BaronIveagh said:

Here's the thing, YOU CAN'T HAVE THEM WITHOUT BREAKING THE FLUFF, that's what we "fluff nazis" are trying to get accross to you people, is it really so hard to accept that you can't have female marines?(canonically, anyway)

Zamnil Blackaxe said:

Hold on, "fluff nazi". ;-)

We have to distinguish two things here wrt "breaking the fluff". Do we consider it "breaking the fluff" if:

A. Only if there is a direct contradiction to official background information.

or

B. If a GM is using "holes" in the background without directing contradiction.

An example for B would be that the the normal genetic transformation process doesn't work for females. It doesn't exclude that other genetic transformations aren't possible. Plus it's not entirely clear what happens to female test subjects with the standard transformation nor if an odd female (abhuman?) might survive it, etc.

So what do we mean by "breaking the fluff"?

Alex

The question I have to ask is, what exactly is gained by having a female space marine?

Space Marines are effectively asexual, so if your players are roleplaying in a way congruous to the setting it shouldn't really matter beyond any notions of a female marine being heretical. If you have those notions of a female marine being heretical as an element of the story, you're either setting up the "group" to become chaos marines or for another marine to kill the female marine. Part of being a member of the Deathwatch is being able to acknowledge the worthiness of the other marines.

The next thing is Space Marines are the stuff of legends, with more worlds than marines, the sight of a space marine is so incredibly rare. Marines are percieved by normal humans as the "Angels of Death" the chosen of the Emperor... who in their right mind would proceed to question the 8 foot tall amazonian cybernetic superhuman... no one. So does it bring roleplay opportunities there?

To aliens human and marines are all just a bunch of apes. I doubt the xenos could distinguish a female marine from a smaller than average male marine. Beneath all that armor and cybernetic and genetic enhancements a female marine would realistically look much like the male space marines. So how much is the individual feminine aspects of the character to be portrayed?

She will have gone through the same indoctrination and training, so her personality and thought process would be stapled and rooted in that.

My point is, while keeping a character rooted in all other aspects of the 40k universe, how would a female marine add anything when everyone acting in a realistic manner doesn't really care.

Given the setting and the nature of the narrative of a Deathwatch game, its really unimportant. It just doesn't matter, nor should it.

aka_mythos said:

As I have stated before as well... Space Marines do not have a gender. They were male before, but they aren't even that anymore.

The only other thing that I could think of is that players don't understand the physical and or psychological changes that a human being must go through to be a Space Marine. They may think that "Oh, I'll still be a female and think like a woman would" when the reality is YOU WON'T EVEN THINK LIKE A HUMAN!

You are effectively no longer human. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that when the Emperor designed Space Marines he was shooting for something FAR greater than a simple Universal Soldier look... in fact, this is what was on his mind:

They shall be my finest warriors,
these men who give of themselves to me.
Like clay I shall mould them,
and in the furnace of war forge them.
They will be of iron will and steely muscle.
In great armour shall I clad them
and with the mightiest guns will they be armed.
They will be untouched by plague or disease,
no sickness will blight them.
They will have tactics, strategies and machines
so that no foe can best them in battle.
They are my bulwark against the Terror.
They are the Defenders of Humanity.
They are my Space Marines
and they shall know no fear.

+++ The Emperor of Mankind, on the Creation of the Space Marines

Wait... did he just say that they will be untouched by disease and plague? That they will be of iron will and steely muscle? That they shall know no fear?

Yep. He did.

Doesn't sound like any normal Imperial Guardsman to me. In fact, it doesn't even sound like he's talking about a human being.

Not only does the above ring true but he also mentioned that, "They are the defenders of humanity", not that "They are the human defenders of humanity". Let's face it, you don't have to be human to defend humanity (Iron Men, despite the fact that they revolted)... and quite frankly, the Space Marines are not human.

SpawnoChaos said:

aka_mythos said:

Yep, I agree. Sorry if that last post seemed like we were somehow contradicting each other.

I just decided to try and add more emphasis to the idea.

Um: if they will be untouched by plague or disease, explain Death Guard?

That said: actually, they're still going to think like people (brainwashed and indoctrinated people, mind you) while thier brain chemistry would be somewhat altered, particularly in reguard to memory recall and circadian rythms, you're not looking at beings with a totally alien thought process, otherwise, they would not be able to function in conjunction with other Imperial Forces.

Further: Fluff (all fluff, particularly codex fluff but also novel fluff) has them thinking and reacting in a manner consistant with human responses. Space marines are filled with very much the same sort of pathos that drive regular people (unless you're in with Iron Hands, then you have more in common with the Terminator).

SpawnoChaos said:

SpawnoChaos said:

Rubbish, all the black library books make hem look pretty human male with over enflated egos.

Horus anyone? Jalously in love with is father and frustrated cause he left him alone to play with the other boys? Come on they are as human as they can be given the fact they are moslty all psychotic killers with lots of training but also have the duality of hate/love deeply rooted in them.

Uriel and is best friend running around, the shame of is friend arms and the fact they all overlooked is arm because they like him? He even goes as far as to feel for the Unfleshed ones... Come on they are chaos mutants all the way and he makes friend and feels loss when then have to die!

The space wolf brother at arm relation that leads them to becoming lone wolf when they are the last left? What about the beer indulgence of the space wolf? It's alien you will say?

lol

edit: the blood angel book, the two brother happy to reunite but then the brother scarred of is genetically modified brother (who now looks and talks like sanguinis thanks to a hidden Fabulous Bile) that he as to decide if he kills or not. Is brain pattern is typical human if you want my opinion.

Just for giggles I went back and re-read WD 98. I had forgotten that the whole thing was framed by the Emperor visiting the lab that they grow geneseed in, in 748, M41.

You know, I had forgotten it, but this was from Chapter Approved (both the original artical and the reprint)

GW disavowed Chapter Approved.

Wouldn't that mean that this is no longer canon?

I wouldn't think so because most of it is also in the 5th ed SM codex.

SomVone said:

In which we lose the entire Melanochrome organ (phase 13) and any reference to male tissues.

Several other organs are made more vague, and alll referneces to any genetic alteration at all have also been purged.

We don't "lose any mention to male tissues", as the entire process of "building" a Space Marine is in the Deathwatch rulebook, which is canon, and in the same section it states, and I quote:

"They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening"

You don't get more specific comments about it having to be male due to tissue types than that.

MILLANDSON said:

Got melanochrome?

The Melanochromic Organ? Yep, has that too (they kinda have to, since that's the one that's broken in the Salamanders and make them all dark-skinned regardless of what they were before).

Yeah, about that.....

See, it was retconned out in 5th ed Codex Space Marines.

So it was retconned that the Salamanders chapter is no longer having dark black skin due to a defective organ? Oh wait.

Just because it isn't listed doesn't mean that it intentionally no longer exists. They may have decided to only list some of the organs. The 5th ed codex doesn't present the organs in the notion of phases.

Besides, just when exactly was CA "disavowed"? I know that alot of that older stuff is not valid rules wise, but I don't think the actual fluff listed in it is really no longer canon (unless more recent material has overruled it).

Back in 06, Rik Turner (then head of White Dwarf) posted to the effect on GW UK's forums, during the mass exodus of talent and the cancellation of Chapter Approved, that anything Chapter Approved that was not posted on GW's website was no longer valid and existing information and lists would be phased out. At that time they posted a handful of articals, including creation of a space marine, on the site.

Since then, however, Games Workshop has deleted that content and replaced it with re-written information (check the new space marine info), as part of thier general move to eliminate all things Chapter Approved.

As far as can be told from Codex: Blood Angels and Codex Space: Wolves, the organs are no longer lab grown at all, and instead (from the sound of things) develope due to exposure to the geneseed, though Codex Space Wolves is slightly contradictory in this. On one page the new space wolf is wandering the wilds growing new internal organs, and two pages later he's undergone the old augmentive surgery. Codex Space Marines says they're still grown, but leaves out organs.

So: where does that leave us? In a big frikkin muddle. Both chapter codecies bare out that there are no longer phases of implantation, the Blood Angels grow the whole shebang in about a year, space wolves it's less clear. It's also not clear if it's some, or all, or none, or varies by chapter if the organs are grown and then implanted or just grow because of the gene seed.

At this point just trying to make sense out of where the codex writers are going with this makes my head hurt, but I'll say there's no reason that one can't have female space marines, however, they way these thigns are written now, there's also no reason that I can't planet some geneseed in a field, pour some water and mirical grow on it, and have Ultramarines pop up out of the ground.

I wish GW's writers would at least compare notes.

BaronIveagh said:

All chapters have secrety involving the SM creation, many of them have derived from the Emperor's initial creation method. Some involve near ritiualistic process, surgery and etc. All of which are different from a chapter to another.

It is said that many chapter will keep a very tight secret on their SM creation because they could border heretical method (if they only knew what the Emperor did).

The way GW presents it's (fictional) information goes very well in line with their universe, everything is shrouded with secrety, incomplete information, disinformation, etc.

crisaron said:

Which is to say "They can't keep thier act together and have been hireing sh*tty writers but we don't want to say it that way because it will have the fan boys cooking off like rounds in a burning Leman Russ'.

Which is a sentiment I wholly agree with.

However, the side effect of the 'It's All True/Everything is a Lie" approach is a fractured fanbase which leads to things like this (FSM) thread, where everyone argues what is canon, and it pushes people away from the setting.

BaronIveagh said:

You take forums too seriously!

It's a fiction world and if you look at other RPG I doubt we all play the different worlds the same way, we don't even play the same exact setup within the same gaming group, we each have a variance over the same universe.

I believe all those thread have interesting material for my world since lots of info can be found in them but where it stops.

Don't let the fluff lawyer scare you off from the GW universes just ignore them! I know in 40k I have to put up with lots of weirdos but in the end I was able to find a few nice players.

Yeah yeah, we're wierdos for liking the setting the way it is written.

I can't speak for the others, but I know that when I play a game that uses the 40K setting, I want to play a game that uses the 40K setting.

Blood Pact said:

I never said you should not m8te, just said he should not be put off by the over aggressive/ defensive attitude of the fluff/rule lawyers. I know lots of player who quit WarHammer and 40k table tops because of the rule lawyering, the never ending arguments that lead nowhere.

I like to listen to the fluff discussions, but I always see the typical inquisitorial Arena where the various faction try to "force" their interpreted truth on others.

It's so Imperial stile that even the fan boyz get fanatical!

In the "old days" it was fine to leave things as vague stories or descriptions, but whats happend is that over time different writers have independently attempted to embelish those details, creating these contradictions. Its no near as bad as Starwars and Star Trek, expanded universe novels but the difference is just a matter of time.

It has been pretty well established that the marine creation method has varied. GW can make blanket statements about how a Blood Angel is created but it doesn't cover all the bases, for example just because it take a year being entombed for organs to fully grow, there is nothing to say the amount of preparations that lead upto it.

Nothing is retconned till its directly contradicted and omission is not contradiction, since omission can be a result of censorship or editing to fit an aloted space.The discussion on the validity of certain chapters backgrounds due to GW changing how it wanted to physically present information is silly. Their website has changed to this "bite" sized description and articles that are very thin compared to past publications and like before, editing these down doesn't contradict what preceeded it, its just a reformating.

All the founding chapters have their fluff published in Index Astartes I, II, III, and IV. So while "Rik Turner" may have been able to say rules published in the magazine his authority doesn't extend to the other publications carrying the same information. All the fluff on Salamanders still stands. Even still its really a rather moot point anyways since the details in question do appear to be published in the Deathwatch book, meaning whether you think it should or shouldn't be it is a part of the setting of this game.

I'm not even sure what this discussion is about anymore.

My thought process for fluff is this:

1. All fluff is valid until it is directly and unequivocally invalidate or contradicted by newer and more detailed fluff; such as the primarchs changing names and the spelling of names over time; or when GW established the sizes of space marine chapters invalidated fluff where thousands of marines appear to be wiped out and are mentioned as only a company.

2. If new fluff does not directly invalidate old fluff, both are true regardless of the stretch to the imagination needed to connect the two; such as Space Marines have 19 engineered organs but Raven Guard only have 16 that work, obviously Raven Guard are still space marines despite not strictly fitting the genetic definition. Or how Jaghatai Khan originally went missing while fighting eldar, became being captured in Cammoragh chasing the Dark Eldar; interepretation being the eldar being refered to previously were the Dark Eldar and he went missing cause he followed them through a warp portal.

3. Fluff can only be invalidated by fluff; until fluff is written to the contrary there are no female space marines since the process is keyed to male hormones; or until a new list of 19 organs is stated, sans Melanochromic Organ, that organ can always be assumed present even if not listed.

I will kindly point out guys, that all your macho, bravado about playing Space Marines with no women will suffer a crushing defeat as soon as a few smart and curious female gamers start looking around all the new 40k RPG books, or actually *gasp* be up to date on canon to realize all she needs to do is make up an inquisitor from DH(Asscension) and play the Inquisitor that the Kill-Team is here to serve. Not only would she be a bad ass in and of herself, but she will get to boss around all you meat heads as well. I see fun times on the horizon!!! lol

GlamdringRST said:

Thats been pointed out many times. Deathwatch is about being a Space Marine, since there are no female space mairnes those who want are left out. Since the rules are geared toward the cohesion of the squad and hoardes against that squad an Inquisitor is left out. Yes, you can cross between books but then you aren't playing the game you ascribe to be. Its upto the individual gaming group, but it has the potential to be a disruptive element. It will require the group to think out which rules can impact the Inquisitor and which won't, and vice versa. So it isn't so clear cut.

It will also drastically limit the narrative potential. If the Inquisitor is present, all the missions are for the Inquisitor and will tend to take a destroy now or destroy later mentality to all that is xenos; since that is what the Ordo Xenos inquisitors are like. An Ordo Xenos Inquisitor who is radical enough to want to study Xenos wouldn't be granted access to the highly guarded resource that the Deathwatch represent; a puritanical Inquisitor would leave study of Xenos to the Mechanicum and be more inclined to destroy remenant of xenos presence. Missions that might otherwise go against the Inquisitor's will but serves the mandates of the Mechanicum won't be as easily viable since the Inquisitor is walking around. And just because you might play an Inquisitor, if you're too much of a pain, the marines may not feel it worthwhile to warn you of landmines or throw themselves on grenades for you. Also games like the intro game that was made available, even in power armor a normal human can't survive a drop pod, so that is another element that has to overlooked or dealt with.

I'm not saying don't and I'm not sayin you can't. I'm just saying its not as easy as you imply. There are considerations.

I think it comes off like someone wanting to play football with a tennis racket.