I think the road rules in Tide of Iron are great and realistic. Here's an example of why: I live in the country. I can drive down a flat, straight dirt road fairly easily. If there is an open field to the side of that roadway, I can veer into the field and drive at nearly the same speed with a few more bumps. Now, someone said that roads only effect trucks in Tide of Iron. Not so. Granted, in an open field (basic terrain space), vehicles and infantry can move at the same speed as on roads (except for trucks which get to move faster on roads). Ah, now try moving units through woods...this expends a lot of movement points. However, try moving through woods on a road...for vehicles, you now spend one movement point as opposed to 3. This is a great benefit to using roads IMHO, and very realistic. If I am driving down a dirt road in the country and veer into a field, I can keep driving. If I veer into the woods...stand-by for airbag deployment.

Case in point: I'm a cop and actually did this one night. I was responding to a hot call down a dirt, country road. This occurred in an area referred to as "open range," meaning local ranchers don't have to fence in their cattle. So, I'm cruising along at a nice clip and as I come around a corner, there's a big, black cow standing in the middle of the road. I hit my brakes hard, but on the gravel I could not stop fast enough. The stupid beast just stood there looking at my car barreling toward it. At the last second I swerved to the right which was fortunately an open field. I just zoomed through the field around the cow, and got back on the road. Granted, the stuff in the back of my car bounced nearly to the ceiling and I kicked up so much dust that I couldn't see anything for a few seconds, but it worked.

I disagree that the At the Breaking Point sceneario is unwinable for the Germans. Is it brutal, yes, but not unwinable. We played it the other night and the the Germans did a sweep on the left hooking into the American flank. The attack was spearheaded by the Panzer, whom the Americans found very difficult to deal with. It was a fight to the finish, but the Germans took the game in turn 6.

Granted, the Americans had some HORRIBLE shooting, and the Panzer was seemingly made of unearthly metal..it was still a great battle.

Oh...and I hate when Cows appear out of nowhere

True - the rules are writen nothing like an old set of AH rules. They are full of nonconsistant wording, weird sequenceing and lets not talk about the assault-section at all.

However I find that your rant about the road rules, or lack thereof, misses the facts of manuvering. Most tracked vehicles gain very few advantages from traveling along a road, advantages that mostly relate to movement out of contact. Driving along a paved road in a tank, will not make you go very much faster than the tank running through the wheatfield next to you. What you do gain, is a resonalbly good chance that its solid, level and without things to block progress, as opposed to the average field's tendecy to be muddy, uneven and sprinkled with such things as trees, big stones, hedges and holes. For this reason, roads are a great way to travel between fights. Like you pointed out yourself, at least it will bring down the numbers of breakdowns, and conserve fuel as well, not to mention the drivers nerves.

Once contact has been made with the enemy, called Scenario Start, the rules of the game does not provide for such things a bogging down, throwing a belt or similar mishaps, and so traveling along a road loses a lot of its allure. It is much more important to either avoid enemy fire, or find a good position, that to gain a couple of miles per hour more of speed. Futher in a combatzone you will proberly advance a lot slower anyway, just so you have a chance to spot that AT-gun before it fires more than a couple of shots at you. Tanks proberly can drive faster than the normal movement allowance, as shown by the critical objective card for instance.

Trucks, such as the 2½ ton, and other wheeled vehicles, realy do not like going ofroad. Even something like a jeep realy hates mud, water and plowed fields. Ever driven over a field of turnips, in a car? Most cars and trucks are also much faster than tanks. But only on good, level, hard surfaces. Like roads. This is why they alone get the x2/x3 movement bonus on roads. Outside roads they struggle to keep up with their tracked comrades in arms.

Even then, the one road rule that non-truck units can make use of in many scenarios, is the one that lets you travel along the road at one MP per hex, regardles of the terrain or elevation. Best way to drive through a forest? Road. Best way to drive up that hill? Road. Best way over that stream? Also the road that leads over it.

Roads also lets us play with special rules such as muddy fields, where the roads, are the only raised, and thus dry, clear hexes.

rjmq said:

Sorry to burst your bubble here, but that is a faithful simulation of a real-world tank trap.
The game in question is not based in a high-tech sci-fi world, so no laser beams and force fields against the tank.
I kid you not.

The real effect IS that the movement of a tank or armored vehicle is halted by the trap.

BTW, the following more detailed description can easily evaporate your doubts:

Tank traps are fortifications which are designed to keep tanks and other armored vehicles from passing through certain strategic areas . Tank traps are also used to control motor vehicle access to vulnerable areas like protected parks, beaches, and forests. Some historic examples of tank traps can be seen in some parts of Europe, left over from the Second World War, and modern tank traps can sometimes be seen near parks and reserves. Unfortunately for soldiers, tank traps are not terribly effective against tanks, although they are certainly useful for preventing access by average vehicles in a non-military situation.

A classic tank trap is made by pouring heavy pyramid shaped fortifications from concrete. Typically, the concrete is poured over a large pad, which is designed to prevent tunneling and the use of explosives. The concrete pyramids are too large for tanks to go over, so the tanks must either go around them or figure out a way to go through them. Some tank traps exploit this by essentially funneling tanks into vulnerable areas where they can be picked off with the use of anti-tank weapons.

From a distance, a tank trap can look kind of like a strange set of teeth, which is why some people call them “dragon's teeth.” Many tank traps used multiple lines of these concrete fortifications, often staggered so that tanks would have extreme difficulties if they tried to penetrate the tank trap. The spaces between the fortifications would also be strung with barbed wire, concertina wire, steel rods, and other deterrents which would keep foot soldiers out in addition to tanks.

Interceptor said:

Look I accept the point about roads and woods, it's obvious but it's not germaine to what I'm saying.

Where do you live? The desert? Have you ever been to northern europe? I used to live there, and there is no way a wheeled vehicle is going to travel anywhere like road speed across feilds (if at all actually) which is why the 1/3 movement bonus for trucks on roads makes a heap of sense to me.

The ground is really soft and often very bumpy as well (particularly in northern France). And guess what? Tanks and people on foot are affected by that, so every other game in the world that gives a road movement bonus (all of them for tanks, many for troops as well) are doing exactly the right thing.

TOI is not.

Now if you've got any doubts about this, can I mention some historical evidence (that's not entirely relevant because it's at the other end of Europe but the same principles apply). The German Army in Russia.

Their maps were very inaccurate and they found that many roads they had assumed to be surfaced were in fact not and they experienced delays (and outright bogs) for *all* of their forces whether on tracks, wheels or foot or horse* as a result.

Now you could argue (if you squint) that the game scale of tactical combat precludes fast movement due to combat related friction, fear etc. But if you do that you should deny road movement to trucks (particularly trucks as they rarely have combat roles). It just doesn't make any sense to give a very high bonus to trucks on the one hand and deny it completely to all other units.

It also makes the scenarios feel quite unreal and gamey - what? trucks are the basis of your combat mobility when a turn is around a minute long?

* they still had some horse drawn artillery in 1941

OK but my point about tank traps is two-fold. First encountering and negotiating around a tank trap entails some breakdown or damage risk.

Secondly, a tank trap is ineffective if the road movement cost is the same as the off road movement cost - you have no incentive to go near the thing in the first place. (The point about woods that some people have raised is moot in this scenario on two counts a.) the tank trap is in clear ground, b.) without road movement the eastern edge of the board is too far away. When travelling down the road you might as well think of the woods as clear ground and there are plenty of clear ground paths that are much shorter)

This particular rule severely distorts (IMHO) this scenario as a very obvious line of attack (in the real world) is completely unviable as a result of it, and the woods on the eastern side - instead of being ground in contention as they would be in the real world - become a gimme for the Americans.

rjmq said:

Incorrect. If the tank moves from the road hex with the tank trap into the wooded hex with the road the movement cost is 1. If it moves into the same wooded hex from any other hex, the cost is 3. Woods provide cover, clear ground does not so I disagree strongly with your assertion that the woods should be thought of as clear ground like everything else around it. There's a lot to be said for cover, especially in the scenario in question.

There's an appropriate line from a movie that applies here, "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means." Your whole argument is that this 'obvious' path of attack doesn't work for the tank due to distance and obstacles. Therefore, it must not be an obvious line of attack. I appreciate that you would like it to be, and that you think something should be changed either with the rules or the scenario so that it is, but that's something you and your group will have to decide for yourselves. In the mean time it is the way the scenario is designed, probably for good reason there are enough other issues with the balance or lack of balance with that scenario that don't require getting hung up on made up issues.

rjmq said:

Perhaps an expectation adjustment is needed if you're accusing a game of being gamey. I'm sure we thing Memoir 44 is even more gamey, as we should. Other games probably less gamey. ToI has the level of gaminess that it has. That is not a fault. It is what it is. Don't expect it to be what it isn't. Find a game that is what you want it to be. An obvious alternative is to write fan scenarios that have specific scenario rules that use the rules you would like! That is also part of the ToI package: scenario rules trump ToI standard rules.

"Look I accept the point about roads and woods, it's obvious but it's not germaine to what I'm saying.

Where do you live? The desert? Have you ever been to northern europe? I used to live there, and there is no way a wheeled vehicle is going to travel anywhere like road speed across feilds (if at all actually) which is why the 1/3 movement bonus for trucks on roads makes a heap of sense to me.

The ground is really soft and often very bumpy as well (particularly in northern France). And guess what? Tanks and people on foot are affected by that, so every other game in the world that gives a road movement bonus (all of them for tanks, many for troops as well) are doing exactly the right thing."

Look, i think the main advantage of roads is pretty realistig: it's a lot easier to drive along a road through a wood then crash through the trees. It's leess harsh on the paintwork for one thing.

Tanks tend to be fairly slow as a rule and as all terain vehicles travel pretty much the same speed on feilds and roads.

Perhaps an expectation adjustment is needed if you're accusing a game of being gamey.

Good point. When it comes down to it, this is supposed to be a game that is played for fun, not a 10 hour extravaganza with rules for at guns in deep snow hitting a hull down panzers' turret at a 45 degree angle with a wind speed adjustment of 2 cm per m travelled.

Btw, if FF get around to publishing a russian front expansion that has rules for at guns in deep snow hitting a hull down panzers' turret at a 45 degree angle with a wind speed adjustment of 2 cm per m travelled, I will happily buy it. I'll house rule the hell out of it to simplify it, but I'll still buy it. *hint*

Why don't you just have open slather across the board without regard to terrain (you could even have wormholes to support teleportation - hey there's a theme!)

Go play tannhauser then.

Lord Zurgling said:

Yes fine. But your argument is the same as everyone elses and I don't accept it. You're saying that roads are valuable in the presence of woods. Ok.

But only in the presence of woods? Horse hockey.

And yes it's only a game so it's quite at liberty to model roads as equal to clear and I should just shut up and go and play something else. Also fine.

But it doesn't. It gives trucks road movement, and a quite extreme amount of road movement, but denies any at all to all other units.

Which then distorts other elements, such as terrain, to such an extent that I find myself looking at the rules to determine what's important in this alternative universe rather than thinking things out from first principles like "hmm road, important". Instead I find myself referring to rules and exclaiming "road, completely irrellevant might as well be an ice rink!"

Followed up by "so that means the Amies don't have a vulnerable position on the right (because the tank can come down the road) they have a m***g fortress in that woods that I can't really challenge them in contrary to all expectations from real life".

Which then leads to "so if I wanna get down that side of the board fast and safely I have to use trucks (which travel like sports cars) and despite the vastly better surface of the road my soldiers can't march any faster?"

If you've ever done cross country walking in northern europe, believe me you'll be aware of the real emotional effect that encountering a nice piece of tarmac has on you.

So, what do we have? Trucks = sports cars. Tanks? Don't care at all about roads despite the fact that soft ground can cause bog and the breakdown risk is higher. Troops? March at the same speed through mud and across tarmac. Woods? If you occupy them you can't seriously be challenged because the road running towards them offers no advantage to the attacker. Tank traps? meh. Pretty useless, the only sensible place to put them is across a road but the tanks don't care and will just ignore them.

Sorry, I don't play fantasy games.

rjmq, it is obvious that no one is going to change your mind and you aren't going to change anyone else's mind. It is also obvious you aren't looking for solutions, just to vent (which is fine I suppose), as making House Rules is the answer to your complaint.. So can this thread die already? Not trying to be a jerk, but no siginificant developement since the first post except people getting more argumentative and condescending to each other. Boring.

MightyAtom13 said:

I second this motion...

OK, i second the last post but as a final note, maybe infantry move at the same pace on roads as on CLEAR terrain (not boggy marsh) to represent the fact that a man sprinting on a nice, flat field runs pretty fast, so there would be no real difference for them sprinting a mile an hour faster in game terms.

Rjmq, I suggest you either lighten up or play ASL. It is a game after all.

I think it is very realistic that a WW2 Tank has nearly the same speed in plain grass land as on Roads! Difficult Terrain is in ToI extra marked as Rough or Wood.

So i cant understand the discussion here.

And a single Tank Trap could be very useful. In the At the Breaking Point Scenario, the Tank Trap prevent the American Trucks to take the Bridge Objective too fast. So i think it is a "German" Tank Trap.

Sorry for my bad english, i'm from Germany.

kaufschtick said:

And I Third!

It is more than obvious for now that this thread has no significant purpose or any interesting thoughts can result from it, for that matter.