Eviscerator not an edged weapon? What are you smoking?

I wouldn't go Moritat, they are the biggest one trick pony of DH. Guardsmen is typically better because of some insane alternative ranks (penal legion) and because they so completely dominate combat. I recommend a grenade launcher or hellgun.

SomVone said:

I like the way you think....

Or better yet, a hellgun WITH an auxiliary grenade launcher

It you really want to be crazy you put together 'The Gun for Every Occasion'

Spectre Assault Device with Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Melee Attachment, Fireselector (with Manstopper, Inferno, and any other ammo of your choice), Exterminator cartridge, Red dot sight.

An autogun, grenade launcher, spear, shotgun, and flamer all in one convenient package

SomVone said:

well a sword, a knife, an arrow, ... it all has an (cutting)edge
an eviscerator being the industrial chainsaw used for mining and demolishing purposes (and only being abused for combat but not designed for it) has no edge but a chain of sawtooth that run around the "blade"

at least that's what I read in the books...

Mantis877 said:

That sound wicked, but im not sure how practical it is... o.O

At higher levels you want bolt pistols (for melee) and accurate weapons/heavy weaponry/bolt guns for ranged anyway - SP/Las weapons won't cut it anymore vs the bad guys (damage and penetration too low). They can be useful for killing off hordes of henchlings though.

*double post, can't delete this one unfortunately.

The combination of Dusk + Landing massacre was already mentioned twice, and they are good (if your GM allows them).

If you want to really shine stick to the standard Guardsmen-ranks, and put the two highest rolls in BS and S, the next 2 highest in Toughness and WS. Now buy yourself the standard grenade launcher (yes, the one from the Core Rule Book), a few nice rounds of Frags, Kraks and Infernos, a red-dot sight and mount a buzzblade (aka Chain Knife) under it for close combat. everything between 3-240 metres can easily be neutralized with the appropriate grenade, and should an enemy make it into CC then theres a nice suprise for them (after all, a Chain knife can be mounted as a melee attachment and should roughly deal 1d10+3(+SB) Pen 2 Tearing). You can even parry know with the GL ^^.

Later on switch to heavy weapons (not necessarily the stubber) and maybe pick an Eviscerator or 2 Powerfists for CC. Fun times guaranteed.

and yes, quite a lot of mistakes, sorry for English being my 3rd language.

The fact that you speak three languages makes you forgiven, and I didnt notice any errors as a read anyways.

Nihilius said:

So.... Its better to go with guns than the following build Rakiel reccomended?

Parrying is a reaction like dodge, its just all characters get it for free - it allows you to parry melee attacks with another melee weapon, so long as your weapon *can* parry (great weapons for example do not allow parry, as they are unwieldy). Make sure you actually read the "How To Play" section if your planning to fight against GM Dickery.

But uh, I am kind of surprised... All of this and no-one has mentioned the Chaliced Commissariat Operative from IHB? It lets rank 3 guardsmen become something that is essentially a Commissar. Your not, because, well, a Commissar's job is through the Adeptus Munitorium, and they are attached to Imperial Guard units - if they aren't, they aren't really a Commissar. You gain some unique perks, but your not overpowered at all.

I also kind of think people are nuts if they are dismissing two weapon fighting over great weapon fighting automatically. Yes, great weapons do 2d10 and thats wonderful, so you range from doing 2 damage to 20 damage, and have no ability to parry and one less attack when making swift/lightning attacks. You also cannot make use of quick draw, due to errata changes, so you must always spend a half action to ready your weapon unless you happen to walk around with it drawn all the time - this can work in certain situations, but not all the time. However people are correct in saying you suffer a -10 even if you gain two weapon wielder (melee) and ambidextrous, *however*, melee attacks exclusively gain the advantage of hatred talents. Pick up some hatreds, take advantage of them. They tend to be so broad spectrum you can use them almost any time.

If you want to make a bloody evil guardsman, make a feral guardsman from dusk. If you can afford it, give him two mono-moon blades, a some vibe spears, and either a long-las or a hunting rifle.

Moon blades are 1d10 fast weapons (-20 to be parried) and cannot parry, but dodge is a much better stat anyways in my opinion. If your WS far outstrips your dodge give him a balanced or defensive one handed weapon that he can easily quickdraw to parry.

Vibe spears are 1d10+2 R primitive thrown weapons, mono them if you can for all the more awesomeness. Why are these so great? If you injure someone with them, they have to pass a toughess +0 test or suffer fatigue (-10 on all subsequent rolls), additionally, these snare. So if they are hit *at all*, they must make a either STR+0 or AGI+0 test or else they count as helpless - which means all weaponskill tests automatically succeed on them, and you double the damage of your attack (I believe, going on memory here). *Additionally*, to just continue the dickery that is vibe spears, due to errata, if they are hit by the vibe spear you must pass a medicae +0 test to remove it or else the target suffers 1d5 damage that does not get mitigated by toughness or armor. If your GM does not allow you to reuse them at all, and your short on money, I'd look at getting a bone bola's as well - they are thrown snaring weapons that cause toxic damage if they hurt the target, and make no sense to not be reusable.

Hunting Rifles/Long las are accurate basic weapons, so you have additional +10BS given when you aim (so +20 BS total), and due to massive ranges your generally going to be firing at short range (+10 additionally), and if you buy a red dot sight, you now have +40BS when firing an aimed shot at short range. *Additionally* due to them being accurate, every 2 Degrees of Success (every time you beat the test by 10; ie your rolling against a 50, you roll a 30, that is 2 DoS) you add another 1d10 damage, up to a total of 2d10 added - so you can do 3d10+whatever modifiers the weapon has. If you get a long las and use hot shot packs this means you can do up to a 3d10+4 pen 4 tearing attack. If you cant afford either, look at getting a composite bow - its still an accurate weapon, though its primitive unless your GM lets you use explosive or mono'd arrows. But even 3d10+4 primitive damage is nothing much to shake a stick at, primitive makes no difference on TB, only on Armor, and the strongest armor is AP9. So that soaks up to 18 damage, while you can do up to 34 damage in a single shot with lucky rolls.

Other good weapons to look at are firebombs, they are incredibly cheap at 5 gelt, but do 1d10+3 E pen 6 fire damage in a 3m blast. Fire is amazing, why? Because anyone hit by it has to pass an AGI test to not be lit on fire - if they are lit on fire have to pass a WP test every turn to do *anything* but run around screaming helplessly for the rest of the round. *If* they pass this, they can spend an entire round doing a -20AGI test to put the flames out. Otherwise every round they are on fire they suffer 1d10 damage that ignores armor and 1 fatigue. This means if they miss the first round and are lit on fire, the tests become WP-10 and AGI-30. Sure is fun stuff isn't it?

I don't agree that two-weapon fighting is better than a 2-hander. I also think melee is a more powerful build than guns. Whatever you do, specialize. Having to put XP into BS, WS AND Str is pretty hefty. Toughness should always be prioritized - at least until you get to 50+.

Parrying: Guardsmen don't get wall of steel anyways, but do get step aside. With Dodge +10 and +20 your dodge is probably going to be about the same as your parry, even with the Defensive bonus of a weapon. So not being able to parry doesn't matter. You only have 1 Reaction anyway.

It's true that great weapons can't be quick drawn, my GM has house ruled otherwise (same for any 2-h weapon). However, you can't quick draw 2 weapons either - at least that is a sensible interpretation. There is also the fact that best-crafted mono great weapons are relatively cheap compared to the good 1-hander weapons (chain axe and power sword). On earlier levels, doing 2d10 is golden compared to whatever the cheaper 1-handers will do. And the +10 (or +20 if you include BC vs non-BC) makes a difference in damage, that only gets worse the more attacks you get.

Maximum cheese at higher levels would indeed be 2 power fists. Make sure to have an agility of at least 40, and get the Sprint (requires an Elite advance though) and Hard Target talents. Both are very nice for maneuverability/survivability purposes.

A friend of mine is playing a pretty pimped out Guardsman at rank 6, he's dishing out some fearsome damage (and can tank with the best of them in addition)...the Gunslinger Assassin with double bolt pistols can't really keep up in most scenarios. AND he's got a cool personality to boot!

Edit: whatever you do, getting heavy weapons should be obligatory at higher levels though...just make sure you're strong/tough enough to carry them. Another side benefit of going melee - you're upping STR anyways.

Why wouldn't you be able to quick draw 2 weapons? There is nothing in the RAW against it, drawing a weapon simply becomes a free action and you can do as many free actions as you want per turn (well, at least until the GM hits you over the head for being silly).

Honn said:

You're right, by the RAW you can be a Tech-Priest and draw 10 one-handed weapons in each of your Mechandrites

For my part, the reason for not being able to quick draw a great weapon is that it's big and takes more time. I would extend the same logic towards drawing two 1-handers and any basic ranged weapon. Of course, that isn't the RAW so not very interesting.

Aside: I'm glad we don't have any pimped out psykers in our group though, they make everyone else just look silly. Powers like Holocaust (= instakill vs basically anything but the biggest bads) are just lame.

I only let my players have one basic weapon weapon quick draw ready as you say it starts to get silly quickly.

I also think that while you can't QD an two handed melee melee weapon it should be changed to can't QD an unwieldy weapon, so it includes powerfists but doesn't include longswords. Probably some others that are inconsistant with that though.

Well, in my opinion a Great Weapon is not really a viable weapon for acolytes under most circumstances. A Great Weapon is huge and weighs more than twice as much as any Renaissace Zweihänder. So, it is not a Katana or something handy, but a "massive and brutal weapon" (quoted) about the size of a man. There is no sheath for such a weapon and it is not possible to hide it under any circumstances. Furthermore no imperial legislature would allow such weapons to be worn by its citizens (apart from certain feral and death worlds maybe) and it is at least as consiciuous as any MP Lascannon.

Regarding the Gurdsman class as such, I must say that my groups Guardsman always wanted to become a Sniper and is anxious to take the Scout, Marksman, Sniper path, while most of the other players of the group always try to goad him into a more melee focussed direction (as no one else in the group is melee focussed (apart from the Psyker maybe)). He was a little diappointed by all the skills and especially talents the groups Assassin (who is also focussing on sniper skills/talents) is able to draw from in contrast to him. Recently he realized though how good he is on one hand in soaking up damage (best armour, highest TB, most Wounds) and on the other hand in hitting opponents his Chain Sword with Swift Attack over the head if they reach him. The Assassin on the other hand is rather vulnerable if under (supressing) fire and mostly busy dodging bullets. Even in social affairs he fares rather well with Intimidate...

Gurdsman is a great class for unexperienced players, especially those from a Feral World and thus mostly ignorant in regard to the greater Imperium (fluffwise). This class excuses a lot of things due to its stamina and straightforwardness, and offer a lot of options to make him viable under any if not all circumstances.

afaik quick draw let's you draw 2 items per round... not more

but 2 single handed weapons is possible