Some of the Emperor's Children look like females... is that good enough? Then again some have more breasts than Colonel Sanders.

ak-73 said:

There cannot be female space marines.

There could of course be secret lab grown female warriors who have DNA and implants influenced or based of space marine creation technologies. They can even have power armour, astartes bolters and a structure similar to space marine chapters.

But they would not be space marines, they would be heretical biologis crimes against the emperor, the imperium andthe adepta mechanicus and thus ready to be burned upon discovery.

So have you space amazons. Enjoy them. But in the setting they are a heresy.

aka_mythos said:

Well that would be good enough if it weren't for the fact they're traitor marines that are actually mutated.

However if they come up with make your own chapter, and perhaps you can make a Chaos equivalent of Deathwatch. With that people can have their female marines, in form of hermaphrodite marines of the Emperor's Children and the like.

aka_mythos said:

Officially there aren't. It has never been ruled out that there isn't somewhere an unofficial chapter.

Let me repeat again: why throw the door shut in the face of gaming rounds that want female marines? Isn't it good enough that there aren't female marines? Personally I am against retconning the girls into it but I see much sense in keeping an open door for individual rounds.

And in that light @Peacekeeper_b: according to my reading of the setting the possibility that there have been successful marine conversions in the Imperium but a conservative arm keeps things under wraps, while a more progressive arm has been able to lobby at least a covert testing suite . An officially sanctioned but nopn-public eperimental program.

If I was GW, I would keep that door open for female gamers.

Let me repeat it again: I am opposed to making female space marines part of the Canon. But I see manifold wisdom in keeping the door open just a little bit.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Except you are now using absence of proof as proof that there might be "an unofficial chapter", which is a falicy.

Have you seen any written evidence to suggest/prove that there are unofficial female chapters? If you can show us some actual evidence for their existence, then we might start agreeing with you. Until then, the proof is overwhelmingly in favour of there being no female space marines, official or not.

MILLANDSON said:

I fear not. I am using absence of proof that there cannot be female space marines somewhere snuck into the setting. If there is no such evidence the probability of such has to be considered lower than 1. If the probability is lower than one, let's say epsilon, it means that the probability of the complement become 1- epsilon > 0. Which means that there is a chance, irrespective of how remote for female space marines to be out there.

As I have said, it opens the door and I'm fine with that.

Are you not?

MILLANDSON said:

While I don't see any evidence for the existence of God and I don't believe in his existence, I have seen no evidence either that can rule out the existence of God, so a chance that he exists and my guess is wrong remains.

...I don't have to prove anything. What would that be good for, MILLANDSON? Previously I have asked people here what they are debating for.

I know what I am debating for: to allow people who want female marines to be able to do so without directly contradicting the setting.

May I ask you what your aim in this debate then is? To try to prove that there cannot be female space marines, neither in the RPG nor the tabletop, wihout contradicting the setting? Why would you try to prove that? See my quoting myself above.

Alex

To resume the last 18 something pages so far:

You can do it, there are some openers not to break too much the game Canon, but many don't like the idea at all and need to fight against it.

So to those who wish it it there are solution spread trough all the thread, for those against there is nothing different to you.

Am I missing anything?

p.s. Oh yeah lot's a people talk but no one listens also.

crisaron said:

Since when is that going to be change?

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Debate isn't for the impatient.

Alex

Ok I just came upon this thread. I even read the first two pages of posts and some of the links.

Has anyone pointed out that part of the process of making a Spacemarine invloves gene-seed. The Emperor made the Primarchs and then made the legions after the Primarchs. All male.

No females because to make a Spacemarine you need gene-seed. The gene-seed is based on the Primarch. The primarch is male. As a male all the gene-seed based on the Primarch's wouild be XY and not XX. No females because the XY gene-seed would be rejected from their XX bodies.

. . . or thats at least what the Adeptus Biologis think :-)

BoneDaddy said:

That's about the state of debate, yes.

This forum needs a FAQ, I think.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Just those that seek meaning, apparently.

Kage

MILLANDSON said:

Well, how 'unoffical' do you want? There was the Fighting Tigers of Veda, who supposedly had members of both genders. I think most of us have seen Doc Thunders marginally awsome CSM's, the Black Widows (his fluff for them was that they were a creation of Fabius Bile. To me that doesn't seem all that unlikely) I'm sure there have been a few others, but those are hte ones that come to mind off the top of my head.

One thing that I have been mulling over in my head: I vaguely recall a woman in a Blood Angels novel getting a transfusion of soem sort from a Space Marine: she does not die (and IIRC lives many times the 'normal' lifespan). Since BA geneseed is more or less given in a similar manner, doesn't that throw a wrench into the whole 'women die when exposed ot geneseed' argument? Admittedly, she did not turn fully into a space marine either, but it raises the question if she might not have if she'd have undergone the entire procedure,

The Blood Ange's catalyse the process with the blood of their Apothecaries, it doesn't do the whole job on its own. While the Space Wolves lase the food and drink given to its neophytes with some sort of chemical before tossing them out in to the wild to fend for themselves. Imperial Fists use pain through nerve induction, or something like it.

The other Chapters I don't recall.

From a recent review of Deathwatch:

"And now to address the elephant in the room: there are only male Space Marines in the Warhammer 40K universe. Yes, you can play a Sister of Battle but you would need to advance them from Dark Heresy to Ascension and the Astartes are going to be better at battle, hands down. Yes, you can house rule a Female Chapter just as I can house rule a galactic alliance between the Imperium of Man and the Eldar Craftworlds for technology and troops, no one says you can’t, but both will likely draw the same stares from purists. My wife and my Daughter are both playing in my Space Marine game, my wife is playing a Tactical Marine and my daughter is playing an Assault Marine, and the gender issue has been a non issue thus far. No one is going to try and seduce a Space Marine; I don’t even think that they feel human desire, so a lot of the issues with cross gender role playing goes away. Personally I think people are making a bigger deal of it than it needs to be, but that’s my opinion and since I am not a woman and thus not directly affected by this issue it’s not worth much. All I know is that I have players who don’t care about the issue, giggle when a they lay Kraken rounds into a Tau on full auto and roll 50+ damage on the roll, and high five the other players when an objective is completed."


Can we this now, please?

BYE

HBMC: who wrote that review? (and, frankly, it sounds like they're more interested in big loot and big kills then role play)

My Review:

Real Man: Is glad that there are no namby pamby 'breast plates' in this game.

Real Roleplayer: Bemoans the lack of female space marines and presence of stat buffs from back ground choices.

Loony: goes streaking past the Inquisitor.

Munchkin: likes that **** near EVERYTHING gives you +10 to something.

Real Man: prefers Space Wolves

Real Roleplayer: prefers Lamentors/Raven Guard/custom chapter

Loony: Plays as an eldar harlequin. "Why so serious?"

Munchkin: Plays as a Custodes/Grey Knight

Real Man: wields a power axe

Real Roleplayer:wields a bolter

Loony: tries to overload their plasma gun in the middle of a firefight

Munchkin: calls in an orbital lance strike.

Real Man: fights for honor

Real Roleplayer: fights for the Emperor

Loony: fights for the stereo remote

Munchkin: fights to one day take the golden throne for himself.

Real Man: worships the Emperor

Real Roleplayer: worships the Emperor and their Primarch

Loony: worships nurglings

Munchkin: is worshiped by Khorne.

BaronIveagh said:

Since when should a "real" roleplayer (as a player, not a gm), complain about the setting, or rather, try to alter the setting to their own desire? That sounds a bit more like a munchkin to me.

While I recognize that GK are innapropriate in a Deathwatch setting, I do think it's a bit harsh to call us who like them munchkins.

Of course, I don't mind getting the option to play Black Templar.

If anything, btw, a "real" roleplayer would be wise enough to not judge other players on the basis of selected chapter (except for those choices that go against the setting in an egregious sense).

KommissarK said:

Sorry, that was what they did. The munchkin wanted to play a Custodes, and when I shot that down was advised by the rules lawyer to try for a GK. The 'real roleplayer' wanted to play as a member of the FSM chapter her TT army was made of, but the real man and the rules lawyer both complained about it.

And that's what they chose. Or tried to in the loony's case. (in the end she was assigned a Rainbow Warrior. Right now she's haming it up with a stupendous lisp.)

BaronIveagh said:

I was most inclined to agree with the "real man" guy's choices but I wouldn't have complained if there was a female space marine. As a GM a woman would have to do quite some convincing (no, not what you may think) to let me allow it though.

Alex

BaronIveagh said:

Cripes! Sounds like you've got the gaming group from hell there Baron.

Makes me grateful for being of a like mind with my 40k players.

H.B.M.C. said:

Not sure how one guy's opinion in a review has any resolving power or weight in this or any other debate HBMC.

Adam France said:

QFT

Example of my party at work:

The players managed to seize the Light of Terra during the Lure of the Expanse adventure arc. Rather then fight the crew, they occupied what remains of the bridge after they meltaguned the captain (seems that worm in the first adventure made a mark on them) and sent teams of thier private army along the hull in void suits with melta charges and systematicaly depressurized the ship. They then waited eight hours and sent in the troops.

Since they had built thier fortune largly on large scale space craft salvage, including coming up with a very clever way to salvage the Righteous Path , the debate was very long about if it was salvageable. (It was but they could not get a writ of claim, and so had turn the site over to the Navy, in exchange for a hefty military salvage contract.)

I'm actually worried for the RT game, atm: I had been reigning in the loony on some things (She's playing a genetor magos who's ships medicae) however, I fear that into the storm is going to crank her up to 11, since she's been playing the character somewhere between Doctor Feelgood and Doctor Conners. I have a feeling that thier next adventure may be rated 'H' for tenticles, sexual situations, and body horror. Parental Discretion is Advised.

Surprisingly they actually work well as a team. Against me, the GM.

H.M.B.C clearly derives substantiation from that review, as indicated in other posts. It is, seemingly from their perspective, an objective review. The stance and reply is therefore not surprising.

Kage

BaronIveagh said:

What a foolish proposition for a group of players - unless you let them.

Alex