So, my resident game master introduced me to Dark Heresy about 9 months ago. I played a short campaign, then over the summer have played a longer campaign with him and some of our friends. Now, first off, he got me into the game by telling me about commissars. I freaking love commies. And when he told me he used a commissar in an online game, i asked if i could be one if i every played under him again (at the time, we were still at college, and he had a group playing DH there which i was not a part of.) However, one of the players did not work with the group, so, he invited me into that group this summer, along with inviting me into the summer DH group. In the summer group combat wasn't needed, so I played as a adept, and my GM told me I could be a commie when we got back to college. Then he took it back, saying commissars are too overpowered. However, Commissars and Adepts are the only classes I like. I can tolerate Assassian and Guardsman, and we already had an Arbitrator, adept and cleric, so i thought a tanky Guard would be best for the group. But, after playing in the summer group, my feelings have been hurt. First, my GM has constantly bragged about how epic and overpowered his commie in his online game is, because his GM helped him make it that way. Second, he lets his gf be a battle sister, and with an eviserator she can kill most enemies in one hit. So, It offends me that he wont let me be a commie because its overpowered, especially when he knows how much I love them. However, Im one of his most trusted players, and hes told me things he does to ppl that go against what he says. Basically, if i complained, hed let me be a commie, then make life a living hell for me. So I want to make things hard for him by overpowering my Guardsman like he overpowers his commies and his assassin (another online character). I already plan to make my guard from Gun Metal City, and buy the background the Mara Landing Massacre. Any other suggestions? I want him to be a gun and melee guy, but Ill do whatever will make him strongest. Oh, and if you know who Van Zan is, thats basically who my guys father is

Kinda lame...but ok.

Just specialize in either ballistic or melee. Melee does more damage (disregarding heavy weapons), but has tactical problems. Get a mono BC great weapon as soon as possible, or a lathe-sword. Two-weapon is mostly useless. Get your Strength, Weapon Skill and Toughness up. Carapace armor is probably the way to go. Sanctify your sword at higher ranks. If possible, go for heavy weapons at higher ranks and wreak havoc.

I can't say that I'm very amused about the idea of a GM trying to screw over a player and the other way around... I think this will end with the other characters death because they got in the cross fire of the overpowered commissar and the GM who tries to kill him/her any way he can...

But apart from that I agree with Nihilius. Specialize.

Shooting the heretics from a safe distance with a heavy stubber seems fun but the moment one of them gets in melee range that heavy stubber is only gonna make a nice improvised club.

Melee can really screw up a ballistic guy's day as mentioned above. But you first have to get near the heavy weapons guy. And there are some things in DH you really really really want to shoot from a safe distance...

Both have con's and pro's so go for what seems the most awesome in your eyes.

IMO, the best way to give GMs fits as a Guardsmen is to make yourself invulnerable to the usual GM tricks when it comes to taking characters out of action.

My personal method of optimizing a Guardsman:

1. Dusk as a homeworld. Yes Metallicans get that nice +5 to BS but Dusk has the advantage of coming from a Feral World which gives you the Strength and Toughness to make your Guardsman even better in close combat. You also get a bonus to Perception and Willpower that practically negates the innate Feral World penalty, plus the addition knowledge skills let you spoil the GM's day when you can roll that lucky success that tells you everything you need to know about his Daemon of the Week (especially if that info includes how to hurt it). The real icing on the cake is trait that lets you reduce ALL fear by one rating (Fear 2 becomes Fear 1 and so on). You become immune to Fear 1 and if your GM likes handing out insanity points, you only need 20 IP to become immune to Fear 2. Fear is a guardsman's greatest weakness. Dusk lets you almost ignore it.

2. Make the unluckiest guardsman in the history of 40k. Put every single guardsman background on to the character that the GM will allow. Most are a steal and grant you talents and skills that would cost double that if you could buy them in your career.

3. Pick two specializations. Guardsman are VERY flexible combat characters. You rarely have enough talents at a particular rank to specialize completely into a single aspect. Decide if you want to be a melee badass, gunbunny, or tough-as-nails psychopath from the beginning and take the appropriate talents to match. But don't be afraid to dip into another style if you've got XP to spare. I've had good success playing guardsmen who lay down a wave of fire but still can immediately switch to melee as soon as another acolyte needs help.

4. Weapons. While I agree that dual wielding lacks the direct punch that a great weapon does, it does have a few advantages. The ability to fight with a pistol and sword gives you a great defensive advantage in a +10 to parry while still allowing you to take advantage of your BS or WS (whichever is higher). Plus if you get the gear to go Power Fist, Power Sword you can start slaughtering just about anything. I would always bring a sword, pistol, and rifle no matter my specialization just to make sure I can make use of the guardsman's ability to easily switch between melee and range.

I realize that I am being fairly immature about this ( I even tried to this after I made it but couldnt figure out how) but I dont know how else to show my GM that anything can be overpowered. He and I discussed it last night, and he refuses to admit that his gfs battle sis is overpowered. So, I just want to show him that I can have an overpowered character and not go power crazy. And, I was thinking guns over melee, but having both. Also, i really like the dusk world advantages, but at the same time, it doesnt really fit in with my backstory. It does, however, fit in with my characters father, so maybe ill play with him instead.

I'm not sure what you really want to accomplish, but how about Frag grenades? They are relatively cheap and deadly. They are standard Guard equipment. They have a blast radius ("If you charge, I'll blow you up together with those heretics.") Try to set up fights from a distance. Lasguns have a range of 100m and Semi Auto Fire. With a lucky roll, you can already kill the first opponent while the sister is still busy with readying her weapon and running towards the foe.

Frag grenades are ok at lower ranks, pretty useless at higher ranks. I <3 blind grenades though, can make for great tactical weapons. As well as save your hide - I've dropped a blind grenade in front of myself to avoid getting gunned into smithereens by a heavy bolter aimed at me e.g.

Frankly going the two-weapon route costs a lot of xp, and won't give you a lot of extra damage output. The power sword/power fist combo is an exception though. Our GM banned the power fist so never thought of it. But realize the -10 to WS actually hurts your average damage output a lot when you got Lightning Attack. Once Ascension comes in with that Paragon Talent (can't remember the name) it's a new ballgame.

Two-weapon with both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon is a huge xp sink - you need to take both two-weapon styles, put xp in WS, STR and BS, Ambidex etc etc. Also, doing both means you'll have less xp to spend on other stuff to make your Guardsmen at least a tiny bit more than a one-trick pony. Like Perception, drive, pilot, intimidate etc.
Toughness is obviously a must-have stat for a Guardsman, doubly so if you go melee. The usefulness of Toughness can't be overstated really. A 60+ Toughness along with Carapace armor and True Grit makes you **** hard to kill.

/munchkinism

Nihilius said:

Agree on most of the points here. However the reason I use pistol close combat weapon is not because I have all the talents to make it viable, but because its more survivable.

You put that guardsman in melee not because you expect to solidly win in close combat (though if you can it's a bonus). It's because your generally going to be better at surviving melee then most other classes and you need your teammate alive rather then dead. The parry bonus to a sword makes it a superior weapon for any who DOESN'T specialize in melee. If you want to kill someone in melee, take a greatweapon. If you want to tie it up so it can't hurt your friend, take a sword.

As stated in my last post. I use sword and pistol as a reaction to a melee opponent rather then as a glorious frontal charge.

Mantis877 said:

I dont quite follow... Your saying you use a greatsword without a low melee skill and a pistol together because a guardsman can survive in combat so he doesnt have to kill quite so fast?

No, I'm saying if you're building a melee character, take a great weapon

Otherwise take a sword as a defensive weapon so that you can survive longer. I find I'll often have a higher WS then Agility so Parry keeps me alive longer then Dodge. The sword's entire purpose in this situation is to sit in your off hand to give said parry bonus while you shoot with what ever high damage backup pistol your have.

Mantis877 said:

Well, I have two different character ideas, but Im leaning to the gun guy, So your saving if i enter melee, shot a bolt pistol, but parry with a sword? Is parry a talent, because ive never heard of it. Of course, my highest character is my adept and hes just a FL junky

Parrying is a reaction like dodge, its just all characters get it for free - it allows you to parry melee attacks with another melee weapon, so long as your weapon *can* parry (great weapons for example do not allow parry, as they are unwieldy). Make sure you actually read the "How To Play" section if your planning to fight against GM Dickery.

But uh, I am kind of surprised... All of this and no-one has mentioned the Chaliced Commissariat Operative from IHB? It lets rank 3 guardsmen become something that is essentially a Commissar. Your not, because, well, a Commissar's job is through the Adeptus Munitorium, and they are attached to Imperial Guard units - if they aren't, they aren't really a Commissar. You gain some unique perks, but your not overpowered at all.

I also kind of think people are nuts if they are dismissing two weapon fighting over great weapon fighting automatically. Yes, great weapons do 2d10 and thats wonderful, so you range from doing 2 damage to 20 damage, and have no ability to parry and one less attack when making swift/lightning attacks. You also cannot make use of quick draw, due to errata changes, so you must always spend a half action to ready your weapon unless you happen to walk around with it drawn all the time - this can work in certain situations, but not all the time. However people are correct in saying you suffer a -10 even if you gain two weapon wielder (melee) and ambidextrous, *however*, melee attacks exclusively gain the advantage of hatred talents. Pick up some hatreds, take advantage of them. They tend to be so broad spectrum you can use them almost any time.

If you want to make a bloody evil guardsman, make a feral guardsman from dusk. If you can afford it, give him two mono-moon blades, a some vibe spears, and either a long-las or a hunting rifle.

Moon blades are 1d10 fast weapons (-20 to be parried) and cannot parry, but dodge is a much better stat anyways in my opinion. If your WS far outstrips your dodge give him a balanced or defensive one handed weapon that he can easily quickdraw to parry.

Vibe spears are 1d10+2 R primitive thrown weapons, mono them if you can for all the more awesomeness. Why are these so great? If you injure someone with them, they have to pass a toughess +0 test or suffer fatigue (-10 on all subsequent rolls), additionally, these snare. So if they are hit *at all*, they must make a either STR+0 or AGI+0 test or else they count as helpless - which means all weaponskill tests automatically succeed on them, and you double the damage of your attack (I believe, going on memory here). *Additionally*, to just continue the dickery that is vibe spears, due to errata, if they are hit by the vibe spear you must pass a medicae +0 test to remove it or else the target suffers 1d5 damage that does not get mitigated by toughness or armor. If your GM does not allow you to reuse them at all, and your short on money, I'd look at getting a bone bola's as well - they are thrown snaring weapons that cause toxic damage if they hurt the target, and make no sense to not be reusable.

Hunting Rifles/Long las are accurate basic weapons, so you have additional +10BS given when you aim (so +20 BS total), and due to massive ranges your generally going to be firing at short range (+10 additionally), and if you buy a red dot sight, you now have +40BS when firing an aimed shot at short range. *Additionally* due to them being accurate, every 2 Degrees of Success (every time you beat the test by 10; ie your rolling against a 50, you roll a 30, that is 2 DoS) you add another 1d10 damage, up to a total of 2d10 added - so you can do 3d10+whatever modifiers the weapon has. If you get a long las and use hot shot packs this means you can do up to a 3d10+4 pen 4 tearing attack. If you cant afford either, look at getting a composite bow - its still an accurate weapon, though its primitive unless your GM lets you use explosive or mono'd arrows. But even 3d10+4 primitive damage is nothing much to shake a stick at, primitive makes no difference on TB, only on Armor, and the strongest armor is AP9. So that soaks up to 18 damage, while you can do up to 34 damage in a single shot with lucky rolls.

Other good weapons to look at are firebombs, they are incredibly cheap at 5 gelt, but do 1d10+3 E pen 6 fire damage in a 3m blast. Fire is amazing, why? Because anyone hit by it has to pass an AGI test to not be lit on fire - if they are lit on fire have to pass a WP test every turn to do *anything* but run around screaming helplessly for the rest of the round. *If* they pass this, they can spend an entire round doing a -20AGI test to put the flames out. Otherwise every round they are on fire they suffer 1d10 damage that ignores armor and 1 fatigue. This means if they miss the first round and are lit on fire, the tests become WP-10 and AGI-30. Sure is fun stuff isn't it?

Fire is indeed fun. My group tends not to use it because our GMs (myself included) have tendency to make said fire grow if the environment allows.

*Remembers a series of Deadlands games were the groups first escape plan was 'Set Arizona on fire'*

The Chaliced commissar is indead a nice fun alternate career but it suffers from one slight flaw; Guardsman have to buy fellowship at 500 xp base. Most of the skills that you can get are going to be expensive to improve. But other then that I enjoy the idea of a pseudo-commissar.

Rakiel, dude. You sound like my GM does when he goes on rants. Many thanks for that, im going to look into what you said. My GM is my roommate, so im gonna borrow his books when we get back to college, and ill see what all from your suggestions i can use. I believe were starting at rank 3 or 4, so ill just have to see what all i can get. Ususally we get about 1000 thrones plus we can sell any beginning equipment for full price. Also, i was wondering, what is strength used for? I know its suppose to be top for a guardsman, but most of my DH experience is with an Adept so Im having difficulty thinking in combat mode

Mantis, I love deadlands

Strength is used for hitting people in the face for more damage and for lugging your giant collection of weapons around

A few other skills use it. But they're relatively rare

So does it have to do with how much damage I do?

Yup, you add your SB to your damage roll for melee weapons.

Mantis877 said:

Sweet.... So... I make a guardsman and if i roll well enough to have options i should put the best in WS/BS, T, AG, and S?

1,000 gelt, rank 3 or 4 guardsman and can sell equipment?

Hmm. Make a Guardsman from Dusk, so he is a feral worlder with high STR and T, as well as giving you the advantage of reducing all fear by one level. Take the Mara Landing Massacre to gain back your fate. These two packages together give you +8 starting WP, and +3 starting PER. Take Penal Legionnaire as your starting rank (alt rank: Radicals Handbook), this gives you access to a free hatred of anything (I recommend Heretics, or whatever your GM is most likely to throw against you - people are Chaos happy, and Heretics cover damned near everything), all the combat resistance talents (largely at least), and access to resistance fear (and through background package, resistance psychic powers). So now everything is one tier lower in fear, and you gain a +10 WP on fear checks, and due to your backgrounds, gain +8WP, so you count as having +18WP more than you would. While we are on the talk of alt ranks, take Feral Warrior as your rank 3 alt rank (Inquisitor's Handbook).

Take the axe, las pistol, lasgun, shotgun, knife and guard flak armor at the start. Sell all of it. This is another 510 thrones for you to use, so 1510 now.

If your rank 4 so you can get two weapon wielder melee and ambidextrous both, buy two mono moon-blades (130 thrones, or alternatively just mono a great weapon or such, that runs you 130 still anyways), your hunting rifle with a red dot sight and fire selector (175 thrones), lets say 5 vibe spears (I'd clear with your GM if they are re-usable or not, if they are, 2-3 would likely be fine, but assuming 5 is 70 thrones). Than give him enforcer light carapace with a carapace helm (825), Leaves you with 310 thrones, have fun with them - buy fire bombs, Photo-contacts so you can see in the dark (100), a respirator (25) so you can largely ignore toxins/gases, clip harness with grapnel (55), shock gauntlets if you want to enhance dickery (your grapple attacks become shocking, 100) OR, if you get access to silent move, buy 3 strummers (25 each, so 75 total - three means one is always active).

Fun stuffs.

ImortalLiam said:

All the stats have their use. WS is for melee if you decide to do any of that, BS is for shooting naturally, you can specialize in either or both, T for soaking, AG for moving/dodging, S for doing damage, WP for resisting effects. FEL has the least application, and carefully used you can even get by with low WP since you'll become immune to stuff soon, but still sucks.

That is unless you also happen to make yourself be a feral guardsman from dusk with feral warrior, penal legionnaire, mara landing massacre, *AND* the untouchable background. In which case. Well. Your just a massive walking ****. :<

Rakiel said:

My GM has the Inquisitor's Handbook but hes not too interested in the Radicals Handbook so hes not getting it for quite awhile

if you're just about overpowering does it have to be a guardsman?

a assassin with an eviscerator > SB with Eviscerator

tech-priest is probably out but an omnissian axe (1handed) with a naval shield (1handed) and an eviscerator can be wielded all at the same time

get yourself any character and a hunting rifle is usually enough to do loads of damage... even with an Adept

go for a noble(for the money) adept get a hunting rifle (or nomad which is more powerfull) (read the errata on the extra damage for accurate if you didn't already) and pump your money into guardian skulls with either sacristan bolters or compact angelus/hunting rifles

make sure the disadvantages of an Adepta Sorroritas are worked out all the time (need to go back to holy terra after each mission, is always identifiable by her tattoos (which are directly near the eyes as far as I know so not concealable as a psykers tattoo, ...)

once she has over 10insanity or corruption her pure faith dosn't work so try to assist her getting insanity and corruption

definitely go for range and let her get hurt in melee because that's teamplay ... making characters that compliment each other ;-P

if you really wanna break things and your gm has a book that covers shuriken pistols (eldar weapons) you could try making a moritat assassin gunmetal city character dualwielding shuriken pistols (creatures book and dotdg should cover the weapon I think) and definitely get vibe spears for this character

or try to get your hands on mono vibe spears maybe even lathe a neuro whip and camouflage armour first snare him then melee him at 3m distance and he doesn't even get point blank on you as long as you don't move away (in which case he doesn't have PB anymore)

... just think of something there is enough in the books that are euqal in strength to an eviscerator (autoquill )

and if you ever encounteer an eldar or something make sure she hits him so he has no dodges left and go for the kill

ah one more thing if you do a guardsman go for 2 vanaheims with pistol grip and shot them both at full auto once you are at point blank that is massive hits

Sirion said:

The battle sis was in a game we play over the summer. At college we have a different group, but only one different player. However we have different characters. In this college group Im the guard, there is also an arbi(former battle sis), an adept and a cleric. So i kinda need to be a guard

Well, being an assassin I'm assuming you mean going Moritat, which doesn't really gain anything because tearing on a tearing weapon. Otherwise.. Honestly I'd say your likely to be better off with Guardsman. Assassins get a **** strength gain (500 xp starting) unless you convince your GM to exchange the stat line with another, and sure you get to take advantage of things like being sneaky (assuming your GM doesn't penalize you for trying to be sneaky with an Eviscerator). Honestly, since he starts with 1,000XP anyways he can simply grab an eviscerator and charge into combat all he wants as a Guardsman, it just destroys half his funds.

And I see no reason that a Sororitas would go back to Terra after every mission, I would venture in fact that the hugely vast majority of them would never *see* Terra. Sororitas tattoos are obvious, but still can be concealed, and *only* 10 corruption blocks them from pure faith - insanity does nothing. However, corruption is (barring crazy GM's) incredibly easy for Sororitas to avoid, due to the way Pure Faith works.

I would clear with GM whether splinter pistols would be allowed with moritat, since you can be easily dicked over by something like that, and hope you don't get purged by the Sororitas for using heretical weaponry.

Rakiel said:

no definitely not moritat background because it prevents you from use of the eviscerator (not an edged weapon)

moritat is only an option for the metalican gunsligner with shuriken pistols ;P

since an eviscerator is bulky and you can't parry you're better off with the dodge from assassin and the eviscerator dosn't need that much strength with it's already high damage and not that much weight plus you can ballista sneak-attack the hell out of the sleeping guardsman if you want to