Lightbringer said:

The SAS, The Paras, The Ghurkas, would probably also have instant public recognition. As would arguably the Royal Marines.

That aside, can we have an unbiased (no offence) read thru of where those numbers are mentioned. It seems odd to me to mention a list of battle, then put an abstract number of 'notable regiments' without actually naming them. Just seems pointless. A rough idea of total numbers would have the worth of giving a general idea of the presumably intended VAST 40k style.

Who has the book? Can we get an exact quote from the book, is it indeed saying or implying they've only given numbers for notable regiments?

Adam France said:

Hmmm....I dunno...YOU may know about them and regard them as notable, but ask someone from, say, China to name three British regiments and I think they'd struggle. I know I'd struggle naming three Chinese regiments.

Adam France said:

I don't think it's pointless...it's characterful, creates a feel of a vast campaign...while still leaving the door open to individual interpretation, an important factor in any RPG. If, as a GM, you want the Jericho Reach Crusade to consist of exactly 198, 405,200 Imperial Guardsmen, there's nothing stopping you from setting that out to your players. But the core book need not spell that out to make the setting worth playing.

EDIT: Actually, that's unfair of me, you're not suggesting anything more than a rough figure, sorry, my answer reads as unnecessarily sharp.

In this case "notable" probably means many of the "named" regiments out there, or I would not be surprised if that were not the case. Include some regiments from Calixis and Korunus and... Well, I wouldn't be surprised. Just like unsurprisingly all the Chapters from the DW game will be part of those 800 Marines, and the other Chapters will likely show up shortly thereafter as "officially supported." That way everyone can have their nerdgasm.

Kage

Lightbringer said:

43nd and 48th of Foot, 38th Royal Engineers, (Coldsteam Guard just because of Fontainoi) Connaught Rangers, Black Watch.....

Tibetian 52nd and 53rd Mountain Brigades, 38th Mobile Armed Police Division, all out of Chengdu....

(Want French Guyana next?)

And, taking the 'notable' regiments of WWII (since it offers some of the largest armies and heaviest fighting avalible) compared to army size, you're still only looking at a standing force of something like 1 million men. (not counting endless FNGs)

And, taking the 'notable' regiments of WWII (since it offers some of the largest armies and heaviest fighting avalible) compared to army size, you're still only looking at a standing force of something like 1 million men. (not counting endless FNGs)

Then perhaps you and the Imperium of Mankind have different definitions of notability (to say nothing of a certain encyclopedia...)?

Kage2020 said:

Minor act of pedantry... but it's technically impossible for anything to include any Imperial Guard regiments from Koronus. The Koronus Expanse isn't part of the Imperium, and consequently not subject to its laws or tithes. No human-settled world in the Koronus Expanse contributes anything to the Imperial war effort, except for the wealth of Rogue Traders.

No human-settled world in the Koronus Expanse contributes anything to the Imperial war effort, except for the wealth of Rogue Traders.

Unless of course a Rogue Trader bought a couple regiments from one of his pet worlds in the Expanse and sells (or rents) them to the Imperium as mercenaries.

If there are absolutely no worlds that pay tithes then, yes, that would be true. I've never really read through Rogue Trader except to see how FFG handled certain rules...

Kage

Not sure if this has been brought up yet, but the Tau empire is on the Eastern Fringes, and Tau do not have warp travel. They can barely hold on to their expanding empire.

Also, way back April the weekly article about Deathwatch was about the Jericho Reach. It starts thus:

Welcome to the Eastern Fringe

The Jericho Reach lies far on the Eastern Fringe of the Imperium, a place that has been all but forgotten but now lies at the center of an Imperial Crusade to reconquer its territory...for within the Jericho Reach lies a singular prize; an ancient and mysterious warp gate that links it to the other side of the galaxy.

Actually, the Tau have a short range warp travel. They can't go long distances reliably through the warp, but across short distances, it's actually more reliable then the Imperial method, as it lacks the problem of being eaten by daemons.

Notable proformance is a unit is notable proformance in a unit. There's an upward limit on both how outnumbered a unit can be and still hold, and how many times that you can be wiped out to a man.

BaronIveagh said:

Actually, since they lack psykers and navigators, they are completely unable to navigate the warp.

Their long distance travel is accomplished by a variant warp drive that pulls the ship into the skin that separates reality and the warp, and just before the skin breaks, they slingshot themselves into real space at high speeds. Thus, they don't have warp travel at all, but physical ftl travel assisted by a specialized warp engine.

you know what's interesting is that if there's one 'unit of note' per 10 that are not, that's still only 3.6 million men....

@BaronIveagh

Notable proformance is a unit is notable proformance in a unit. There's an upward limit on both how outnumbered a unit can be and still hold, and how many times that you can be wiped out to a man.

While there probably is a limit on notable unit performance (and certain novels scrape very hard at that point), there's no limit on the scale of an endeavour and thus no limit on the obliviousness of the eye doing the noting - the Last Stand on the Granite Hill becomes a little less impressive when there are five thousand other hills around that also have locally important battles fought on. At some point (which is very likely reached by a Crusade), it becomes easier to just pick out a few regiments and declare them HEROES OF THE IMPERIUM! for their glorious victories rather than weighing their actions against the actions of all the others who might be just as worthy of the title.

Cifer said:

The other problem is that, assuming as I pointed out earlier, that 1 unit in ten is noticed... hell, let's make it one unit in 100. At 5,000 men per regiment, that's 18 million men. Or slightly less then the number of people who reach military age in China in a given year.

Now we divide it in three. Which leaves us with five million men per front. This is better then 200,000, but still not really going to work for a planetary landing.

And, yes there is a limit to the scale of the Endevour. Supply. Remember, the largest army in Europe, commanded by it's most brilliant generals was defeated by supply, not soldiers.

One thing that might be worth considering is that we're not entirely sure as to the nature of the "planetary holdings" in question. A million men and a handful of Marines might be more than adequate for a world with small Tau holdings...

Kage

Actually, since many worlds are under tyranid attacks, how many man does it take to hold a world against the swarm?

I was merely offering up additional information, BaronInveagh. And, as we all know, it only takes 100 Marines to defend a world against Tyrannid attack.

Kage

Since people have started throwing around the term "biased" (as though those people who throw said term around have never been biased against the entire FFG range ever and seem to hate it no matter what... no offence Adam), here is a full write-out of

The Disposition of the Forces of the God-Emperor of Mankind at the Outset of the Achillus Crusade circa 7252.777.M41:

Notable Imperial Guard Units

Cadian Shock Troops: 2 Regiments

Terkarn Armoured: 1 Regiment

Iaxian Tithe Guard: 2 Regiments

Terrax Guard: 3 Regiments

Harakoni Warhawks: 1 Regiment

Mordian Iron Guard: 1 Regiment

29th Descaal Lancers: 1 Regiment

Calixis Sector Levy

Scintillan Heavy Infantry: 2 Regiments

Scintillan Guard: 3 Regiments

Maccabian 5th Drusus's Own" Guard

Maccabian 16th Janissaries

Mortressan 14th Highlanders: 1 Regiment

Gunmetalican 13th Armoured

Volg 3rd "Mercy Bringers"

Landrian 202nd Light Infantry

Monrass 25th Scythewind Recon

Merov Penitentiary Indenture: 4 Penal Legions

Gathalamor Heavy Grenadiers: 8 Battalions

Known Adeptus Astartes Contingents

Angels Vermillion: 1 Company

Space Wolves: 1 Battle Company

White Consuls: 2 Companies

Dark Sons: 3 Companies

Grey Knights: [Restricted]

Blood Swords: 2 Companies

Relictors: 1 Special Detachment

Storm Wardens: 7 Companies

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner.

Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas

Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery

Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies

Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory

Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission

Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions

Recorded Contingents of the Officio Assassinorum

Assassins: [Restricted]

Recorded Contingents of the Adeptus Mechanicus

Adeptus Titanicus - Legio Venator: 3 Battle Maniples, 2 Scout Maniples

Centurio Ordinatus: 1 Ordinatus

Skitarii Tech Guard: 4 Regiments

Ordo Reductor: 2 Siege Formations

Korvath Knight Household: 2 Formations

Legio Cybernetica: 1 Division

Recorded Contingents of the Imperial Fleet

+Vessels of Note

Belial - Emperor Class Battleship

Execution - Eternal Oberon Class Battleship

Proclamation of Wrath - Vengeance Class Grand Cruiser (lost with all hands 786.M41) (including the Crusade leader, Lord Militant Achilus)

Eternal Requiem - Exorcist Class Grand Cruiser

Caelestis Dictatio - Mars Class Battlecruiser

Recorded Contingents of the Departmento Munitorum

Reclamation & Provender Army Inc:

3 Pioneer Regiments

2 Field Enforcement Regiments

4 Labour Battalions

1 Administratum Assay Corps.

Recorded Contingents of the Holy Ordos of the Inquisition

CLASSIFIED

Recorded Contingents/Miscellaneous Forces

The Vassals of Rogue Trader Kazandus Lan (5 ships of the line, equiv/ 3 Regiments Militant)

KarmicCycle said:

That is incorrect. There are even Imperial chartist ships and a rare few Rogue Traders who do not have Navigators. They can still navigate and perform warp jumps. It's just anything greater than four or five light years at a time has exponentially increasing risks of significant errors and/or death. A navigator is not required to plot a warp jump. A navigator is required to plot a long-range warp jump.

With short jumps a ship has to take its bearing and recalculate translation angles, time at warp and what little they can discern of the currents in the local warp.

It's all described very nicely in the RogueTrader rules book on page 310.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Cifer said:

That was, I felt, pretty much covered by "the wealth of Rogue Traders".

MILLANDSON said:

Ok, now we're getting someplace:

Now: this is just my interpretation, mind you:

In this context, I would assume noteable not to mean that they were particularly valourus, but notable in that they represented a measurable force. (Thus we're not mentioning things like attached ogryns or ratlings or anything like that, as there are not enough of them to be worth mentioning.)

List break down:

Notable Imperial Guard Units (Since the notable units are not named, I'm interpreting this to mean there are this many units with forces worth listing)

Cadian Shock Troops: 2 Regiment

Terkarn Armoured: 1 Regiment

Iaxian Tithe Guard: 2 Regiments

Terrax Guard: 3 Regiments

Harakoni Warhawks: 1 Regiment

Mordian Iron Guard: 1 Regiment

29th Descaal Lancers: 1 Regiment

Calixis Sector Levy

Scintillan Heavy Infantry: 2 Regiments (Nice to see heavy infantry used in 40k again.)

Scintillan Guard: 3 Regiments

Maccabian 5th Drusus's Own" Guard

Maccabian 16th Janissaries

Mortressan 14th Highlanders: 1 Regiment

Gunmetalican 13th Armoured (We only have two armored units??? Seriously????)

Volg 3rd "Mercy Bringers"

Landrian 202nd Light Infantry

Monrass 25th Scythewind Recon

Merov Penitentiary Indenture: 4 Penal Legions

Gathalamor Heavy Grenadiers: 8 Battalions

Known Adeptus Astartes Contingents (needs no explanation)

Angels Vermillion: 1 Company

Space Wolves: 1 Battle Company

White Consuls: 2 Companies

Dark Sons: 3 Companies

Grey Knights: [Restricted]

Blood Swords: 2 Companies

Relictors: 1 Special Detachment

Storm Wardens: 7 Companies

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner.

Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas

Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery (approx 200 sisters)

Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies (approx 800 sisters)

Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory (1000 sisters)

Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission (a few squads)

Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions (a few more squads)

Recorded Contingents of the Officio Assassinorum

Assassins: [Restricted]

Recorded Contingents of the Adeptus Mechanicus

Adeptus Titanicus - Legio Venator: 3 Battle Maniples, 2 Scout Maniples (Approximatly 9-15 Battle Titans, 6-10 scout titans)

Centurio Ordinatus: 1 Ordinatus (1 ord is still one frikkin ord, baby!)

Skitarii Tech Guard: 4 Regiments

Ordo Reductor: 2 Siege Formations (Probably equiv 2 heavy bombardment regiments IG)

Korvath Knight Household: 2 Formations (Nice to see Knights in use again)

Legio Cybernetica: 1 Division (We have just lost cabin pressure. For those who don't remember: the Legio Cybernetica is/was the adMech's war robot branch. You know, the 'forbidden silica animus'?)

Recorded Contingents of the Imperial Fleet

+Vessels of Note (Probably accompanied by 6-10 crusiers, and several escort squadrons. Interestinly, no SM vessels appear in this list. Storm Wardens don't have ships???)

Belial - Emperor Class Battleship

Execution - Eternal Oberon Class Battleship

Proclamation of Wrath - Vengeance Class Grand Cruiser (lost with all hands 786.M41) (including the Crusade leader, Lord Militant Achilus) [oops, i wonder how that happened?]

Eternal Requiem - Exorcist Class Grand Cruiser

Caelestis Dictatio - Mars Class Battlecruiser

Recorded Contingents of the Departmento Munitorum (These units would never be 'of note' for their valor. This is a total list)

Reclamation & Provender Army Inc:

3 Pioneer Regiments

2 Field Enforcement Regiments

4 Labour Battalions

1 Administratum Assay Corps.

Recorded Contingents of the Holy Ordos of the Inquisition

CLASSIFIED

Recorded Contingents/Miscellaneous Forces

The Vassals of Rogue Trader Kazandus Lan (5 ships of the line, equiv/ 3 Regiments Militant) (Told ya)

Brother Praetus said:

That is for humans, but something else you are missing. Even without a navigator you need charts of the warp to find safe routes... charts made by navigators, which the Tau still don't have. They also don't have gellar fields.

Read up on your Tau, they don't go into the warp. Case in point, in the global Influence of the Eye of Terror campaign that GW had, to accommodate Tau players, GW had to set up a parallel campaign in Tau space.

KarmicCycle said:

Yeah, Tau and the warp was the point of the Medusa V campeign. Supposedly at the end of it, the Tau decide to have nothing to do with the warp, despite getting all sorts of interesting data. Their reason: the warp makes you crazy.

(Though in all honesty, I never trust GW's wins v losses in these things, as they like to fudge the numbers to suit whatever outcome they want to happen, like with the BFG side of the Black Crusade. If you read down through the entire list they posted in BFG magazine, you'l find that IN victories got double counted in places on different pages.)

I don't see how the presence of a Rogue Trader proves your point.

Which was that they're so powerful and indepdenent that they could just fly through the warp gate in to the Jericho Reach and nobody could stop them. Whereas it seems quite evident that they're there as a part of the actual Crusade, and they sure as hell didn't just elbow their way in to that at the last moment, or fly up and say "just try to stop me!"... Cause that sort of thing just would have ended badly for them, possibly in the form of a lot or Marines teleporting over to their ships.

There seems a huge amount of debate on this thread about the Nids, and to be precise "Canon" to the ...rather shacky "Canon" that is GW's Warhammer 40k. There is a saying that i have used on many, many occasions.......

"If the RPG that you are running, As GM, has an Established Timeline/backstory or is based on a TV series/Film series/Novel series, or in this case a Tabletop wargame, then the following should be remembered at ALL TIMES, You are GM, you are running the game, so you are GOD in the game, what you say as gm in regards to "Canon/Timeline blah blah" goes, if you dont like a particular aspect of said "Canon" either ignore it entirely, or alter it to fit YOUR UNIVERSE, YOUR GAME"

BOO YAH!!!