Will Den of Thieves be released as a 3e product?
Will Den of Thieves be released as a 3e product?
What is Den of Thieves?
Jay's referring to the last book that was being planned (and I think already being worked on) for the second edition. I think it was called Tomb of Thieves, though.
Well there was a shady looking footpad/assassin-type on the last display of the Small But Vicious Seminar video.
I guess that type of material could go in the Slaanesh module as well. Or they might be working on a Thief/Skaven expansion...
A Skaven centered supplement seems to be against the current model, but it would be nice. If one is produced it will undoubtedly be combined with another topic. Not sure if a thief/skaven combo would be appropriate, though. My guess is the Creature Guide/Vault will contain all the skaven material we can expect for some time. Perhaps we will also see some in The Edge of Night, the cover of that adventure seems to suggest this anyway.
It will be nice if they came out with something for each major class like they did with Wizards and priest. They kind of left thiefs out in the cold.
While the exact title is up for debate, it just makes sense that the Thieves/Rogues supplement would be matched with Slaanesh.
...and we know from the GenCon Seminar that it's in the works.
schoon said:
While the exact title is up for debate, it just makes sense that the Thieves/Rogues supplement would be matched with Slaanesh.
Why is that? To me it would seem much more likely that the Slaanesh supplement would be a "gold level" box with aristocrats, nobles and other easily corrupted characters.
doc_cthulhu said:
Why is that? To me it would seem much more likely that the Slaanesh supplement would be a "gold level" box with aristocrats, nobles and other easily corrupted characters.
I actually agree entirely. I typically lump nobles and thieves together (something about taxes 
)
Seriously though, thieves and nobles do tend to use some of the same skill set.
As long as there is no 'Thieve's Guild' I'll be happy with it. Imo this is a particularly silly D&Dish fantasy trope and would seem very out-of-place in the Old World. It's from a 'Light and Fluffy' genre rather than a 'Grim and Gritty' one...
Fresnel said:
As long as there is no 'Thieve's Guild' I'll be happy with it. Imo this is a particularly silly D&Dish fantasy trope and would seem very out-of-place in the Old World. It's from a 'Light and Fluffy' genre rather than a 'Grim and Gritty' one...
Actually I dont consider Thieves Guids to be light and fluffy at all and very proper for the old world. At its core the Mafia is a thieves guild. Any organized crime is. A thieves guild is no more then a cult that joins together for protection, knowledge and joint profit.
Its not some high fantasy or fictional concept. Thieves guilds exist, did exist and alwasy will exist. Its all in how you look at them. Gangs, cults, guilds, unions.
Peacekeeper_b said:
Fresnel said:
As long as there is no 'Thieve's Guild' I'll be happy with it. Imo this is a particularly silly D&Dish fantasy trope and would seem very out-of-place in the Old World. It's from a 'Light and Fluffy' genre rather than a 'Grim and Gritty' one...
Actually I dont consider Thieves Guids to be light and fluffy at all and very proper for the old world. At its core the Mafia is a thieves guild. Any organized crime is. A thieves guild is no more then a cult that joins together for protection, knowledge and joint profit.
Its not some high fantasy or fictional concept. Thieves guilds exist, did exist and alwasy will exist. Its all in how you look at them. Gangs, cults, guilds, unions.
Absolutely. The 'League of Gentlemen Entrepreneurs' in Marienburg (from 1st edition) being a good example from the WFRP world that is integrated into a fairly 'grim and gritty' depiction of the city. Like normal guilds, these organisations aren't necessarily monolithic criminal enterprises, they may simply be loose alliances of people operating in the same trade or 'profession', who want to ensure they don't step on one another's toes and cause unnecessary 'unpleasantness' that is bad for business.
'Sleeping with the fishes' doesn't really sound all that 'light and fluffy' to me...
I totaly agree with Peacekeeper_b there (find it hard not to agree with that guy on many an occasion).
gangs, thief-guilds, crime lords, all are part of the warhammer world. What makes that aspect particular good for a grim and dark world are the shades of grey.In many published adventures for wfrp, the lines between legitimate merchants and seedy crime lords is all blurred. And often adventurers will have to deal with them one way or another.
In Barony of the Damned which took part in Mousillion the gangs where an essential part of how the players solved the adventure.
I think the person who wrote of thief`s guild beeing fluffy and light, saw it in the perspective from a D&D setting, which tend to be more pink and fluffy (still a fine game). But when you actually take that concept from D&D and place in the warhammer world, it kinda get smeared with all the grittines and gloominess that all the pink (and fluffy part) is totally gone, and more resembles a nasty roadkill.
Not that it isn`t an original D&D concept (rather from the real world history), but you get my drift.
I'm all for Thieves' Guilds, but they should be interesting and original and not too cliche. What would be especially cool would be a set of tools that allows you to easily customize the criminal organizations of a town, so in each town, the crime syndicates will have a different feel to them.
For example, do they focus on: petty theft, extortion, smuggling, fraud, robbery?
Do they have connections with lower class workers, nobility, merchants, rogue wizards, city watch, foreigners, specific ethnic groups or cults?
Is there any honour among thieves? Are they cooperating, or at least on speaking terms? Is there a war between different gangs?
Is there a central figure that commands respect? A several leaders vying for control? No discernible leadership?
How are their morals? Cut-throats? Rebels against corrupt aristocracy? Greed, freedom, chaos, fun, justice as primary motivators?
Organised crime... of course. Gangs of criminals... of course. Cults of Ranald... of course.
Calling something a 'Thieve's Guild' however ties it to D&D/Pratchett silliness. Avoid!!!
mcv said:
I'm all for Thieves' Guilds, but they should be interesting and original and not too cliche. What would be especially cool would be a set of tools that allows you to easily customize the criminal organizations of a town, so in each town, the crime syndicates will have a different feel to them.
For example, do they focus on: petty theft, extortion, smuggling, fraud, robbery?
Do they have connections with lower class workers, nobility, merchants, rogue wizards, city watch, foreigners, specific ethnic groups or cults?
Is there any honour among thieves? Are they cooperating, or at least on speaking terms? Is there a war between different gangs?
Is there a central figure that commands respect? A several leaders vying for control? No discernible leadership?
How are their morals? Cut-throats? Rebels against corrupt aristocracy? Greed, freedom, chaos, fun, justice as primary motivators?
I would recommend the AD&D 2nd Edition Thieves' Handbook to you then. It has a lot of that information in it for the guilds.
And you can probably get a copy for a few dollars on ebay or amazon.
Peacekeeper_b said:
I would recommend the AD&D 2nd Edition Thieves' Handbook to you then. It has a lot of that information in it for the guilds.
However it has been finessed 'Thieve's Guild' is still a D&D invented term - a term that Terry Pratchett ran away with to great comic effect.
If you call a mafia-type organisation a 'Thieve's Guild' you have created a unnecessary dissonant in the minds a number of GM - who's first impression of the organisation will be tainted. This is doubly true for Players. If you introduction a 'Thieve's Guild' in play many players will be labouring under a false impression of the organisation - at a metagame level which isn't even good for roleplaying.
WFRP should avoid the term - if it really is simply a label for a criminal gang it is a very bad one (in the context of WFRP). Call it something else for pitty-sake.
If you want a classic Thieve's Guild run by a 'Richard O'Brien' like character then call it that. Hopefully WFRP will not go that way.
Fresnel said:
However it has been finessed 'Thieve's Guild' is still a D&D invented term - a term that Terry Pratchett ran away with to great comic effect.
Actually, Cervantes who died in 1616 wrote a story called "Rinconete y Cortadillo" which mentions and revolves around a thieves' guild WAY before D&D was around. In fact, the story was based in 1606 Seville, Spain and historians actually believed organizations like this existed in the 1600's.
TSR obviously popularized it in the 70's and 80's with a good deal of their products, but they didn't invent it.
LeBlanc13 said:
Actually, Cervantes who died in 1616 wrote a story called "Rinconete y Cortadillo" which mentions and revolves around a thieves' guild WAY before D&D was around. In fact, the story was based in 1606 Seville, Spain and historians actually believed organizations like this existed in the 1600's.
TSR obviously popularized it in the 70's and 80's with a good deal of their products, but they didn't invent it.
I am not disputing that organised crime is old and such gangs gave themselves and were given many names. But Cortadillo didn't write in English so your point is somewhat tenuous - as translation often is. It was also fiction itself.
Whatever the case, the current usage in RPG is heavily associated with D&D and Pratchett conceptions of it. Even if an author creates a believable (within WFRP) criminal organisation - calling it 'The Thieve's Guild' is an error as the name is too heavily loaded. This is the main force of my objection.
What is the case for using this name for a WFRP criminal gang? Why not make up a new one without the baggage?
Fresnel said:
I am not disputing that organised crime is old and such gangs gave themselves and were given many names. But Cortadillo didn't write in English so your point is somewhat tenuous - as translation often is. It was also fiction itself.
Whatever the case, the current usage in RPG is heavily associated with D&D and Pratchett conceptions of it. Even if an author creates a believable (within WFRP) criminal organisation - calling it 'The Thieve's Guild' is an error as the name is too heavily loaded. This is the main force of my objection.
What is the case for using this name for a WFRP criminal gang? Why not make up a new one without the baggage?
Call it what you want. I was just disputing the reference to D&D creating the term. They only popularized it.
Thieves' Guild is evocative though. It is a term people are familiar with and is instantly recognizable. If you want that imagery immediately coming to your players minds, use the term. If you'd rather come up with something else, so be it.
WFRP is set during the late renaissance based on the attire worn by player characters. That was roughly when the burgers and guilds were coming to dominance in larger cities. If thieves' were to form a group, most likely it would be called a guild to reflect the power at that time, although thieves' guild is a bit too obvious. Perhaps they could call themselves the Sanitation Guild, Protection Guild or the Nightwatchman's Guild.
Well, they talk about organized crime in the Winds of Magic expansion’s adventure. There is a fence, so there are thieves (and thugs). But no thieves’ guild. Maybe this is enough to put your worries to rest…
LeBlanc13 said:
Thieves' Guild is evocative though. It is a term people are familiar with and is instantly recognizable. If you want that imagery immediately coming to your players minds, use the term.
My point is that this imagary is inappropriate for WFRP ymmv.
If you want to envoke a mafia-feel than give them a Tilean name. If you want to transport your PCs to Ankh-Morpork then use 'Thieve's Guild'.
ozean said:
Well, they talk about organized crime in the Winds of Magic expansion’s adventure. There is a fence, so there are thieves (and thugs). But no thieves’ guild. Maybe this is enough to put your worries to rest…
Not really. My comment provoked a strong reaction from fairly active posters - I suspect (but don't know) they may be playtesters or even writers for the line... So it may already be written. Perhaps we'll be seeing the 'Agony Aunts', the 'Bloody Fools' and 'Combat Clowns' running around Altdorf. The troll watchmen will be wonderful.
Hopefully this is just my paranoia insanity talking.
Fresnel said:
I suspect (but don't know) they may be playtesters or even writers for the line... So it may already be written.
I suspect (but don't know) you're entirely wrong.
In any case, you seem to be talking past each other. Some people who are saying they like thieves' guilds, istm, are just using the name to describe the notion, and not particularly asking for that name to be used. And others (you) are saying they are happy with the notion, they just dislike that name. So you're not actually disagreeing.