Peacekeeper_b said:

Give this man a medal.

GalagaGalaxian said:

That's right. You're correct. Something that made sense before in the setting has because of this become questionable, internally inconsistent, and flawed. Great ... let's all celebrate.

Someone else asked what my alternative would have been. I guess set DW at a different time, or perhaps across two or more different times. Off the top of my head - maybe have an extended crusade that lasts 2 centuries, with the nids coming in at the latter end as per canon, but with the potential for character crossover at the other end. Now this of course might require some detailed background info, a proper timeline, setting notes, maybe even ... shock horror ... a setting sourcebook.

Kage2020 said:

A lot more of his posts are based on assumptions like the nobility of the Calixis sector knowing who the Tau are, or that the Imperium is completely incompetant at keeping secrets, and that every tom, ****, and harry involved in the crusade knows way more than any Imperial peasant has any right to.

Blood Pact said:

With respect, while I wouldn't want to assume too much about your interpretation of the 40k universe, I find the term "Imperial peasant" to be revealing. This gets into the previous comment about "medieval" vs. "medievalised." Either way, the thread is taking the usual direction for threads on the forum where criticism (constructive or otherwise) is raised, so I shall bow out.

/Kage

Blood Pact said:

Um, well, as I said: the Damocles Gulf crusade was hardly a secret, as was over 50 years previous. Now, throw in that we have members of House Arcadius, Rogue Traders involved in the Crusade, here, in the Expanse, and kroot seem to not be unknown on the docks of footfall and port wander...

Having at least some idea of who the Tau are would not be terribly surprising.

As far as the actual level of education of the imperial citizen, it varies drastically from world to world, as far as I can determine from fluff. Ultramar, and many worlds on the eastern fringe seem to have a high level of learning, but it's relitivly uneven (certain sciences are missing, theology is more promnent then it would be outside a religeous school, but not overly so) Literature and the arts are common. Math seems surprisingly high, though, again, uneven. From the description of various worlds in the Calixis sector in fluff, this is true here as well. Scintilla, Fenksworld, Malfi, and Prol appear to have education levels you might find surprsingly high. Sephris Secondus and Iocanthos, however seem to fit more your view of the 'imperial peasent'. However, it might be pointed out that void stations, as well as facilities run by the Battlefleet, and almost all admech facilities, maintain very high standards of education compared to the rest of the imperium.

Um... technically, as the Jericho reach is 'outside' the Imperium, a Rogue Trader's warrent frequently trumps an Inquisitorial mandate (I'll see your Lord Inquisitor and Raise you an Emperor of Mankind/High Lords of Terra). In theory, he wouldn't even have to let the Inquisitor on his ship. And, depending on how well off the Rogue trader is, such as Winterscale and his fleet with it's battleships, even if he did spill it, the Inquisition might not have much of a leg to stand on, particularly if he's been good about eliminating any solid evidence of his misdeeds.

That's debateable as the crusade is already underway. I'd assume that at that point, the Imperium officially claims the Reach back as its own.
And even if it's not the case - any Rogue Trader making his way to the Warpgate will likely receive a polite "This is the Imperial Navy speaking, get the frak out of here!". If he sets a foot through it, someone didn't do their job. Rogue Traders and their generally knowledgeable retinue are exactly the guys you don't want in the Reach, since their Navigator will obviously crash the little conspiracy.

The bluff has a good chance of working as long as all people that get into the Reach and either know a lot about xenos or can see the Astronomican are in on it.

As far as familerarity with what goes on on the other side of the Galaxy: The occurance of a 13th Black Crusade [Obscurus] was a subject of appearently common knowlege on the opposite side of the galaxy (Cain's Last Stand) and the Sabbat Worlds Crusade [Pacificus] was also known there. It stands to reason that the Damocles Gulf crusade would be known in Calixis, particularly since it's been over for 50 years.

Common knowlege? We are still talking about an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor and her favorite catspaw (who is also a HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!) here, right? Both of them have access to quite a lot of very classified information (note how calmly Cain mentions the Great Enemy), as do the other veteran tutors at Cain's little schola - and of course, military history would be exactly what a military teacher would know about. Further, the Black Crusade was a little more important than any local Crusade, considering it pretty much threw up Chaos warbands all over the Imperium.

As far as the actual level of education of the imperial citizen, it varies drastically from world to world, as far as I can determine from fluff. Ultramar, and many worlds on the eastern fringe seem to have a high level of learning, but it's relitivly uneven (certain sciences are missing, theology is more promnent then it would be outside a religeous school, but not overly so) Literature and the arts are common. Math seems surprisingly high, though, again, uneven. From the description of various worlds in the Calixis sector in fluff, this is true here as well. Scintilla, Fenksworld, Malfi, and Prol appear to have education levels you might find surprsingly high. Sephris Secondus and Iocanthos, however seem to fit more your view of the 'imperial peasent'. However, it might be pointed out that void stations, as well as facilities run by the Battlefleet, and almost all admech facilities, maintain very high standards of education compared to the rest of the imperium.

From what I've observed, most of the education happens on a need-to-know base. With Imperial hierarchy often being hereditary, you learn what's important in order to do the job your parents did - unless you happen to be a noble, in which case you can pretty much study what you want if you're not among the scions of the house. So if you're an Administratum drone in charge of asessing tithe status, you'll probably know quite a lot about economics, logistics and general value assessment together with a little number juggling - if you're one of ten thousand workers in some Manufactorum, you'll know how to tighten the screws on a B-42 fringe component.

Cifer said:

um, actually, I'l point out that some of the Cain books also contain what are, appearently, openly avalible information (newspaper articals, speech transcripts by public officals, offically released histories, that sort of thing. You know, stuff people might read).

Further, I might point out the entertaining discussion in caves of ice where the administratum drone shows enough of an understanding of a technical readout of a warp sensor to spot an anomaly missed by the admech. I'll leave out death or glory entirly, since, you know, they would have all died if they only knew how to pump water.

And there are governments besides oligarchies and monarchies in the Imperium. How does your model work on worlds where the govenor is democratically elected (Duty Calls)? Or chosin from a senate (Lure of the Expanse)? Or a plutocracy such as ran Pavonis (Ultramarines), where the richest vie for the highest position?

As far as the Jericho reach being part of the Imperium...

"During the thirty-seventh millennium, the High Lords of Terra—as part of a great reassessment of the Domains of Man known as the Third Mesericordia Imperialis Mundi—decreed that the Jericho Sector, along with a dozen others along the Eastern Fringe, were no more..." - Deathwatch

When the High Lords of Terra say that it's not part of the Imperium, I'll take thier word for it. The Crusade has not yet succeeded, and until it does, the region is outside Imperial Space. Further, as many warrents stated purpose is to expand the realms of the Imperium of Man, Inquisitorial involvment could actually be construed as stepping on Rogue Trader's toes, and I would not be surprised to find the high command of the crusade including one or more Rogue Traders.

BaronIveagh said:

BaronIveagh said:

If there's a secret in a game world, how do you guys stage it in order to keep it from being seen through anyway? It seems with proper staging, it should be possible to catch the player's by surprise.

In my experience if player's have a difficult mission on their mind, they don't bother to ask too many questions about what seems to be only a stepping stone on their mission, if you don't get into too much detail with the descriptions.

And if the players want to estimate their new position in the sector, you let them roll a skill or characteristic and unless they have a very good degree of success, you tell them that they are not sure, they might be here or here or here. Of course they are way out east.

And right after that busy them with something pertaining to their original mission, they'll put their eyes on that and put their actual location on the back-burner.

I don't see why with proper staging the big secret has to be let out on any of the first few missions.

Alex

ak-73 said:

(Note: our sessions run six hours, easy)

I had set it up as a misfortune, that thier some of their buisness interests were suffering due to mysterious 'shortages' (In reality goods being shunted away for the Crusade)

Since their command ship was currently in dry dock, the players took their two (fastest) escorts to the worlds in question, and had the explorator and sensechal comb the records while the rogue trader put his fellowship skill to work. Within three days narrative time, the Rogue Trader had gotten a vague direction, and the sensechal had tracked the 'missing' goods as far as the docks, where they found, in a round about way, there was a ship that didn't appear in most obvious records, but did appear in fueling and maintenance scheduals. With no name, the party turned to the navigator to track where it's most likely next port of call would be.

+At this point, the party is running on the assumption that they'eve stumbled onto a smuggling ring.

The party follows it and finds at the next port, aside from yet more 'non-ships', a battlecruiser undergoing some repairs. The Rogue Trader decides that this might be a good time to talk to the navy about the smuggling problem, (since the party managed to recover the Light of Terra (not salvage, recover) in Lure of the Expanse, they have a rather high standing with the battlefleet)

The navy advises to forget about it. The party goes into 'swindle' mode.

+The party assumes that this means that whoever is doing this has paid off the right people. The rogue trader then scores five degrees of success on his fellowship check when wineing and dineing the battlecruisers commander.

The commadore does not reveal the actual secret, but does reveal that the materials are not stolen, but have been diverted by 'segmentum command' for a 'big' operation, one that will require tremendous resources. His own command has been left behind ot patrol this area since repair and refit would not be finished in time to join the rest of the fleet, which was massing near scintilla before they moved on to the staging area.

+at this point the party heads to Scintilla, making a slight detour to the Lathes to pick up thier main ship, which (narrative time) has been laid up for six months after the big shoot out at the end of Lure of the Expanse. Needless to say, arriving in a Grand Cruiser impresses people more then showing up in a raider/destroyer. (I stretched this part out with a minor warp mishap)

At this point I had them re-encounter Lady Sun Lee, whom they had allied with during Lure of the Expanse, (This was logical since her house controls the agriworlds that feed Scintilla) who had come to negotiate in person for a 'very large' produce contract.

+The sensechal points out at this point that while they do not have a competing buisness, they do have two massive manufactuing operations that could produce high quality carapace armor and replacement armor plating for star ships.

The party then negotiates for information on this mystery buyer, with Sun Lee finally settling for 10% of the value of any contracts they win for the information. (the buyer, of course, is an Inquisitorial front organisation, the Nugent-Hand Combine)

Getting a contract in hand, they visit the fleet high command 'since they're in system' to take thier 'old friend' Admiral Benbow (GM can have a sense of humor too, since he was the Admiral that took charge of the Light of Terra from the party) a promised bottle of Cataline Malmsey, 300 years old and a box of cigars from Peltast.

+The poor man never stood a chance. 1 degree of failure vs six degrees of success. If fellowship tests had Righteous Fury it would have been a slaughter. The party found out there was a Crusade on in the Jericho Reach, and that they were taking the goods out to (system redacted) before taking them through the damnedest thing that the Admiral had ever seen. (Which he described, and the party, being through the warp gates in Lure, twigged what it was instantly)

(The party is still debating what to do with this intel.)

So just because you wanted your players to find out, you had an Admiral, who knows that if he leaks information he will be deemed a traitor and shot by the Inquisition, with the large possibility of torture to ensure he didn't tell anyone else, just tell them because they bribed him? That doesn't mean the secret is easy to leak, that's because you pretty much wanted it to be leaked.

MILLANDSON said:

Let's see, get him drunk, and then pump him for information (particularly since thier standing with the battlefleet was somewhere just shy of Heroes of the Imperium). I'm failing to see how (other then GM utterly failed the opposed test) this was my engineering. (Bribery never entered into it.)

Sounds pretty handwavey to me, but the Baron and Mr. France have been pulling **** out of their asses the whole time anyway, so nothing surprising.

Blood Pact said:

Oh, yes, textbook humint is 'handwavey'. Two words: Mata Hari. Using a known weakness to gain access to an information source that already trusts you to a degree is a time honored way to gain access to an information source. In this case the Admiral would be an 'unwitting source' since he's for all intents and purposes being interrogated under the effects of a powerful drug.

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact, you certainly are a rude chap aren't you? Given your past replies in this thread though that you resorted to swearing and insults is not surprising. So you enjoy the little story they gave for the Crusade, kudos to you. Some of us dislike it, we feel the whole lie is the hand-wavey issue and are discussing, civilly, the probabilities or lack there of, of the secret getting out.

There is nothing hand-wavey about disliking the silly lie they decided was imperative to include.

And this issue really boils down to a disagreement on how things in the Administratum and the Adeptus work in general. We do not even see a complete agreement among the authors who pen our favorite setting. Some have books that include news casts, reports, and such, and others treat it like an iron vault from which no information escapes unless "big brother" wishes it so.

I tend to be in agreement with Baron and France, the whole deal will be nixed by any one Navigator being forced to chart any one course, "Oh the Astronomicon is in the Galactic West now...? Hmmm that means we are in the Eastern arms, at least beyond Terra, moving that giant light I look at so often to the other side of where its been" Now there is a chance that the secret could be kept, but it would depend on alot of cooperation from the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, and the Navis Nobilite to say the least.

The Astropaths are a bit easier to keep in the dark with Relays breaking down the distances the message travels and generally keeping them on a need to know basis, at least compared to Navigators. Any Navigator worth his Warp Eye WILL note the location of the Astronomicon (read: Holy Frakkin Terra) as its the damned first thing they try to do when doing what they do.

Alexis

*smiles*

...which is why any Navigator who will sail the Reach as long as the Crusade is underway will already be told what to expect, what not to tell anyone onboard and what happens if he does.

I kind of think of this whole what is and isn't a secret in a different way. I find that most people consider secrets to be a binary on and off status, you either know or you don't. Secrets are really far more variable, there are lots of degrees of truth. Conspiracy theories thrive on this kind of atmosphere which tend to only create more confusion and help the whole secret to remain secret. What I am geting at in a really long boring way is that the local Lords might not be snowballed but they also don't know what is really going on. Some might think it is going into Koronus Expanse, others might think it is going into some other sector and the craziest might think that it is going into the Eye of Terror. Those that have found out it is in the Jericho Reach are going to be drowned out by the crazy theories.

It also one thing to know the truth and another to have enough proof to call the Warmaster out on lying and trying to subvert an entire sector of space. You would need a good bit more then "I heard a guy say some stuff" to call him out. There is also the problem of what does it matter once the soldiers are called up? Are you going to stop suppling them with food and weapons? The prideful would say yes while the smarter thing would say no. The smart would find a way to inform the Warmaster and anyone above him that was in on it that he knows and that the secret is safe with him. That is a man that either needs a promotion or an assassination.

I hope that was coherent I typed this up in between dealing with small children.

Cailieg said:

Wait a second; given the size of the Imperium, why should there be only one way the Administratum and the Adeptus work in general?

And why shouldn't it not only vary over the spatial dimensions but also temporally?

Alex

Blood Pact said:

Heh, resorting to personal attacks now, a sure sign you've no further reasoned arguments left.

Oh btw, feel free to call me Adam.

ak-73 said:

Well I think with 40k almost everything varies to some extent, so yes the ability of the Adeptus to keep secrets and the availability of information would certainly vary planet to planet, system to system, sector to sector and so on. No argument there. However in the case of this secret, it only needs some people to have access to a certain degree of freedom of information to collapse, so the fact these things vary supports the secret not sticking position.

Adam France said:

In James Bond flicks I don't mind either, if the tech he's using is over-the-top. Sure one can go too far over the top but I don't mind this as a plot device.

Not everything has to be totally realistic. If one of my players would complain I'd reply that before 9/11 I would have found the events of that day unrealistic too.

I find the idea unrealistic too (too many people involved) but semi-plausible enough to use in a fictional setting.

Alex

Cifer said:

and of course Navigators don't mix with regular people, much less Imperial Guard conscripts.

Well Alexis, I find the assumptions they've been making insulting, particularly when they turn a complete blind eye to any blatant flaws in them, and just continue to act as gospel.

Part of the problem is that people are basing things off novels. Novels are not 100% canon, I'm sorry but no, they're not. To make something palatable to anyone but the most serious of 40K fanatics they need to take some liberties to produce a better and cooler story. For example, Gaunt has read books by Gideon Ravenor? No ****, both books were written by the same guy, and it shouldn't be taken as a serious testament that literature is too likely to travel half-way accross the galaxy.

There's windows on starships, when it's downright ludicrous to have long rows of portholes all over the place. And that if you don't see the Eye of Terror, then obviously that means you're halfway accross the galaxy, as opposed to just on the wrong side of the ship. And ship is a kilometre long or more and all the unimportant people who wouldn't be in on the secret, the same unimportant people who aren't likely to have the free time or liberty to just go and run accross to the other side because they want to take a peak at the Eye of Terror. In fact, wanting to look at the EoT is probably going to get you by someone who'd rather be on the safe side about whether you're tainted by Chaos. And then there's still the fact that it could be 'above' or 'below' the ship, as there is no universal 'up' for the whole galaxy.

As for just having your Rogue Trader fly through the warp gate... Really? Are we really being so stupid as to assume that the Imperial Navy doesn't have a small fleet camped out on each side of the gate? Probably a much larger one on the Jericho side, so anyone, even a Rogue Trader and his private fleet (which will have people loyal to the Imperium more than the Trader on it) who tries to just sail through without proper authorization is going to get blown out of the void. And if they're not, well they're going to be declared traitors and heretics for opening fire on the forces of our most holy Emperor. Even the influence gained by tattling to the Sector Governors wouldn't save them from that.

The Inquisition and Commissars are watching you. The latter is the less dangerous of the two, because even though they're breathing down your neck they're still right out in the open where you can see them, and official investigations can be sabotaged through a number of interesting means. The Inquisition on the other hand, can be exceptionally subtle, and their jurisdiction is everywhere and everyone, even if the latter part is more theory than fact. But Rogue Traders still aren't exempt, even if they leave Imperial space they're still fair game, which as their own book says is where their real power lies, in being the unquestionable commander of their mission once they're away from the Imperium, while inside it they're as beholden to its rules as everyone else. But I digress, the agents of the Inquisition could be anyone, these people infiltrate malefic cults, the organizations of the Imperium are even easier. The loyal valet who's been serving a Lord Admiral for decades could up and stab him in the neck with a poisoned needle concealed in one of his buttons, because he overheard him discussing the secret with someone who wasn't authorized. Or they could just have a psyker literally rip the information from the mind of some conspirator threatening to reveal it.

Now on to the people who are a threat. We've already established that a logistical train is not going to consist of a ship flying directly from the Lathes (or some other Calixis location) all the way to the front lines of the Jericho Reach. Established it, and prompty handwaved away by, surprise surprise, Mr. France and the Baron. The main depot for the crusade is going to be the planet closest to the gate, even if they have to build a hiveworld to do it. Considering the Departmento Munitorium has such worlds scattered all around the Eye of Terror, making a new one (or repurposing an existing world) seems like little trouble and just the thing the Imperium would do anyway. This cuts down the risk immensly, as anyone who isn't going through the Warp Gate won't have the chance (the small chance) to notice the Eye of Terror is gone, or the entirely more real risk of the ship's Navigator realizing the Astronomicon isn't where it should be. Astropaths aren't as much of a problem as you'd expect, because they work better through relay, than direct transmission, over very large distances, as clearly illustrated in the Roge Trader manual. Thanks to this, you simply have any ignorant Astropath (probably most of them) who's trying to send a message back to the Calixis/Scarus/Ixaniad sectors send it to the relay who's on the Jericho Reach side of the Warp Gate, who sends it to the other side (assuming you don't need to send a ship through with a hardcopy), where upon it is sent according to whatever the normal procedures would be. Keeping both of those two groups in line wouldn't be particularly hard, choosing Navigators from families in good standing, paying them better than normal, and informing them (with the unspoken threat) that the secret is of the utmost importance and cannot afford to be revealed. They'd have quite little to practically gain from letting it get out, the only people worth telling would be Sector Governors, and the reprisals would certainly outweigh the benefits. The same goes for the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.

The biggest risk of leaks would be the officers and crew of those ships who handle the 'middle' part of the logistical chain, those shipping men and materials from the Obscurus-side depots through the Warp Gate to the main distritbution centres in the Jericho Reach, assuming they don't just go all the way to the front lines (where they risk death, so that solves that). These transports, and their naval escorts, would be the real weak link involved. But not a difficult one to contain. The officers, the ones who are likely to actually be in on the secret being kept, as well as be in positions to snoop around or have the requisite knowledge to put 2 and 2 together if they're not, would still have Commissars looking over their shoulders, men and women who are known for being quite fanatically loyal and good at keeping secrets (part of their duties are to keep an eye out for chaos or other unwanted influences). the Imperium, despite the assumptions made previous in this thread seem to think, is not stupid, the weakest link will have the most eyes watching it, so it would be reasonable to expect the Inquisition would watch this aspect of the fleet the most closely, ready to remove any officer, Astropath, or Navigator who gets the stupid idea in their head to blab. While the rank and file crew would be even easier to handle, simply by keeping them from mingling with other naval personel who aren't involved in the Jericho-side of the gate, which isn't to hard. Make sure any shore leave (which I would imagine is not that common) happens there instead of on the Calixis-side of the gate. Any little rumours passed along while making cargo transfers could be largely ignored, strange stories and other such accounts brushed off as tall tales and supersticion from void farers. While I simply don't see too many business interests going on in the middle of a warzone

The Imperium keeps a lid on chaos remember. Oh sure, there's a Great/Arch/etc. Enemy out there, and the average citizen will know that they hate the Imperium and all it stands for, wishing for nothing more than to bring death and destruction to all the domains of the Imperium of Man, but they don't know the big picture now do they? They don't know that just beyond the veil are horrible, incomprehensible monsters that thirst for their very souls and would love nothing more than to swallow up the whole Galaxy in a never-ending orgy of pain and suffering. I think a little secret about where the other side of that Warp Gate is, is a much smaller problem.

As for existence of the Tyranids, or the Tau, well we're not going to get anywhere on that, are we? I shout that they wouldn't know, you shout their do, it's just going to be one big impass, even though the evidence supports my side a bit more than yours, as I've already covered that novels take quite a bit of artistic liscense to tell a good story. Not to mention basing things on the assumption that a great many people have extensive information on xenos threats that exist half a galaxy away.

So tell me again how all this means nothing?

And I switched to personal attacks because you've flippantly been ignoring every bit of reasoned arguement I've laid out, because it doesn't conform to the narrative that you prefer.

Cifer said:

It's unlikely that a Navigator will have any contact that isn't senior staff (and thus likely to already know what's going on, at least to some extent). They're not the kind of people to roam the lower decks, afterall.

Cailieg said:

Which assumes that the Navis Nobilite aren't meant to be in on the secret - considering their typically exalted status within the Imperium, and the way they tend to be fairly isolated from the rest of humanity (equal parts extremely priviledged nobility and warp-gazing mutant freak), I don't see how them knowing is a big deal. To be honest, I don't see the majority of Navigators caring much either.

Cailieg said:

Astropaths see through the medium of the Warp, and consequently don't necessarily have the same concept of distance as normal people. Similarly, Astropaths are capable of sending messages without understanding the contents, meaning that they're not inherently aware of anything they're asked to send.

Back to Navigators... assuming that they care, distance through the Warp is subjective at best and nonexistent at worst; defining "where the Astronomicon is" doesn't necessarily mean a great deal from the perspective of determining your location in the material universe.

As far as I'm concerned, the keeping of secrets and the control of information are an inherent part of the day-to-day existence of the Imperium. Nobody reveals more information than they have to. Information that is revealed is subject to scrutiny and manipulation in order to maintain control. Seeding disinformation and deception regarding the location of a Crusade isn't too big a leap IMO.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

This pretty well sums up how I feel about it. I also don't really understand why this is a big deal on an out of game level. It seems like a great background to me and I plan on using it in both my RT game and in a DW game I am planning. Though in the RT game I am going to have my players be the ones that discover the gate and help begin the secret. dun dun DUN!!! That is of course assuming that they don't derail the whole thing, which they do every time. Should be good fun either way.

edit: grammer