Lightbringer said:

Another potential narrative direction? If through arrogance, poor intel or whatever, they took a Crusade force of strength x through but what they truly needed was strength X, at what point are they going to cut their losses and head back through the Gate? A defensive rather than offensive move. Worlds suddenly turned into another Cadia-variant, etc.

In all fairness, I'm not sure quite sure that the "I'm too busy" from Lord Calixis really stands up to scrutiny. Keeping your eye (or using one of your "trusted lieutenants" to do the same) seems like it would be kind of important for that Crusade in the "adjacent sector." After all, one also imagines that if nothing else it is being used as political coin for shifting relationships, the establishment of specific corporations, etc...

Kage

Cifer said:

I take your point, but it's an imperfect comparison. Inquisitors have powers that expressly exclude them from any formal regional power hierarchy. With regard to informal power cliques, yes, they have to watch their step.

But in the crusade setting, it's the other way round. Sector Lords have immense power in their sector, but no practical powers-other than status and political influence outside it.

So by suggesting that the conspiracy is even required, FFG are saying that the Imperium has to tiptoe around the sensibilities of regional Sector Lords who have no formal say in how the Imperium uses its military. Which would sort of fly in the face of the whole point of a Galactic Imperium.

I would describe my view of this whole conspiracy as "cautious optimism with reservations." Unlike some on this thread I don't think the idea of a great military conspiracy is inherently flawed, but it would be blinkered of me to ignore the sensible concerns raised.

Kage2020 said:

Yes, this interpretation seems to explain the (potentially) low initial troop levels, the fortress worlds around the warp gate, the number of tyranid encounters behind Imperial lines... It's only a thought of course, but it seems to fit.

And you're right, will the Imperium just back out? Perhaps the reason for the conspiracy is the *classic* reason for a conspiracy: to conceal incompetence?

The two options that are usually presented are either cock-up (mistake) or conspiracy. As anyone who knows who's organised a conspiracy (I sort of do that for a living) there is a third option: a cocked up conspiracy. This usually happens where someone senior makes a big error and then rushes around diverting more and more time and energy to concealing his mistake, eventually doing far more damage than just admitting it in the first place would ever have done. Watergate is a classic example. So, arguably are the Vietnam and Iraq wars.

So like you say, maybe the reason for the conspiracy is that the Crusade Warmaster knows there's been a cock up in the running of the war, and has instituted this cover up to conceal his (or his predecessor's) errors. Just a thought...

On the other hand, didn't someone say that it had been ongoing for 30 years, or am I misremembering that little ditty? If it's not misremembered, that's a whole lot of time and tends to beggar the corpse of the purportedly inefficient bureaucracy?

Kage

Yes, and the other nail in the coffin of the "Warmaster covering up his errors" theory is that on the list of ships Millandson posted the other day, it is mentioned that the Crusade flagship was lost with all hands, including the previous Warmaster. So if this is the root cause of the conspiracy, we've got two Warmasters covering up their errors.

Not totally inconceivable, of course...

Lightbringer said:

Well, I too have seen the incompetent conspiracy get (dozens of) people killed, Usually though there's no conspiracy at the outset other then one of silence. I do not find it far fetched to sugget that this probably, at least in it's initial phases, resembled innummerable other covert wars throughout history.

I suspect that the revelation of incompetence may be why the Lord General in charge vanished in the warp.

Millions of troops would have trouble subjugating a single world. Even a billion might have trouble on a hive world. To divide your forces as they have and have any prayer of being successful, you'll need billions.

As far as the paranoid Lord Hax... the first regiments they appearently shanghaied were elements of the Scintilla Guard and Heavy Infantry. Do you think that someone as paranoid as Hax wouldn't wonder why someone was stripping his PDF and might not believe a fairy tail?

Lightbringer said:

Which is probably correct. The book says "countless millions of Imperial Guardsmen", so 200-300 million troops would work. I mean, they were expecting to just sweep in and take the place back, they didn't expect Chaos to have taken hold, the Tau to have expanded in that direction, and sure as hell didn't expect a splinter fleet of the Tyranids to almost wipe out a third of their forces. Plus, all the descriptions of how many troops there were are from the beginning of the Crusade, there are no figures or estimates on the Crusade as it is now, thirty years later.

As for the conspiracy about hiding the Warp Gate (which, for Cifer, is a physical construct about 100km across), it has always been kept secret, by order of the High Lords of Terra. They wanted the Crusade to be secret so that Humanity's enemies wouldn't learn about a gate that lets them travel from one side of the galaxy to another in seconds, which is why even the Tau and Chaos forces in Jericho don't know about the Gate, they just presume the Imperium found a route through the warp storms that have surrounded the Sector (well, the Tau don't, but that's because they don't really use the Warp, but either way, they don't know about the Gate).

I don't really have much to add at this point, but I did grab one of my maps of the galaxy and etch a few lines on it to show just how far the warp-gate spans:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4062/calixisjerichowarpgate2.jpg

Quite impressive, really.

My question about the warp gate is this: Is this instant transmission (ie Through the Looking Glass) or does this still take weeks/months/years of warp travel?

It takes a few seconds (so nearly instantly), hence why the High Lords want it kept under wraps.

MILLANDSON said:

I have to say the existance of something like that would be exceedingly valuable, although, I'm not sure if this is clear: is the Jericho reach otherwise inaccessable to the Imperium (assuming there were no 'nids, Tau, chaos, etc.)? Can they get there in any other way? Because if they can, I would say at the very least the gate is useful for getting troops form Cadia to the other side of the galaxy without the whole long travel issues. I can see why the High Lords have an interest, and the absolute importance of keeping it secret. Now on how well it can be kept as a secret can be up for debate, but it is impossible to argue that the gate is useless. I also see it an amazing asset for the Tau to get a hold of, just as a means of expansion.

The problem is that the Jericho reach is still otherwise cut off by warp storms (pg 322, IIRC). (nids don't use the warp, CSM 'are' the warp, and Tau use a method that more or less ignores warp storms)

The only place you can go is Jericho reach with it, so no short cuts to Ultramar.

As far as the Tau getting their little blue hands on it: it probably wouldn't be as much of a problem as it would first look. Remember taht the Tau are vastly outnumbered by the Imperium outside of bottle necks like Jericho reach and Damocles Gulf. The reason that they're able to put up such stiff resistance here is hat the Imperium is basically forced into a kill zone in each case, where the Tau's superior weaponry comes into effect.

The real problem would be the Tau figuring out how it works and making 'more' of them.

Nids would be a much bigger problem, assuming the hive mind understands what the gate is.

Just because there isn't a conventional way into or out of the Reach presently doesn't mean there might not be in the future. Warp storms change with time. Additionally once secured they can scout the storms around the Reach and perhaps find a way in/out, how did the nids get in afterall?

And yes the Tyranids do use warp travel, or else it would take them decades or centuries to spread across just the Reach, let alone multiple sectors like Kraken, Leviathan or Behemoth.

KommissarK said:

Military wisdom dictates that you first secure the gate, then establish defensive positions and then as a third step direct your offensive capabilities towards home turf to open up a second life-line. Everything else can wait before that hasn't been established.

Alex

GalagaGalaxian said:

Well, it's not entirely true that they couldn't get in through the warp storms, it's just that the Imperium wasn't willing to risk it. The Deathwatch and Inquisition, on the other hand, did keep on risking it, hence why the Deathwatch have managed to stay in the Jericho Reach for the entire period of the Age of Shadow. Given the power of the Hive Mind, plus the fact that the Tyranids are entering the Jericho Reach through the side of the sector pointing out towards intergalactic space, chances are that the Warp Storms just haven't affected them at all.

GalagaGalaxian said:

Not according to Codex: Tyranids (pg 19). According to this, the Shadow in the Warp raises the barrier between realspace and warp space to a degree that it's nearly impossible for a ship to enter the warp, so Narvhal class bioships essentially 'fold space' to reduce the distance that must be traveled.

Basically we have two alien races that are unaffected by warp storms, and CSMs.

BaronIveagh said:

TAU do not use the warp either and Chaos just have an easier time then others but still take a risk.