The Space Marines aren't likely to talk, while the Inquisition are in large part some of the ones who are working to keep the secret.

I can't see to many traders, whether Free or Rogue, travelling in to active warzones either, at least not in anything more than relatively small numbers, same goes with large business cartels. And the artistocracy are not going to be travelling there except as part of the crusade forces, or with colonization efforts, in either case they're not going to be coming back.

While high ranking members of the military will probably know that their resources and manpower will dry up if the secret gets out, and that there will be hell to pay from both the Commissriat and Inquisition.

Remember that the rich and powerful aren't above being murdered in the middle of the night for getting too uppity with thoughts of independence, or other shenanigans. Perhaps the secret does spread a bit too far, and some merchant cartel or noble house gets it in their head to blow the whistle... and then most or all of them are gruesomely anihilated by an assassin of the Eversor temple.

The statment in the 'nid codex is also self contradictory if you count the splinter fleets created from the Maggrage and Iyadan wars, many of which re-coalessed into their own little hive fleets before being splintered again, repeat at nausium.

Actually, since I work in field of logistic so let's me take a shot at this.

The key to the secrecy is compartmentalize the information, and also keep in mind that it's not likely for the original ship will take the man to the final destination.

First step, you need a rear base for gathering troop from the 3 sectors in Western Fringe. Let's say it's will serve as the staging ground for the troops from the 3 sectors. Basically, the War Master of the crusade only need tell the sector governors that they need the troop to be gathered at this rear base for training before take to front line. Also for all the navy personal that responsible for transport troop to this base, they only know about this rear base.

Second step, we are transporting the troops from rear base through the gate into rear war zone. This route will only run by those people who can keep the secret of the warp gate. They are only one who need to know about the warp gate.

Third step is distributing of troop from rear war zone to the front line. This part, if you only use ship in the existing field, than there is no chance for enemy to find out. The only thing they will find out is they have a base in the rear part of war zone, which is expected by enemy any way.

Qingtian said:

Hmmm... The flaw here is that you'd have to expend the resources to set up basically two hive worlds, one on either side of the gate as your central distribution points. This leads to serious issues with the possiblity of enemy infiltration of key points of resupply as well as creating a choke point in your supply line. The other problem is scale. Using the Fenksworld Calamity as an example, if, in a single moment, there are dozens of ships docked for resupply that can be taken out by a ship adrift, even a really big ones, then it would take hundreds of ships to support supply distribution from Fenksworld. Which was one depot world to just one front of the fighting.

If we're moving 11 billion men, at, something like 20,000 (roughly 4-5 regiments) men per transport, that's 550,000 transport loads of men, alone. Not counting supplies for those men. Or the fleet that would be accompaning them. Just the men and their wargear.

At, lets be liberal and say a week, one way, and a target of 1 year to deploy the army, and assumign they can offload everything in under an hour and there are no mishaps along the way...

That's 21,153 transports to deploy that many troops in one year. At FFG numbers for ship crews, that's 634,590,000 men that might know something.

This is a not going to be secret for long.

I think your forgeting the other half of the scale. 11 billon men are being drawn from (typicaly) the top 10% of a planets standing millitary. Which (to use the US as an example) is 0.5% of their population. So 11 billion men are drawn from 22 trillion imperial citizens. So assuming that the crews of those ships only spread back to those specific worlds, you talking about 1 person in ~34,000 may have noticed something that seemed out of place. Not exactly enough to set out a wildfire of information.

I still think that among the powerful and educated semi-free thinkers, the secret isn't going to last to long, but I can see it still not being common knowledge. Its been pointed out many times the large number of holes in the cover story.

You might also be over-estimating how many troops are involved in the crusade. I mean, dozens of the planets in the Jericho Reach remained loyal to the Imperium during the Age of Shadow (the millenium of Jericho being outside of Imperium control) and therefore do not require troops to take them, and are actively providing troops and supplies to the crusade effort. Sure, more troops are needed from the other side of the gate, but not quite the billions you are suggesting.

Quicksilver said:

The problem isn't that the crews go back to thier homeworld. It's that they stop in a port. Let's say that that one guy tells two guys he meets in a bar. They go back to thier ships and mention it to some pals in the mess. Next time they reach port, they talk about the story to someone.

Before you know it, half the civilian shipping in Calixis knows about it, and from there it's only a matter of time before a rogue trader or a free captain decides to try to figue out where the gate is and sneak a load of goods through the gate and come back with a load of stuff from the far off Jericho Reach.

Now you have two outcomes: the Inquisition blows up his ship, or he pulls it off. If the ship goes missing, the rumor gains creedence. If he comes back loaded, the rumor really gains creedence. As far as secrecy goes though, well....

Edit: 11 billion was a number someone said earlier and I was using it to make my point. Though typically imperial crusades do seem to run to the billions of guardsmen.

Edit Mk2: Wait, so the sector is loyal to the imperium that they have not see nor heard for a thouand years, despite both the forces of Chaos and the Tau running around? Doesn't that poke a big hole in the whole 'imperium is required to hold of the horrors of X?"

I didn't say the whole sector, I said dozens of planets. That still leaves over three quarters of the sector (the map doesn't show all of the planets in the sector, just those deemed important) open for Tau/Chaos influence.

As for billions of guardsmen... you do know that that is basically the entire population of a planet (or, using your 11 billion, almost twice the population of Earth)? Crusades might run into hundreds of millions, but I've never seen anything to say that any have basically had whole planetary population's worth of soldiers involved in it, unless it's a war to repel another Black Crusade.

The problem isn't that the crews go back to thier homeworld. It's that they stop in a port. Let's say that that one guy tells two guys he meets in a bar. They go back to thier ships and mention it to some pals in the mess. Next time they reach port, they talk about the story to someone.

Who's that one guy? IMO, he's either someone who doesn't actually know anything about where the crusade actually is or someone who has had an Inquisitor breathing down his neck and telling him that people who talk about such kinds of things have a habit of disappearing.

Before you know it, half the civilian shipping in Calixis knows about it, and from there it's only a matter of time before a rogue trader or a free captain decides to try to figue out where the gate is and sneak a load of goods through the gate and come back with a load of stuff from the far off Jericho Reach.

Now you have two outcomes: the Inquisition blows up his ship, or he pulls it off. If the ship goes missing, the rumor gains creedence. If he comes back loaded, the rumor really gains creedence. As far as secrecy goes though, well....

Considering the gate is probably heavily guarded by now, the latter is unlikely. And the rumour gaining more believability by a RT dissappearing? When there's all kinds of rather nasty things in space that can befall RTs that have nothing to do with them coming just an inch closer to reaching their goals, that logic is doubtful. And would the Rogue Trader really make it known that he's searching for a secret warp gate that was probably hidden on order of the big -=I=-?

The Seige of Vraks consumed almost 14 million guardsmen KIA, the destruction of 9 of 22 deployed titans, and the intervention of four space marine chapters, including the Gray Knights, against a force of 8 million defenders including a relative handful of chaos space marines. It took 18 years.

That was one battle on one planet in the Scarus sector.

What you guys are describing sounds like something more along the lines of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade (8 billion guardsmen).

Edit: I was making the observation that it takes one crewman to let the cat out of the bag. The Big -=I=- is not omnicent. When you have almost half a billion people who are moving back and forth through that gate, at some point, someone will talk. It's one of those 'too many people know something to keep it hush hush'. It's like covering up the existance of the Horus Heresy. Too many people knew about it.

Edit: I was making the observation that it takes one crewman to let the cat out of the bag. The Big -=I=- is not omnicent. When you have almost half a billion people who are moving back and forth through that gate, at some point, someone will talk. It's one of those 'too many people know something to keep it hush hush'. It's like covering up the existance of the Horus Heresy. Too many people knew about it.

Of those eight billion people, how many of them do actually know what they're doing? What if after jumping to the gate system, you just don't open the shutters anywhere but on the bridge and just hand out the orders that are necessary to fly through the gate? That means you've only got the people who are at the helm knowing anything about the existence of the gate - and not even those have to know where it leads, which is the important point.

The deception serves two purposes:

-Keep the enemy from realizing there is a quick and comparably easy way to end the Crusade: That means both the existence and the location of the gate must be kept hidden

-Keep the Sector Lords from realizing their precious crusade is actually at the other side of the galaxy: That means ultimately that the destination of the gate must be unknown; of course, keeping the existence of the gate unknown would be rather helpful there as well as it would preclude any inquiries referring to that destination

Well, from what I'm reading here in the Jericho reach fluff, there isn't any other way into the reach. So... they probably realize that somehow they're coming in from someplace else. Since the imperium is attacking on three fronts, it's not hard to draw three lines back to where they intersect to give the enemy a vague idea where they are coming from.

Millandson, I'm looking at the map, and all the Imperium holds are Fortress worlds and dead worlds on the map. There are only two agriworlds, one of which is apparently blockaided, and absolutly no forge worlds. If the map is right, we're looking at a huge line of supply back into Calixis.

Well, from what I'm reading here in the Jericho reach fluff, there isn't any other way into the reach.

So... where do the Tau come from? Did they, along with the 'nids and the chaos guys draw a number and patiently wait in line at the Warp Gate? It's more probable that the Imperium just doesn't know a route leading into the reach that isn't interdicted by its enemies. In the same way, said enemies will likely assume the Imperials just found a stable route into the Reach they don't know about. The 'nids probably just don't care, the Tau have little experience with warp technology. Chaos might indeed suspect there's something wrong if they have Tzeentch elements with a hobby of analyzing the warp currents.

So... they probably realize that somehow they're coming in from someplace else. Since the imperium is attacking on three fronts, it's not hard to draw three lines back to where they intersect to give the enemy a vague idea where they are coming from.

That assumes their enemies actually know about the other two salients of the crusade when it seems that each salient has only engaged one type of enemy. Also, that vague idea is a little like saying "oh, we know exactly where that attack came from: Asia" - only scaled up to interstellar distances. Considering the problems inherent in warp-travel, those straight arrow routes are probably idealised for the map as well, leaving anyone just plotting them back with more space than they could ever search.

Well... if the coreward/spinward parts of the map are correct, we're somewhere spinward of Sky'rrel Minoris, a colony of the Tau sept of Dal'yth, on the Sagitaurius arm of the galaxy. That would put us near the eastern fringe, but close enough to Tau space that thier less then ideal warp drives would get them there, and close to Hive Fleet Kraken. Since they don't go fully into the warp, the warp storms that keep the Imperium out might not effect them as much. Or the warp storms that kept the Imperium out are the same ones boardering Tau space in the first place?

As far as the forces of chaos... warp knows. There's a warp anomaly in the middle of the map. Maybe they came through it?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The thing is logically the statement from the nid codex makes sense ... whereas having (possibly multiple) splinter fleets of Behemoth active after Macragge really doesn't.

If we accept the statement as factual, and I do, it makes sense that we know of no massive Imperial wars against Tyranids, or troop movements to counter Tyranid attacks on the Imperium between the First and Second Tyrannic Wars. There's a major deployment against Behemoth, which destroys it. Then later when Kraken arrives across the inter-galactic space the Imperium is forced to try to form a line against it (and later Leviathan too), tyranids are that nasty they seriously challenge the Imperium's resources at a galactic (or at least trans-Segmentum scale) ... so the statement makes sense as I say. If there were splinter hive fleets out of Macragge - which I can't see any mention of in the codex - the huge numbers of Imperial troops deployed to combat Behemoth would have stopped them at that time. Y'see Tyranids are very, very, destructive - having a hive fleet actively warring on the Imperium for 80 years or so (if we're to believe this one was a survivor of Macragge) is something previous canon would imply would be enormously (Segmentum shakingly) destructive - not something that can be handwaved away with the term 'it's just a splinter fleet'. After eighty years it would be much bigger than most splinter fleets and there's no way the Imperium wouldn't have pursued and crushed it long before 815.

I even question, if we shut down our brains and accept 'okay it's a previously unknown Splinter Fleet, no biggy, la la la', that the Imperium would give a flying frick about a Tau fleet or possibly even the Chaotic enclave, while they have suddenly come up against the Great Devourer once more and the galaxy is once again found to still be at risk from them. ALL Imperial forces (and probably many more reserves rushed up) would be thrown at the Nids. The Tau can wait. Chaos can wait. Tyranids can't wait - they get stronger with each world they take, and if they get strong enough they'll eat the whole fricking galaxy.

Put simply FFG clearly just threw in nids to please the fanboys, or appease an attavistic wish to blast nids. If the game was set in 995 that wouldn't have been a major problem. However afaics it's not. It's set in 815 - making it a problem.

Canon is being constantly rewritten in 40k. This is nothing new.

GalagaGalaxian said:

That statement does not address the logicality of this change. It's a change for no good reason, that only creates problems when taken alongside all the rest of canon regarding Tyranids.

The logic is, it gives their established setting and point in time Tyranids for the players to fight. I hope they wake some Necrons up early too. Because I want to have Necrons in Deathwatch. Besides, GW seems fine with FFG's work, though GW has never really cared too much about rigid canon. Everything with GW's seal of approval is cannon, equal in their eyes, from their own stuff, to deathwatch to those crappy Goto novels. Whenever established canon conflicts, choose what works best for you.

GalagaGalaxian said:

You can do that for a tabletop, however the setting of an rpg should have a fairly high consistency as far as the scope of the rpg is concerned.

Alex

Having plowed through this thread, I am somewhat puzzled by peoples comments.

1. "It says blah blah in nid codex everyone is dead- etc" - So what.

The W40K universe is truly truly huge. There seems no reason why another force cannot come. Just because they were defeated in the past and everyone was told they were destroyed means nothing. Organisations/governments, employers, my god even your family will lie to you "for your benefit".

In this universe nothing you read is true, nothing you see is true, nothing you know is true. Information is held by an informed few, everyone else is told less then they need to know. Why, because you need people to do as they are told, not question reasoning.

2. "Someone would piece it together and chat about it at a bar" O rly

As to the billions who may have travelled to the front and returned to tell the tale. So what. People always boast, and many see conspiracy anywhere. The vast majority of citizens are trained for the job they will do till they die. They are born, educated (very limited) to the task they have been assigned, and they die. A good proportion of the empires population would probably never see sunlight, never mind the stars.

3. "OMG its a secret that people will blab about" O rly

Who they gonna tell, and why would they care? Maybe some noble may decide this is wrong! What exactly is he going to do about it? Start a campaign against it? Hmm that will last long when the Inquisition pay them a visit in the early hours.

4. "Rogue trader/chartist captain/Navigator house/Astropath blah blah blah hyperbole"

What do they care about the ins and out of what is being delivered where, what communications go where. For traders all that matters is profit. For the navigator, he is so far above stupid mortals even their ship captain, why would he even discuss it with them. Astropath - well they are blessed by the emperor.

Overall it's a secret that will be kept by fear and lack of proper information. A vast amount of the infomration transferred will be from servitor to servitor to a FYEO individual.

thats my thoughts anyway, flame away

FatPob said:

My thoughts is that it's a pointless debate anyway. Do you guys really expect realism from a setting that contains a certain amount of pulp?

Either you consider the idea too far-fetched, then don't use it. Or you don't consider it too far-fetched or even don't mind far-fetched ideas (the more outrageous the better?), in which case you'll probably draw on it.

I have never understand debating the realism of an imaginary universe too much. If you want perfect realism stop playing RPGs and start living, can't get any more realistic.

If you play in a fictional setting there will be unrealistic things included, live with it. If something gets too unrealistic for you, don't adopt it.

What's the point of debating realism extensively with a bunch of other guys (unless you do it for the enjoyment of a good debate)? Personally I think rumors are very difficult to contain. You know the saying that if three people are party to a secret it's no secret anymore?

Guess what? Even though I consider the idea far-fetched, I might include it because it's funny.

The greatest sin in role-playing isn't lack of realism, it's lack of entertainment.

(Seems that for some they amount to the same though. Not for me though.)

Alex

"12. One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation." - The Evil Overlord's List

Um, I'm sorry, but even with how grimdark the universe of 40k is, if your conspiricy can be undone by joe deckhand happening to look out a window, rule 12 here applies.

While I know the general sentiment is that the average imperial citizen is not only totally ignorant, but stupid to the point of barely having enough brainpower to breathe and eat, even brain damaged people would notice a huge light in the sky vanishing. Anyone void born, ignorant or not, is going to have a basic enough understanding to have a good idea of what it means, as their lives occasionally depend on this sort of information (See Death or Glory).

As far as the ship being shuttered: fluff crawls with shutters not working and people staring into the warp. In fact, there's a scene in, I'm not sure which Rogue Trader novel it was, but there's a scene where it's implied that launch bays are open in warp transit. Which would rather imply that they don't shutter.

As far as why there's no point to the conspiricy: Who that could feasibly be captured would know the location of the warp portal? The ship captains that know the location would probably not see the enemy until they've managed to drive onto the portals very doorstep anyway. Chaos doesn't need it, the Tau can't use it, and the tyranids don't usually take prisoners.

There's no real point in fooling the citizens of the sector (in fact it's counter productive, if, as the commissar would say, everything goes horribly ploin shaped) because they neither know, nor care, where the Guard goes, and it's unlikely that, even if the Tau/nids/chaos had agents in the Calixis sector, that information would get back to them on the other side of the galaxy in time to be of any use.

It's secrets just to make secrets, and a horrible waste of time an energy.

Surely an acceptable fudge would be to say that the Warp gate is a link between the Calixius sector in 815.M41 and the Jericho reach in 992.M41? That way you solve the Tyranid timing issue, while adding an extra load of weirdness. Not to mention another healthy dollop of tragety when you think about all the lives that could been saved on the Eastern Fringe if only those engaged in fighting Tyranids in the Jericho reach had shared their knowledge of the enemy.

As far as the ship being shuttered: fluff crawls with shutters not working and people staring into the warp. In fact, there's a scene in, I'm not sure which Rogue Trader novel it was, but there's a scene where it's implied that launch bays are open in warp transit. Which would rather imply that they don't shutter.

Fluff also crawls with planets being on the verge of being overrun by daemons. Surely that is more the mark of an interesting story than the standard condition of an imperial planet?

Chaos doesn't need it, the Tau can't use it, and the tyranids don't usually take prisoners.

The nids might be an interesting case, as it's unknown how intelligent the hivemind really is and what information it can gain from people it absorbs. The other two factions would have a good chance of ending the crusade by destroying or deactivating the gate.

There's no real point in fooling the citizens of the sector (in fact it's counter productive, if, as the commissar would say, everything goes horribly ploin shaped) because they neither know, nor care, where the Guard goes, and it's unlikely that, even if the Tau/nids/chaos had agents in the Calixis sector, that information would get back to them on the other side of the galaxy in time to be of any use.

Millandson already explained the problem: The Crusade bleeds the sectors dry. If the sector lords were to learn that their efforts bring no tangible benefits to their sector (like destroying an enemy on the verge of attacking Calixis), they might pour their political influence into stopping the crusade.

FatPob said:

Listen, if you want to just accept the handwave excuses - knock yourself out. But don't imply they are anything other than just handwaves.

My players (playing RT) would spot and exploit this secret (which in the setting is VAST news) in seconds. It doesn't work, unless you're prepared to do as you're implying and just not look too closely at the setting canon, hum real loud and keep repeating 'FFG can never make a mistake ... FFG can never make a mistake' to yourself ad infinitum.

Unless I'm reading your post wrong and you actually believe this is a secret that could feasibly be kept? In which case let me know and I'll address your handwaves ... ah sorry points.