GalagaGalaxian said:

Actually GW regards the rpg as ... hazy canonically iirc. I shall try to find the quote.

Necrons are already active in localised regions, according to the Necron codex, in 815.

ak-73 said:

See - I don't mind mixing it up canonically in my own campaign, or others doing the same. For example, I don't accept the existance of Orks in my version of the setting, the Tau are in fact humans classified as xenos by the racist Imperium, and so on. However I do expect FFG (or the novels for example) to try to stick to existing canon - unless they've got a major reason for not doing so. To not do so is not only lazy (something I personally don't forgive anyway), it damages the overall coherence and sense of the setting. If whole hive fleets can be active when there are said to be none and while Tyranids are believed extinct, then what else can we expect to see in future supplements? Heck maybe they should have added female space marines, to please people who wanted to see such in the game? I see no difference canonically - both are wrong to the previously existing canon.

Cifer said:

Yeah, but that implies Sectors only provide troops and material for Wars being fought near to them ... and I don't really believe this is true. Sometimes it may well be the case, but not always.

When the Tyranids actually return to the galaxy (992 iirc) troops are rushed from all corners of the Imperium to bolster the line against them ... does that mean Sector Lords suddenly put their foot down and started basically rebelling against orders from their superiors? I guess it's possible some might, but a) I can't recall any canon stating any did and b) they'd just be asking to be rubbed out and replaced.

Also the Gate to the Jericho Reach is slap bang on the Calixis border, are we meant to believe Lord Sector Hax and his colleagues would expect troops to be shipped from the Eastern Fringe all the way to Calixis then back through the gate ... because those would be soldiers that come from that region of space?

Yep. This makes perfect sense ...

It's not a handwave excuse, and you've offered far from credible or convincing arguement that the secret is insecure.

So why don't you just shut up and wait to get your hands on the book already, though I have a good feeling you'll not want to call attention to this nonsense after the Deathwatch core makes it in to wider circulation, from the desire not to end up looking really stupid.

I just had a chucklesome conversation with the player of our RT thinking over how quickly he'd have twigged this conspiracy, even had he not be spoiled on it;

Scene - The Gilded Widow, vessle of the Rogue Trader Lord Rakespur bursts back into reality, through the warp gate, after a very brief journey through the Warp. The Castellum of the Widow is abuzz with activity at the deck crews rush hither and yon making appraisals of the space into which the great ancient vessle has sailed.

Lord Rakespur (hereafter LRS) - Okay guys let's see what the Halo Stars beyond the Margin look like, open shutters, Provostos Panoptica give me a complete rundown of our surroundings. We should be seeing Crusade ships, but let's make sure we've not misjumped and are where we need to be.

GM to player playing the Provostos Panoptica (Chief of auspex and scanners) - Make an astro-navigation roll at minus 20

PP - Makes roll.

GM - Hm, you're confused, though you are indeed surrounded by crusade ships, who are hailing you btw, the star system is unidentifiable. Trying to confirm your approximate location out from Kalf by the local stellar neighbourhood you are having trouble finding familiar stars. Indeed if you didn't know better you'd guess you were way wide of your destination, possibly even as far as the Eastern Fringe ... though naturally that seems ludicrous and impossible.

PP - Okay I report that to Lord RS.

LRS - Odd - okay, keep checking and see if you can get a definite location. In the mean time I order the Annunciator Absolute to make contact and announce our arrival to the Navy.

GM - Okay the navy ships come back to you, verifying your entry permits etc.

LRS - Okay, after that I want to speak to a ranking officer as we seem to possibly be off course and maybe they know something about that?

GM - The Captain of the Destroyer Drake responds, what do you want to ask him? - Pcs pass on their strange astro-navigational readings.

GM - The Captain of the Drake assures you you're indeed in the Margin Crusade Zone, in the Halo Stars. The local space and the Halo Warp Storms play havoc with scanners apparently.

LRS - Okay, what's his tone like? Do I believe him?

GM - Make some checks/rolls. - 'Ah - you're not sure, but he does seem rather evasive.'

LRS - The plot thickens. Okay, let's play it cool, I ask him about the main dispositions of the enemies, as we received something of a garbled briefing back in Calixis. Who are the enemy out here anyway?

GM - The Drake's Captain is again evasive, he mentions there are three salients, and the middle salient is fighting Chaos. He then states the upper salient is fighting a classified enemy, and the lower salient is fighting a minor xeno breed your characters won't have heard of.

LRS - Okay well our mission is south ... this xeno breed who are they? You never know some of us have xeno lore, we may know something about them?

GM - Erm ... the Captain of the Drake becomes even more evasive ... he says they're a technological race, who have ... erm yellow starships?

LRS and all the players as one - TAU!!!! We are in the fricking Eastern Fringe!!!

GM - You don't know that!

LRS - Okay let us make some xeno lore rolls. We have a vast library on this ship, which has a xeno-section, that should give us a bonus.

GM - Grumbles. Dice rolls later and the identity of the third salient foe is out of the bag. Thoroughly suspicious, not to say convinced, now that they are in the Eastern Fringe, the pcs push for more info on the upper salient.

Later, before they get permission to leave the system, an Inquisitor comes aboard their ship and threatens them with dire consequences if they should spread 'false rumours' about the location of this crusade region. The pcs make the properly timid replies and promise not to tell anyone.

Over the course of the mission they fight Tau, question a couple of captives to confirm they are definitely in the Eastern Fringe, and subtly sound out other Imperial npcs about what the frick is going on. By the end of the adventure they're heading legally back home to Calixis, with collected evidence the Crusade is not taking place where it should be. Once home the team's Spymaster begins the ultra secret auction of the biggest secret in Calixis Space to the great and good from whom it was conceived to deceive. A secret that will shake three sectors should be worth a lot ... 20 Profit Points 30 even!

- It's that simple. No one else thought to do this over 20 years?

So, the Inquisition gets wind of the auction. They trace the source back to a Rogue Trader by the name of LRS, who records show gave an oath to uphold the secret to the Inquisition. The Rogue Trader is labeled traitor and enemy of the Imperium. All his dynasty's assets within the Imperium are seized, his charter of trade is revoked, and anyone involved with the auction is either made to understand the truth of the matter, or taken to be in league with this traitor and dealt with accordingly.

Eventually the Inquisitor in charge manages to capture the traitor and bring him and his crew to the Emperors Justice. They are interrogated for several months after which they are found guilty. They are either executed or mindwiped and turned into servitors to live out the rest of their flesh years serving the Imperium in a manner fit for a traitor.

Ah, the joys of monodominants. Of course, the secret could potentially be out there, then. Might make an interesting story as RTs move to exploit it. Lots of Profit Factor and whatsit.

For me that's about the best salvage to come out of the premise of the Big Secret—revealing it. As with all things 40k Image, they tend to be somewhat fragile when you move them into narrative, but that does tend to create easily exploitable plot hooks.

YMMV.

Kage

BaronIveagh said:

I dont think it is that simple. Joe Deckhand may look out in space and think "hmmm cant see that big red light in this part of space. Neat." But he isnt going to say "Hey this area of space I have never been to looks nothing like another area of space Ive never been through!"

I am perfectly positive that the ship priests, the ship commissars, the propagand people, the orders given out and the reports given to those who need reports cover all this in full.

"Dear hapless ship slave, rating, guardsman and other nameless lackey. You may be wondering why the big red storm of evil, known as the Eye of Terror in sermon, is no longer visible. Well, with the distance we have travelled and the effects of warp travel, the gravitational fields of these systems and the extra super duper protection of our new Geller Field 2000 Omega edition, that red light is depleted by the time it reaches you, our loved and sacred workforce.

Good news denizens of our ship's dark hulls, the shipment of new red shirts have just arrive and the command crew of Commissar Chekov, Commander Kirk, Inquisitor Spock, Magos Scotty, Flight Lt. Sulu and Crewman Number 9 will be setting off to recover an ancient evil daemonic ship's compass from the daemonic spirit lord of tyranid goodness on that yonder Tau moon. Wish them luck!"

"Oh and by the way, by Tau we mean Enoulian!"

I also think the nobility and higher ups in Calixis would not be too familiar with the eastern fringe or its races, invading forces or not. As they would be more concerned with the Tyrant Star, the Slaugth, Haarlock, a few worlds in the sector under ORK siege and the colonization and exploration of the Koronus Expanse. In fact, I bet if you told the good nobles and governors thier IG tithes were headed into the expanse to make money and explore in the sectors, and to a certain extent, the nobles names, then they would be all for it.

Of course, once in the expanse they just happend through a warp gate.

Yeah, Adam...

You're the one who's handwaving things now.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Or for an even simpler explanation!

" Huh, it must be on the other side of the ship. " Or above or below it too, since there's no universal 'up' in the galaxy that every stellar body and ship conforms to. You could be a mere 1,000 lightyears from the Eye of Terror, for the sake of arguement, and not be able to see it out any window because it's effectively 'below' you from the perspective of everyone on board.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Um... technically, as the Jericho reach is 'outside' the Imperium, a Rogue Trader's warrent frequently trumps an Inquisitorial mandate (I'll see your Lord Inquisitor and Raise you an Emperor of Mankind/High Lords of Terra). In theory, he wouldn't even have to let the Inquisitor on his ship. And, depending on how well off the Rogue trader is, such as Winterscale and his fleet with it's battleships, even if he did spill it, the Inquisition might not have much of a leg to stand on, particularly if he's been good about eliminating any solid evidence of his misdeeds.

It gets more complicated if the Rogue trader has freinds inside the Conclave with an axe to grind with the Inquisitor in question.

As far as familerarity with what goes on on the other side of the Galaxy: The occurance of a 13th Black Crusade [Obscurus] was a subject of appearently common knowlege on the opposite side of the galaxy (Cain's Last Stand) and the Sabbat Worlds Crusade [Pacificus] was also known there. It stands to reason that the Damocles Gulf crusade would be known in Calixis, particularly since it's been over for 50 years.

Granted, shipboard movement could fool people for a little while. The problem is that (if fluff is to be belived) voidfarers have a very good sense of how the ship is manuvering. (Death or Glory)

Well, it's the 40k universe. Handwavium is basically 40k's Dark Matter in that it constitutes the majority of the universe. For example, consider that the majority of the counter-argument is based upon the medieval approach to the Imperium (not just medievalised) with such things like curiosity, communications, dissemination of information, etc. That this might be considered the de facto setting or interpretation for the official RPG line is reasonable, but there is also a great deal of idiosyncratic and alternate interpretations to the 40k universe based upon the wider body of materials.

In short? Is it possible for a secret to be kept. I would imagine that it would be extremely difficult, though it is certainly made easier with the medieval "forehead knuckle" approach to the "majority of people." Is it possible that the secret can get out? For sure.

YMMV to others as to which is more "realistic," since ultimately when dealing with the 40k universe we're talking about what we find personally more palatable.

Would I have preferred a less hokey approach? Yeah, pretty much. On the other hand, if I were to run a game in the Jericho Reach (and you never know, I might), I would just exploit this as a story line: the chase to get the secret out, and the chase to keep the secret. Two stories in one.

Kage

ItsUncertainWho said:

That's all railroad though. Yes there should a chance that could happen, but unlike FFG's dogma I don't approve of forcing the stability of the setting by GM fiat. If the pc's are doing something plausible and possible, yes there may be risks, but they may well get past them.

Ultimately my point was that someone inevitably would have blown this secret long before 815 ... not that I'm ever going to ruin my lovely ongoing campaign by using it as a plot point or mission.

Kage2020 said:

I never would use it personally Kage. It's a secret that wouldn't fool my players for even a whole session, so it's worthless to me. I prefer my players to have to work to get to the truth of 'big mysteries' ... when they twigged the ex-Lord Rakespur's castellan was in fact still alive and an ex Bewilderness Commando who apparently was using a Harlequin stealth suit and possibly was up to no good, they felt a sense of achievement because they worked for it and had to use their brain. They got to the truth quicker than I'd have liked, but they deserved their success.

I guess you'd have to have the pcs in the know with this ludicrous conspiracy, but that doesn't really appeal and besides at absolute bottom it's just not that good an idea. Imho.

Blood Pact said:

Nope, my arguments are based around canon. Handwave implies coming up with broad terms ('splinter fleet', 'Imperial grunts are ignorant', 'the Inquisition keeps the secret') that have a half truth to them, a cernel of believability, but ultimately don't really answer the whole problem. They provide something someone who wants to believe the point in question with a mental out, an answer that doesn't really need to be considered, because it's just an excuse really so the problem can be happily ignored going onwards.

Canon states tyranids are not active in the galaxy in 815, and this makes sense bearing in mind the dates of the 1st and 2nd Tyrannic Wars, and the nature of Tyranids and the prority the Imperium regards battling them.

Handwave - 'Yeah, but canon always changes.'

See what I mean? Yes, canon does sometimes change. However that doesn't really address the problem of having a anti-canonical Tyrannic War set in this time.

I guess it depends on how you spin it in the story. If you're pushing the incompetent "High Command" angle, trying to keep it secret might work to flavour up the setting. That and, as superficially illustrated, it can be used for interesting story lines.

On the other hand, I can empathise. I can remember running the Knightfall game in MegaTraveller . The default assumption in that game is that the PCs have their ship stolen and then chase after it. My group? "Well, starships are expensive things worth millions of credits. You would have an insurance policy against that kind of thing, surely? I'm a trader, so chasing after starship thieves just seems like it's the Navy's job."

Plot flaw. Not that I couldn't get out of it with a bit of plausible retroactive storytelling about how they were down on their times, the contracts just haven't been coming through, so while they've managed to keep up with their ship payments, the insurance payments have defaulted. I also threw a device at the first person that said, "We could always file for bankruptcy."

Sometimes you've just go to patch holes and make plot hooks out of the frayed intent of game settings.

Kage

On the question of the existance of tyranids, I have to ask what you perfer as an alternitive? Should there be no Tyranid section in Deathwatch, there by removing one of the biggest enemies the anti-xeno warriors are faced with fighting? Or should Deathwatch be tranfigured to another time, bringing it out of sync with the 'normal' time listed in Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy?

Really, minor modification of timelines, particularly when talking about a sweeping generalization, doesn't really seem that bad for me. As much as I hate to return to the 'is your game' argument, I would personaly be annoyed if there was no 'nid information, and if it bugs you, don't use that section for a couple hundred years (game time).

Its not anti-canonical, because FFG has GW's express permission to rewrite canon (barring GW's approval). FFG says there are nids in 815.M41, GW approved it seems, there are now Nids in 815.M41.

My personal take on keeping the secret of the Crusade. ( YMMV )

Short term: plausible. Given enough trouble you can keep the secret for a while. Although it will require some very draconian measures.

Long term: no. An ongoing operation of this magnitude will be exposed. There are simply too many variables that can go wrong.

Considering the implications to sector level politics, the revelation and its consequences would make for a very good Ascension level campaign.

The Warp Gate remains a secret as does the fact that the crusadeis actually in the Eastern Fringe because the Two Lost Primarchs and their female Space Marines protect that secret.

Two threads finished.

Move on.

My RT party figured it out in one session, without knowing what was going on. They figured it out by combination of 'shortfalls' in production in operations they had shares in, cargo manifests, and working some contacts within the fleet.

Working back through resupply and docking records, they followed it back to even get a general location. (this is due to 'holes' in the records, such as a record that states that all docking rings were taking on fuel, but the manifests showing a discrepency. The administratum produces too many records for everything to be hidden entirely on relitivly short notice.)

In other words, you completely made up reason for them to find it by some ST fiat of your own.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I support this notion.

Blood Pact said:

A lot of BaronInveagh's post seems reasonable extrapolations based upon the structure of the Imperium, or at least what little we're given to understand in any degree of detail, and the concept of "The Big Secret." It might not be what everyone would do, but I'm not entirely sure that it really necessitates the angst that I've seen coming through on some of the posts. (Of course, being passionate about something is fine and dandy...)

ST=Storyteller? So, yeah, GM's working with the the materials that they're given, or changing them when they see fit. After all, one might just say that "The Big Secret" is just game developer fiat. That is, something that they thought would be cool and so they put it in there. That you can justify—or ****—it using the same background materials that we're all familiar with just means that it is a flexible setting whose various choices will appeal or not depending on the individual.

And if the female Marines thread would blow over, I would love that too, but only because I'm not overtly passionate about the premise of the discussion. Constructively discussing a setting information, however? That's something that I have a little more time for...

Kage

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