play it as often as we can, but we will *never* play in a national event because of the personalities involved at that level. These forums have shown us the type of characters we can expect at such an event. No thanks, we'll happily keep our love of the game intact and local.

@Fang, I love your generous input and enthusiasm for the game. I wish you could keep the discussion to just the game, though. Nobody else cares (and neither should you) about this ridiculous personality conflict between you and ddm. You seem like a nice enough guy who just can't let it go. As a forum lurker and someone who couldn't give two poops about uber-micro-power-meta, I've enjoyed your contributions to the forums. When you keep it game-related, you're a very positive presence. And, by the way, I'm sending some positive healing mojo to your son.

@ddm, you come across like a very intelligent ass in these forums. Many of your posts, no matter how helpful or insightful, usually have a hint of attitude that causes casual players like me to not want to engage you in discussion and remain a lurker. I have no doubt you are a high level deck builder. The game *needs* people like you to help find the chinks in the armor, so to speak, and you have my respect for your crazy-good ability to break a game. But never - not for one moment - should you believe that you represent the state of the game or speak for the masses. I garauntee you that for every "tournament" gamer and uber-deckbuilder out there, there are 10 gamers like my friends and I that lurk on these forums. Players that stumbled upon the thrower deck concept a long time ago, and responded by saying "this is stupid and breaks the game - and more importantly makes it *not fun*" and simply decided to not use that anymore in their local gaming group. Players like you have turned this forum into a neverending thrower deck discussion - and I promise you it's made these forums almost unreadable (combined with the personal bickering, of course).

I wish there was more casual deck discussion on these forums. I can tell you what my friends and I do: We take these amazing decks that you guys post, these new concepts that you find, and we nerf them and have fun with them. We don't need 100% effective decks. Guess what, the game is just as fun (maybe more fun!) with 60-card decks as 50-card-super-streamlined decks. And the vast majority of us are playing this game because it is the most fun card game we've ever seen. I understand that at the top top top of the power ladder, that extra 5% of effectiveness matters. And it's that 5% where players like ddm excell. For the rest of us, we take these ideas and run with them. We learn from you guys.

You have the energy and will to share everything you know about this awesome game with the public, and educate the masses. Be ambassadors for the game. Everyone brings their own special brand of knowledge and experience to these forums. We all have strengths and weaknesses. If you all had more respect and less pride and conceit, these forums may flourish. If you continue like this, though, it will only continue to hurt the health of the community and in the long run, the health of the game.

I agree with the above. Got another solution for all of this: dont give a F(our letter word).

Can we get back to discussing mill decks instead of worrying about attitudes? And could posts containing nothing more than nonconstructive criticism please be deleted so we can get back on topic?

Ah, so the deck finally got postet! (I hate tease threads, pointless attention grabbers that waste everyones time imho)

As for the deck:

You are absolutely right, the great thing about bolt thrower decks is not the thrower, it´s the resource/card draw/control engine behind it.

The Thrower itself is just a wincon that gets the job done and can be replaced by another wincon without any major problems.

But here is my criticism of your deck: why would you replace a solid wincon with an inferior one that takes more slots and is easier to disrupt?

(or course, if the meta is right your wincon might just be better than thrower)

Sounds good! In general, I'd like to excise any personality-related discussion from these forums, and just stick to tuning decks and talking strategy.

@CATS: exactly. Well summarized.

@Tauwolf: I appreciate your pov. shoot me an email @ [email protected] if you want more of my perspective on this whole pissing contest thing, but for now I am pretty much determined to do my best to keep this junk off the forums. Here's hoping I'm not alone in that sentiment

Fair points, Cats. Testing seems to show that it holds its own vs. BT decks, so it seemed like a fun replacement for that particular deck.

Tauwolf, my apologies for adding to the negativity with these forums. I let myself be prodded more than I should have - that's a lose-lose for everyone here. Thanks for the kind words about Noah.