In our first attempt to play RtL we almost reached Silver Campaign Level after 4 sessions. Its feels really different fom vanilla but it's fun to play nonetheless

A question that came up is with the dice.

Question 1:
As stated in the Rulebook (p. 9 and p. 84) there are limitations regarding dice upgrades, e.g. in Copper Level a hero can upgrade only up to 3 silver dice. Do these upgrade limitations refer only to 'hero upgrades' (buy dice with money and exp. in a city or secret master) or in general (e.g. during a fight, buying dice upgrades with fatigue)?

Question 2:
In addition, the Overlord has a similar ability to add/upgrade dice for 2 threat in encounters, but nowhere is stated that these limitations also apply to him, it should be possible for him to add 5 golden dice to a beastmen for 30 threat during an encounter in Copper Level, correct?

Question 3:
What is recommended to do first? Adding black dice til max. or directly upgrade existing black dice to silver?

thanks

Taken from the RtL rulebook page 24:

While playing out an encounter or dungeon level - or in similar circumstances throughout the Advanced Campaign - in addition to spending 1 fatigue to add a black power die to an attack, a hero can spend 1 fatigue to upgrade a black power die to a silver power die, or a silver power die to a gold power die. A hero can do this as often as he likes, as long as a given power die is upgraded before being rolled. For example, after making an attack roll, a hero could spend 3 fatigue to add an extra gold die to the attack, but he couldn't spend 1 fatigue to roll an extra black die, then spend an additional 2 fatigue after rolling that die to upgrade it to a gold die.

It's been answered in the thread a few threads below this as well. For upgrading with fatigue heroes are only limited to the amount of fatigue they can spend. I'd like to know though, can they upgrade their normal black trait dice all the way to gold or can they only upgrade those to silver and add gold dice afterwards?

The limitations on dice upgrades apply to permanent training. Heroes with fatigue and monsters with threat are allowed to upgrade as much as they can afford. All spending must be done before the given dice are rolled, however. So you could roll Blue Green Yellow Black Black as your basic attack, decide you want more after seeing the results and then spend 2 fatigue for 2 more black dice OR 1 silver die, etc. You could NOT upgrade a black die you've already rolled to silver, however. Same applies to monsters in encounters using threat.

What that means is that while you can still spend fatigue one die at a time to boost an attack that's "almost there" you will still hit the wall of 5 power dice as usual. If you get to 5 black dice without having paid for silver or gold, it's too late to go back. The reason for that, of course, is that "upgrading" a die you already rolled is effectively re-rolling it with added bonuses. If you were allowed to do that then you could boost-roll all your blanks until they weren't blank anymore.

Do note, however, that monsters can ONLY use threat to add dice like this in Encounters. NOT in dungeons. Why they made the distinction, I'm not sure, but encounters and dungeons are treated as separate entities in the rules and this threat rule doesn't exist in dungeons.

Could be because you can get a Lt fighting the heros in an Encounter, but not in a Dungeon. Gives the Lt a bit more chance of doing something as the heros can usually run away if they want to without any penalty, but if the OL loses the heros get a reward.

Steve-O said:

Thanks! This answeres question1 and 2.

I think some of you misunderstood my initial questions. Adding dice was no problem but the dice limit from this Section of the RtL Rulebook:

RtL Rulebook p. 9

Copper Campaign Level
• No hero may upgrade more than three of his trait dice to
silver power dice.

Whether it's allowed to exceed this limit with fatigue or threat or not.

And the third question was a question regarding trait upgrades.
E.g. You're training in a City with Mordrog, who has 3 melee trait and enough money + exp. for 2 trait upgrades.

Would you rather buy 2 additional black, or upgrade 2 dice from black to silver?

What impact has this to damage calculation?

You can only buy one trait upgrade for each hero in a game week, unless you're training in the uiniversity of Greyhaven.

The three silver dice cap applies to hero upgrades that are obtained via TRAINING ONLY , and not via spending fatigue :once each hero trained/upgraded any three of his trait dice from black to silver in the copper level of the campaign, he cannot upgrade anymore until silver level begins.These silver dice are permanent upgrades and once obtained, you'll always roll them without having to spend anything extra.Once silver level begins, each hero may upgrade any number of trait dice to silver(up to a maximum of 5 in each trait), and may upgrade any three silver dice he already has to gold, as long as he pays the XP and coin cost for each upgrade.

Note, that even in the copper level you may if you wanna(heroes-via fatigue only) upgrade trait dice to the best level(gold) and up to the maximum of five power dice if you spend enough fatigue to do so.However this upgrade is temporary and is only applied to the attack roll you're currently making.

For instance, a hero with one black die in his melee trait may spend 2 fatigue to upgrade this black die to gold, and add it to his normal melee damage, but only for the current attack he's making.

Alternately, he can spend those two fatgue to add two more black dice to the attack(thus bringing it to a total of three in this case), or add one silver and one black die for the same amount of fatigue. The only cap to upgrading this way is his surplus of fatigue, and the rule that he may not roll more than the total of 5 power dice(of any kind) for the attack. Even if a hero doesn't have any dice in a particulatr trait that he wants to use, he may spend fatigue to add power dice to that trait for one attack/action.

Thanks for your answer! Would you rather add dice or upgrade dice the first time you train?

zealot12 said:

You can buy up to 2 trait upgrades per week.

RtL Rulebook p. 23

Train
A hero who visits a Training Ground in the train circumstance
may purchase one skill upgrade, or up to two trait upgrades , by
spending coins and XP as described under “Hero Upgrades” on
page 23.

Oh, my mistake then,. The university lets you get two trait upgrades and one skill upgrade per week for each hero.

Well, I try to upgrade the dice to the next level if a hero has three black dice in one of his traits. Most weapons in the game let you spend surges for extra damage and special effects. Since there are three power enhancxements and two surge sides on each die, this gives you a 5/6 probability of inflicting extra damage/getting improved special abilities, if you're rolling with upgraded dice.

I would get to 4 dice first, then start upgrading them. The effect of an additonal black vs upgrading to a silver is almost the same, and the black die is cheaper. I wouldn't want 5 black dice though (at least not until the other 4 were upgraded), as then you lose the ability to add dice after you've hit but just barely failed to kill the target.

I agree with James. Upgrading dice to Silver and Gold leaves the advantage of empty "slots" in your maximum limit of 5 dice so you can boost an attack that's just shy of the mark. Of course, the drawback of a Gold die versus 3 Black dice is that a Gold that rolls a blank is nothing, whereas 3 blacks with one blank might still get something off the other two. I think having the "free space" in your attack profile is the better advantage, though. If you're really worried about rolling blanks you can always use Aim.

Qion said:

1. The limitations are to Trait dice . Trait dice are not what you roll (that's power dice), they are the totals and types that give you free power dice when you make an attack. Trait dice in fact, don't actually exist as dice if you think about it - they are theoretical, or potential, dice only.
Consequently the limitation is only to training (as others have said). There is no limitation on power dice, which are the black, silver and gold dice. During a fight it is possible even during copper level to upgrade to 5 gold dice (assuming you have enough fatigue/power pots etc).

2. As the answer to 1. shows, there is no limitation on the OLs dice adding capability in encounters (other than the usual 5 power dice maiximum.

3. As much as possible upgrade is generally better first, if you can afford the extra cost (you usually can't). This is because
a) you leave more 'empty slots' that can be filled during an attack after rolling the dice with extra dice added by fatigue - for example if you end two damage short of killing a monster you can add a silver dice with 2 fatigue (strictly speaking add a black dice and upgrade it to silver before rolling it). If you have 5 black Trait dice already, you don't have this option. If you have 3 black trait dice and a silver trait dice then you have teh option, but if you roll a blank on teh added dice you still fail to get the kill. If you have 3 silver trait dice then you have the option and if you roll a blank on the added silver power dice then you still can use 2 more fatigue to add another silver power dice (and hope you don't roll another blank.
There are exceptions to this rule when a hero uses his trait dice for something else (eg Nanok, who gets armour bonuses).
b) because it leave cheaper upgrades still available if you have limited cash or XP at a later upgrade time.

Corbon said:

Isn't this completely offset by the fact that you're spending more now ?

I do agree that it's better to upgrade dice, though, for the reasons in (a).

mahkra said:

No, it isn't offset completely because timing is important too. Just because you 'save' some XP and money now doesn't mean that those savings will be available at the right time later. They could be spent on other things, treasures, tamalir upgrades, whatever - not necessarily 'wasted' on those things, just spent.

It is the difference, later, of requiring XP/ cash in 'chunks' of suitable size. If you still have a black dice slot available, for example, then you can be happy coming out of a dungeon ready to train with 37 XP and 1250 cash. But if you have already filled all (or 4) of your black dice slots then you really need 40xp and 1500 cash to have an efficient training session (be able to train two trait dice upgrades instead of 1).
Note that it was upgrade dice rather than add dice early if you can afford it .

Yes, but getting something cheaper now means you have more XP / cash left over, which you could either save for the die upgrade later or use for something else . Getting something more expensive now means you have to wait longer to have enough resources to do anything else.

If the total spent is the same, you're really not gaining anything by buying the more expensive one first. It might make it easier if you don't have the self-control or foresight to save your XP / cash, but A now + B later is exactly the same total spend as B now + A later.