Darq said:

Well, there goes a Designer Diary by Ross Watson, Merrett's not particularly great efforts at PR, and a lot of defensive posting on this forum.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Will the Space Wolves be dropping by for Tea?

Well, they can. Apparently. And have a quiet drink down the pub because, well, they're just as human as you and I. Well, other than being uber and buff and all.

Kage

What I find funny is Kage here did not comment on the obvious jokes at the end of my last post. I thought it was fairly funny.

Sorry. To be honest I'm not actually paying that much attention to this thread.

Kage

[ ADMIN: Refrain from personal attacks.]

Someone remind me how it's us, the 'fluff nazis' who are the assholes here?

And not folks like Talos and Baron?

Darq said:

CS Goto allowed an adult to become a space marine. Why not whine over that?

afjk87 said:

It doesn't seem to me that the participants in here don't know what they are arguing for. And by that I mean that it's unclear what their argument is supposed to achieve.

- Does anyone want to convince FFG to publish material that allows for female space marines? That's very likely not to happen.

- Does anyone want to argue against someone else having female marines as a house rule? That seems to be even more pointless because it's someone's personal business. And there is no accounting for taste.

- Does anyone want to argue why given the current setting there might be loopholes to snuck female marines somehow in there? That should be possible but it's just a house rule too.

- Does anyone want to make the case that based on some previous edition there may be female SMs? Regardless of whether true or not, the current official background is that there are no female space marines, thus it's a house rule and therefore shouldn't be anyone else's business.

If there is sth else you're trying to argue for, feel free to add to the list. Unless you're just talking without knowing where you want to go to.

Alex

I just love the almost obsessive way that people behave towards this subject. It seems that there is a grouping on one hand who are just inches away from screaming male chauvinist pigs at anyone who tries to deny them their precious female marine, on the other side we have the setting purists who are convinced that it stops being warhammer the moment you don't follow the setting to the letter or go forbid invent something of your own and that anything related to this will cause the grim dark to implode.

Now admittedly I belong more to the "no girly marines" faction, but at the end of the day let the gaming group reach consensus and then play around in that sandbox. That said I never allow girls to play boys and boys to play girls in my games, sorry, it just breaks my immersion.

UncleArkie said:

I love it when I see people posting here about the insecurities of people who don't allow cross-gender roleplay. To me, the insecurity seems to be all on their side, so as to prove to themselves and the world of their own supposedly avantgarde, secure mind-set.

I would find it very odd if in a Hollywood movie an actress would get cast for a male role or vice versa. Nor do I like cross-dresser comedies or the like.

The only time I have no problem with it with a 'Hosenrolle' in opera where a young woman takes on the part of a young boy or the like. In that case it takes on an artistic form of expression, namely to convey the innocence and femininity of that young boy.

But I'm digressing.

Alex

afjk87 said:

afjk87 said:

GS Goto takes huge liberties with his works, see G.S. Goto's multilaser. So it's not surprising anymore that he'd put an adult through the Space Marine creation process, because to him all marines carry multilasers.

Talos Von Dickenstein said:

Dude reduce the flame to 'low simmer' and cut back to decaf, ok?

Blood Pact: you know how someone pointed out the thing about glass houses earlier? (Granted, Talos just exceeded even my tolerance)

An aside: Goto isn't the only one to ever make an adult a space marine. This has been done in: Space Marine, Damnation Crusade, Codex: Space Wolves, is implied in on of the Ephrael Stern stories since the Inquisitor is a Black Templar (buh?), and Grey Knights, in particular would have to be older then usual by default, since psykers initially manifest at puberty, and, IIRC, almost all Grey Knights are psykers to some degree.

So, it's not really clear how old you can be before you cannot be a space marine, though it looks around 20ish.

As far as why I argue: other then the point already mentioned: basically it's that the idea that it's no longer warhammer 40k if space marines aren't all male really irritates me and the way that people react if someone brings up the subject pisses me off even more. I really hate it when people tell me that, in a setting where the warp generally throws rules out the window, something is impossible. My players have long ago learned that saying 'that's impossible' is like saying "the GM is going to have a dozen of them in a drop pod fall out of the sky on us."

Adults have become marines, there is just an absurdly high mortality rate during the conversion. Read up on the Space Wolves, something like 2/3's or 3/4's of Russ' original men died during conversion due to old age. The Dark Angels weren't' so keen on the mortality rate, so some of the older members of the knightly orders became "half" marines, if you will. They only received some augmentation but is extended life and allowed them to wearpower armor and keep up with the other space marines.

BaronIveagh said:

It's still 40K but not the Canon interpretation of it. Where's the problem? Some people try to stick as closely as possible to Canon and look down on other interpretations as lesser. That has to be borne. I have no interest in sticking to Canon myself. I am interested in creating an interpretation of the 40K universe that I like best.

Personally I think that those who prefer to stick to the official setting as closely as possible tend to lack a bit imagination. Otoh, the closer to Canon, the more you have a feeling of authenticity.

BaronIveagh said:

Two points:

a) It would be helpful if the debate wouldn't (d)evolve from debating the original issue itself to trying defend hurt feelings (Not directed at you personally though.)

b) Impossible? What does mean - impossible? Impossable in what manner? It's impossable to have female space marines and stick closely to Canon ? Yes, that's self-evident since the rulebook explicitly states that there the transformation process only works for males. Beyond that nothing is impossible and why shouldn't it be? If you prefer an interpretation of the 40K universe in which there are female marines, no problem. It's not impossible at all, all you need is enough players to like your itnerpretation and you have a round and a setting to play. So, not impossible at all.

There are no female space marines but there are enough loopholes to snuck some in - as long as no Canon book states 'There are no female space marines, there have never ever been anywhere by a single individual or organization or race even half-way successful attempts at creating female space marines.'

I am not aware of such a statement, therefore loopholes exist. Except that exploiting those loopholes isn't directly Canon, just not in contradiction with it.

Alex

afjk87 said:

1) Because no one is asking about making adult Space Marines

2) Because this thread is about making Female Space Marines

ak-73 said:

Would the Deathwatch book stating "Those receiving the zygotes to become Space Marines must be male" apply? Because that sounds like a very definite statement that there can be no female Space Marines to me. I'm not sure how you can loophole your way around that one

Off topic: I was fairly certain that the guardsman in question was actually 16 in Dawn of War and he ended up mutated. He had crazy hands.

Manyfist said:

Because some fiction is fiction even if set in that setting. But statements in the rule books, the main source (primary source) state they are males.

MILLANDSON said:

I have posted this several times before but I'll repeat it again: you could for example assume that females can be transplanted these prgans but then what? They die? Do all females die? Do they die with all transplanations? Is there a way to modify the process so that it partially works on females? Unless all of that is explicitly excluded through the setting , there is a loophole because it can be assumed that the statement you are quoting only refers to official and legitimate space marine chapters.

I don't see how this statement excludes the existence of a lone (mad? you decide ) scientist to try to make the process work of females with mixed success. I don't even see how this statement excludes that somewhere in the Imperium experimentation has continued, possibly even met success but results being hold back and suppressed by traditonalists (codename fluff nazis? you decide ),

What this for sure means that while sticking to the rules of this game no female marine can be created. What we've been debating here goes wider than that question though - whether it's possible to create female space marines (whether for the RPG or the tabletop) without directly contradicing the Canon setting . That seems to make a difference to people.

Alex

UncleArkie said:

A little too late, I'm afraid. The thread that prompted me to join these boards was one of these kind, argueing about female Space Marines. What specifically drove me was the fact that someone decided to accuse the game (but no specific person) of being chauvanist, with a few comments on it being racist thrown in for the hell of it.

Now this is flat out untrue, of course. 40K really layers on the grimdark when talking about the world of the Imperium, but it doesn't really talk about any systematic or even endemic hatred toward the female sex. At worse, all we've seen is that women can have a harder time excelling in fields that are traditionally male dominated just like in real life (such as mentioned in the case of Commissar Balshin from the Gaunt's Ghosts novels), but even that doesn't stop them from being the CO's of Guard regiments, assassins, governors, or Inquisitors. Racism has a somewhat better claim, but not really. The alien races have long since moved past being characatures of real life ethnicities, and the cosmetic alterations in some Space Marine Chapters are really weak examples. Plus it's never ever been said that everyone is white, or of any other race, in fact it's avoided entirely, all people have to go on is assumptions (which are like assholes). The frequency of the caucasian appearance in models and art can be quite easily explained too, by the fact that it's been proven that artists generally have an easier time with subjects of their own race, rather than other races.

BaronIveagh said:

I'm afraid your post referencing Godwin's Law didn't impress me as to your class.

This whole thread just makes me want to cry, just saying...

Hesporos said:

You undergoing female SM transformation?

ak-73 said:

The zygotes are stated to only work with male tissue types, and that they do not work/bind with the female anatomy, so yes, I can imagine them all dying from organ rejection.

At the moment, AK, no offence intended, but it seems you are really, really grasping for straws to say that there are/can be female Space Marines.

Also, generally, the onus of providing proof is on the person making the original assertion. As such, following your own example, can you find any explicit reference or quote that states that there are/can be female Space Marines? I know I can't.

MILLANDSON said:

None taken. I don't share your sentiment about straw-grasping however. I'm sure there has been extensive testing with negative results. The universe is a large place however and it cannot be safely ruled out by any means that there shouldn't be someone out there who has succeeded where batallions of Imperium scientists have failed.

It's not so much that I have a personal stake in this; in my 40K interpretation there isn't a female space marine (or is there? hehehe). However since there has been public demand for female space marines I have been putting my wits to good use to prvodide those gamers a possible explanation without directly conflicting the Canon.

On second thought, I suppose exploiting loopholes is a form of straw-grasping, if one wants to see it that way. I consider it a legitimate reaction who want to have house rule female space marines without contradicting the Canon directly.

Why throw the door into the face of such gamers? That would be rude.

MILLANDSON said:

You have mistaken that onus of providing proof. Someone who makes a "can" statement does not incure any burden of proof. If I say there can be a god, you have to prove to me that there cannot be if you think there isn't. Conversely, if I say there can be a universe without a god attached to it, someone thinking otherwise would have to prove that.

Just a general clarification, not aimed at this particular issue.

Alex