monkeylite said:

The disagreement is over the use of the name.

1. No one appears to be suggesting that a classic D&D/Pratchett 'Thieve's Guild' would be a good thing in WFRP - I await correction on this.
2. Everyone agrees that organised crime exists in WFRP - who wouldn't?
3. Some people appear happy have a criminal organisation called 'The Thieve's Guild' in WFRP. Others (me) are opposed to using this name.

My position is that you canot use the name 'Thieve Guild' without invoking classic D&D/Pratchett conceptions. As it wouldn't be a classic D&D/Pratchett 'Thieve's Guild' anyway, the name shouldn't be used.

Fresnel said:

I agree, but Afaict, no one has specifically suggested using the name. They have invoked the name in conversation, but I see that as simply using the name to describe the concept, rather than an explicit insistence that that name be used.

EDIT: Ok, LeBlanc is, I notice now!

monkeylite said:

Hehe, we can count on you, LeBlanc, to always stimulate discussions!

ozean said:

Hehee! Hey, I'm just saying that Thieves' Guild is not an invalid name. I'd be good with a group called "The Black Knives", "The Crimson Skulls" or any other number of names. My only point was to state that D&D didn't create the name or the concept. It was around for hundreds of years prior to D&D.

Thieves' Guild as a name for an organization is lame. It's more of a description of what they do rather than the name itself.

If you go back and re-read my earlier posts carefully, I'm not arguing that a thieves' guild must be called Thieves' Guild.

Fresnel said:

You are being ridiculous. Thieve's Guild is not its name. Its what it is. The Knights of the Temple are an example or a Warrior Fraternity, but they are not called a Warrior Fraternity, but if I was going to create rules in a game to cover a Warrior Fraternity thats what I would call it.

Even when we ran D&D all those years ago, it was never just called the THIEVES' GUILD. We ran afoul with the Mercantile Throne Corporation or Bibbo's Dock Workers. I had a thief who was a member of a Thieves' Guild called The Arms of Darous.

Its like saying you cant have a career called Fighter cause its too D&D, when all a fighter is is anyone of a militant or highly physical/violent occupation, from knights, to mercenaries, to squires, the thugs, to hunters and gladiators.

Thieves' Guild is a broad term. No different they the term agency in a spy game.

Hmm okay lets agree that the Thief`s guild, may not be a good catchphrase for all organized crime in the old world or the Empire, but at least the name is understood.
But under such an headline Organized Crime of the Empire:, A thief`s guild could be said to exist even in that name. I shall give you some examples of what I mean.

1) The League of Gentlemen Entrepreneurs. Based in Marienburg, its an alliance and clearing-house for various regional an ethnic gangs and independent operators. It acts more like a trading guild.
2) Greenthistle Clan of Bogenhafen, Is a Thief`s guild in name, and is also referred to as a thief`s guild. Because of ethnical discrimination in that particular town, many Halflings have joined the Thief`s guild out of necessity.
3) The Crime Syndicate of Mousillon. A gang simply called the “brotherhood” runs the largest black marked in Mousillon located in the Chapel Quarter. But in truth no gang alone would be powerful enough to run all of Mousillon, because it’s a lawless city, crime is rampant.

With the exception of the last example, the word Thief`s guild is used in various sourcebooks of warhammer 1st and 2nd edition, my question is why change it now?

For me “Thief`s guild” conjures up shady dealings with smugglers of Middenheim, the opium dens of marienburg, and cut-throats Halflings of Bogenhafen. No Disney version or Terry Pratchett comes to mind (even though I`ve read all the discworld books), or the cartoony D&D thief`s guild.
Remember the old Oldenhaller contract? Now there was a real Thief`s guild if there was any.
No for me thief`s guild is an essential part of organized crime, and thus should be named as that. But that doesn`t mean the crime lords are going to call it simply thief`s guild, they will go with names such as The Crimson Revolution, Damoiselle Vert, Garde Cimetiere, the Hounds`Den.

Good gaming

Fresnel said:

Well .. for me and my friends the term brings straight to mind the Thieves Guild from Lahnkmar, from Leibers 'Swords' stories, started in the 1930's. And let's face it, that is probably one of the grittier/grimier, in fact more human, fantasy settings. And yet that was one of the most clear cut 'Thieves Guilds' (as in they even used that term, I believe), as they operated so openly due to the domination they had in the city. Terry Pratchett obviously loved it, as he spoofed it so much in his (frankly tedious after the first 4) discworld books.

Maybe the problem isn't the use of the term, but your choice of reading matter - get back to the source material !! (last paragraph meant as a joke, please take in spirit intended)

Mal Reynolds said:

Obviously this cat is already out of the bag. I guess it's a case of why repeat the mistake in 3rd? The image of benevolent rogues does not sit well with a dark setting.

Let's take your examples:

1) A business acting to fence stolen goods from a neighbouring country with a porous border. There plenty of Real World examples of these. I cannot recall people referring to them as 'Thieves' Guilds'. Why should we in an RPG?

2) A gang formed from a persecuted minority who’s primary income is from crime – that both aids and (often) terrorises its own community. It may also perform acts of retribution/terrorism against its persecutors. Plenty of these. I cannot recall any being called a Thieves’ Guild…

3) A standard crime syndicate. Again no shortage of real world examples, are any referred to as Thieves' Guilds?

Mal Reynolds said:

It may not for you, but it does for me.

The first rule of Thieves' Guild is you don't talk about Thieves' Guild!

The product hasn't even officially been announced yet.... If the book references "how to create a thieves' guild", is that important? Frankly, when you sit down to do it, you'll most likely name it something else anyway, right? Who cares what it's called in the rulebook? This is getting a bit silly now.

Fresnel said:

Fresno; its not that I disagree with you, the word "Thief`s Guild", might mean a lot depending on one`s perspective. And for you it creates images of benevolent rogues or Robin Hood. for me it doesn`t. But we both agree on "organized crime" as being important and a vital aspect of the old world?

and within these boundaries or aspect why not a Thief`s guild? I think even within a gritty setting like warhammer more light-hearted versions of crime will exist, everything from scams, to small theft, will be arround. And at times they will be organized to resemble what we might think of a Thief`s guild.

so what shall we call a organized gang of petty thieves, con artists, that work together provide each other with some protection, and once in a while meet at a secret lair to discuss recent events or assert their own rules and laws upon each other? for me thieves guilds are as good name as anything else.

Or what if a Merchant Guild that is turning rogue and start with illegal activites, wouldn`t that in affect be a Thief`s guild in disguise?

But sure if the word "Thief`s guild" rings bad in your ears (and others), lets call it something else. But in effect it will be almost the same.

Good gaming

Mal Reynolds said:

I think it would be very rare for an entire Merchants Guild to "go rogue". Most Warhammer merchants are already white collar thieves anyway.

yeah...that is so true

Its the merchant guild that usually screw a party arround rather than petty thief`s guild. My party has bad memories working for a Merchant Guild.

the tune ...playing with the big boys now... from the Prince of egypt soundtrack comes to my mind

Mal Reynolds said:

Absolutely.

Mal Reynolds said:

A secret lair? Asserting laws upon each other?

I can imagine a priest of Ranald and his cultists trying to keep a lid on criminal antisocial excess. Why not a cult of Ranald?

Mal Reynolds said:

A guild doesn't own businesses, its members own businesses. Its a trade association. Something like a trade union with the town or city in question being their 'closed shop'. The guild defends and regulates its members interests. If it wants to expand its scope it lobbies the power-that-be to gain it.

The leaders of the guild may be smuggling too - while they lobby to reduce/scrap excise duties. What you suggest would involve something like the guild leaders offering a smuggling service to all members. However, if they were discovered they will be suffer personally and their guild may be disbanded - meaning their member lose all their important advantages it that town/city. At the very least the guild would lose influence.

Its hard to see how something on this scale could plausibly operate. i.e. Where are all the town's tanners getting their hides and where are the finished goods all going?

hi Fresnel

Sorry I called you fresno by the way.

The idea of a Ranald priest running a gang of thieves is a very good idea.

You just resent the idea of calling anything a thief`s guild don`t you. well fine enough. I do hope FFG will make a thieve`s den, and call it thief`s guild. Just to annoy you

good gaming

Reviewing the 2nd edition Career Compendium, it appears that thieves guilds' operated in every town and city.

As far as a Real World example is concerned, the closest I could find arose in France. I would describe them as 'Mafia-like', but ymmv...

If anyone is interested you might want to check out this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Medieval-Underworld-Sutton-History-Classics/dp/0750937270/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1282687030&sr=8-1

Suffice to say that in most places and times a thief arriving in a new town would not need to worry about the local 'Thieves' Guild'.