I have said this once and i will say it again... Space Marines are not female.
If you want to follow lore, then make them Sisters of Battle or something else
If you do not care about lore, and i do not blame you, then go ahead and make female space marines.
Why is there a huge thread to discuss this?
Just a thought.
Or you could us the cursed founding loophole, which allows for all sorts of freaky things. (Transgender would be the least of the many strange mutations to come out of that one, and it's expressly stated that it's unknown how many such chapters were produced, and what all of their mutations might be.)
@ Kanwulen Well, the six pages part is correct, I grant you that. But again, you failed your reading test.
True, i do not think of that as lore so much cause those chapters were closely monitored and mostly can not recruit, or they went traitor. Like the fire hawks went on to be the Legion of the Damned. However i digress, this is a very legitimate option, just not one i like so much. However i am a lore nazi and will not let female marines in my group. Do what ya like, but please stop the trolling and ranting all! Thanks.
Cheers
BaronIveagh said:
Hmm... the problem is the radical extreme to which we're altering the tissues. There are a thousand little things that have to be tweaked as well (acid proof teeth, for example) If we went down the aventue of genetic re-engineering, why implant organs at all? If you have a virus that advanced that this is possible, why not just design it so that the body grows these new organs naturally?
The other problem is chronic rejection. Even if you can get the subject past the initial stages of implantation, which usually kill the recipient somewhere between instantly and a week or so afterward, over time the body rejects the new tissue anyway, filling the blood vessels with muscle fibers in an attempt to cut off the alien organs. This is one o the reasons that even in the rare successful xenotransplant, they usually have to have the organ replaced again after a fairly brief time.
I'm not sure where you're getting that these are genetically cultivated for implantation into the subject. If anything they'd be carrying genetic information for the Space Marine that grew the progenoid, not the neophyte being implanted.
If the two marines were closely related, this would be advantageous, but for random people, it might actually make the procedure even harder.
In all honesty, you're looking at tens of thousands of failed implants for each successful implantation. But lets reduce that: lets say that three fail for each success (far greater success then fluff permits). A space marine only produces two progenoids. This means that no space marine chapter would ever be up to strength after their initial engagement in combat, and most would die out in a few years, because they would never be able to produce sufficent geneseed to make up lost numbers.
A primarch is closer to 100% engineered but this was obviously considered too inefficient to do in totality. So they clone the organs, but as you say organ rejection would be a problem. The way I'd think of it, is that in creating a marine they're trying to do something very risky, and mitigating that risk maybe a matter of approaching the problem from both sides and meeting in the middle.
I think the simplest explanation for organ implantation as opposed to a full genetic rewrite is that because a marine is already alive and mostly developed as a human. With the balancing act of the organs altering body chemistry and boosting resisitances and strength allowing a more natural growth of these organs may leave the individuals body chemistry too drastically out of balance. If the organs are all separately engineered, grown, and implanted it is easier to ensure that those organs are more properly balanced to give the marine the best odds of survival.
Somewhere on earth there are new geneseed produced but its always been kept vague, but that wasn't what I was talking about. The original article about space marine organs mentions the fact that the organs are modified for the recipient, that fine tuning is all I was going on about. The organs come from other marines, being a combination of the marine that grew them and the primarch. Any fine tuning would eliminate or modify the marine portion and not the primarch portion, leaving a new marine with something that could be a melding of the the new marine, primach, and some tinge of his predecessor.
The progenoid is one of the last implants a marine receives. I think by the point they reach the progenoid the apothecaries have a higher degree of certainty of implant success.The fluff says that their is storage and cultivation on Earth so there is obviously some capability to replace. The progenoid produces geneseeds, it is the geneseeds that are crucial in salvaging the progenoid from a fallen marine. The geneseeds are what grow into the new organs for future implants. The progenoid grow over a 5 and 10 year cycle and can be extracted there after, replaced by new ones so that the geneseeds they contain can be cultivated. So if a marine managed to live 100 years, he'd have atleast provided new organs for at least 10 marines. I think once you got beyond the first implants failure rates would drop off since those who survived would be sufficiently similar to accept the implants.
aka_mythos said:
A primarch is closer to 100% engineered but this was obviously considered too inefficient to do in totality. So they clone the organs, but as you say organ rejection would be a problem. The way I'd think of it, is that in creating a marine they're trying to do something very risky, and mitigating that risk maybe a matter of approaching the problem from both sides and meeting in the middle.
I think the simplest explanation for organ implantation as opposed to a full genetic rewrite is that because a marine is already alive and mostly developed as a human. With the balancing act of the organs altering body chemistry and boosting resisitances and strength allowing a more natural growth of these organs may leave the individuals body chemistry too drastically out of balance. If the organs are all separately engineered, grown, and implanted it is easier to ensure that those organs are more properly balanced to give the marine the best odds of survival.
Somewhere on earth there are new geneseed produced but its always been kept vague, but that wasn't what I was talking about. The original article about space marine organs mentions the fact that the organs are modified for the recipient, that fine tuning is all I was going on about. The organs come from other marines, being a combination of the marine that grew them and the primarch. Any fine tuning would eliminate or modify the marine portion and not the primarch portion, leaving a new marine with something that could be a melding of the the new marine, primach, and some tinge of his predecessor.
The progenoid is one of the last implants a marine receives. I think by the point they reach the progenoid the apothecaries have a higher degree of certainty of implant success.The fluff says that their is storage and cultivation on Earth so there is obviously some capability to replace. The progenoid produces geneseeds, it is the geneseeds that are crucial in salvaging the progenoid from a fallen marine. The geneseeds are what grow into the new organs for future implants. The progenoid grow over a 5 and 10 year cycle and can be extracted there after, replaced by new ones so that the geneseeds they contain can be cultivated. So if a marine managed to live 100 years, he'd have atleast provided new organs for at least 10 marines.
Hmm.... maybe I'm misreading it, but the progenoids are implanted before the black carapace. They *seem* to only ever get two of them, and either attrition is high among newly inducted brothers (very possible) during their first few years, or at least one progenoid remains in the marine after it matures, since apothicaries have to be ready to remove a progenoid in the field. Chapters tithe 5% of there gene seed to the AdMech for genetic monitoring and to help found new chapters.
ok first of all nothing wrong with females playing marines and if you want to be true to fluff there is no cannon female astartes however if you dont mind expanding your mind and bending fluff a little ....... the way i would do it if i was gong to for a game would be to point out that there were origionally 20 legions of legio astartes of which only 18 had named primarch as 2 were expunged from imperial records thus allowing gamers to come up with their own first founding legions so who were these missing primarchs???????? could one of them have been female?........
that being said if you want no game altering cannon that proves it impossible, the only point female astartes could have been created was when the god emporor was still just the emporor while he was on terra creating the primarchs. the reason that females cannot be astartes is base largely on there genetic difrences from men(something im not going to go into detail about) because of this the dna taken from the primarch is rejected (male dna being put into female bodies if it was ever acepted then the astartes dna would alter the base dna and basicaly turn the human woman into a MALE space marine) though that aside if one of the lost primarch was a woman (and not belokor and sigmar as is stated in the one printing of the full 20 primarch and there legions) there would be the ability to create female astartes and you have what u want but then follow it forward several milenia after the horus heresy to the age of apostacy when the high lords of terra and the eclesiarchy were brought together by (his name escapes me, they guy who created the brides of the emporor) he would have had the ability to turn his brides of the emporor into spacemarines and would most definetly have been victoriouse in his plans to control the entire imperium and as his plan was to remove the god emporor from the golden throne so he would be worshiped, your game would differ in one of 2 MAJOR!!!!! ways
1) the god emporor dies and acends to godhood and defeats the powers of chaos in the imeterium and thus bringing about the seacond golden age of man with him leading them as a true god from the warp, very soon the imperium would be at peace and no need for astartes to the extent they are now and the inquisition would be out of a job, ergo no rogue trader no dark heresy and no deathwatch because it would be quite boring "hey so what we doing today" "nothing everythings cool"
2) the god emporor of mankind dies the astronomican is lost and warp travel becomes imposible in a few short years the imperium is broken down by there enemys and a few hold outs remain (such as the ultramar system) but for all intents and purposes your games would be limited to were you could get in a lifetime in real space trave (witch aint far) and the imperium would be dead and gone, there for your inquisitorial signets, your rogue trader licenses and your chapeter honour would matter for nought. and your actualy playing a game of survival as something else.
the only way aound all of this is to NOT justify it in any way and know your just breaking cannon and fluff, if your happy with this cool its your game. have fun and enjoy.
Right to start with ill say this simply and in small words so there can be no missunderstanding
"there no female space marines and there can be no female space marines"
this aside i do have one question for all the people that wanna have female space marines
WHY!! is this just so you can have boobs in your deathwatch game, you know deathwatch is not made for you to get your jollys off right, if you wanna do that go bang a death cult assasin in dark heresy (there quite bendy i hear) and leave the real work of the emporor to the real men that dont need there heroes flowery and smelling of flowers!!!!!!!!!!
oh and beffor you start to try and flame me(and ruin the post) i belive it only fair to warn you, i will not be checking this post again iv said my pice.
GregorFiredrake said:
Right to start with ill say this simply and in small words so there can be no missunderstanding
"there no female space marines and there can be no female space marines"
this aside i do have one question for all the people that wanna have female space marines
WHY!! is this just so you can have boobs in your deathwatch game, you know deathwatch is not made for you to get your jollys off right, if you wanna do that go bang a death cult assasin in dark heresy (there quite bendy i hear) and leave the real work of the emporor to the real men that dont need there heroes flowery and smelling of flowers!!!!!!!!!!
oh and beffor you start to try and flame me(and ruin the post) i belive it only fair to warn you, i will not be checking this post again iv said my pice.
lol
Space Bunny of the year 41,338 with central page spread.
Space Babes in power armor the magazine for your power tools.
the movie flick of the summer : My mom was a space marine and my dad a Rogue trader.
Thank you Gregor! I really can not understand these threads arguing the sex of the players...
Honestly every time i have seen this thread, the female one and there have been at least 3 i have counted, i honestly laugh. This is ridiculous guys, you do not need to argue lore. Do what you want and be done with it. Who cares what anyone here thinks? It is your world. you choose. It is a RPG, do what ever you feel like. This topic has been beaten to a pulp. 3x
GregorFiredrake said:
WHY!! is this just so you can have boobs in your deathwatch game, you know deathwatch is not made for you to get your jollys off right, if you wanna do that go bang a death cult assasin in dark heresy (there quite bendy i hear) and leave the real work of the emporor to the real men that dont need there heroes flowery and smelling of flowers!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry, but.. for some reason this vaguely like a something out of Monty Python and the Holy Grail... (and on a side note, my players tend to do their banging in RT. It's unbecomming of the Inquisition to get laid)
As far as 'why' the reason is simple: player choice. As a long time GM/DM/ST I can do pretty much what I want (Rule 0). The players, on the other hand, tend to have a limited set of choices avalible to them. Part of the illusion of free will I allow them is the ability to choose a gender. (And, amusingly enough, there have been occasion that the men and women of my gaming group have swapped, with the girls playing guys and the guys girls. It was a short expariment, but a good time was had by all) I've generally found that most players, however, will choose thier own gender, typically. Unfortunetly in my game group, this leaves half the players out in the cold as far as gender selection goes in DW.
The Larch..... The Larch....
Darq said:
The Larch..... The Larch....
Um, what do larches have to do with anything?
GregorFiredrake said:
Right to start with ill say this simply and in small words so there can be no missunderstanding
"there no female space marines and there can be no female space marines"
this aside i do have one question for all the people that wanna have female space marines
WHY!! is this just so you can have boobs in your deathwatch game, you know deathwatch is not made for you to get your jollys off right, if you wanna do that go bang a death cult assasin in dark heresy (there quite bendy i hear) and leave the real work of the emporor to the real men that dont need there heroes flowery and smelling of flowers!!!!!!!!!!
oh and beffor you start to try and flame me(and ruin the post) i belive it only fair to warn you, i will not be checking this post again iv said my pice.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Getting to choose what you play is nice.
But complaints about not being able to play female Space Marines are no more sensible than complaints about being unable to play a Tau Striking Scorpion, or an Eldar Inquisitor.
BaronIveagh said:
Darq said:
The Larch..... The Larch....
Um, what do larches have to do with anything?
Sorry its a Monty Python reference
Please everyone let this die away and be forgotten PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the darkest of times let be silent for many moments
no more posts on this subject thank you all for understand
Blood Pact said:
Getting to choose what you play is nice.
But complaints about not being able to play female Space Marines are no more sensible than complaints about being unable to play a Tau Striking Scorpion, or an Eldar Inquisitor.
Um, you do know that in fluff they imply that some radical inqusitors do have eldar acolytes, right?
To further burn your brain:
"Chief Librarian Astropath IlIiyan Nastase
Illiyan was born to a human mother on the world of Badab following the expulsion of the tyrant there in 912 of the current millennium. His father was an unknown Eldar mercenary. The youngster was gene-tested at birth in accord with the law and subsequently taken into Imperial custody. He was reared in the government compound by the Imperial Mission which took over the running of Badab after the war.
Along with other potential psychics he undertook the journey to Earth in 924 where further tests led to the eventual soul-binding in 925. From that point Nastase was recruited into the Administratum as an Astropath. He attained the ranks of Secundus, Prefect and eventually rose to hold Consulship for four years, helping to run Terra's advisory Senate to the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Following this he undertook four years service with the fleet, a further two years with the Dark Angels Marines and was appointed as chief of the Macragge interstellar communications link under the jurisdiction of the Ultra-Marines (965). Nastase is now 76 rears old (current year 987) but, thanks to his parentage, shows few signs of age." - WD 97
As far as tau striking scorpions, can't really say, I never really considered the idea.
BaronIveagh said:
Blood Pact said:
Getting to choose what you play is nice.
But complaints about not being able to play female Space Marines are no more sensible than complaints about being unable to play a Tau Striking Scorpion, or an Eldar Inquisitor.
Um, you do know that in fluff they imply that some radical inqusitors do have eldar acolytes, right?
To further burn your brain:
"Chief Librarian Astropath IlIiyan Nastase
Illiyan was born to a human mother on the world of Badab following the expulsion of the tyrant there in 912 of the current millennium. His father was an unknown Eldar mercenary. The youngster was gene-tested at birth in accord with the law and subsequently taken into Imperial custody. He was reared in the government compound by the Imperial Mission which took over the running of Badab after the war.
Along with other potential psychics he undertook the journey to Earth in 924 where further tests led to the eventual soul-binding in 925. From that point Nastase was recruited into the Administratum as an Astropath. He attained the ranks of Secundus, Prefect and eventually rose to hold Consulship for four years, helping to run Terra's advisory Senate to the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Following this he undertook four years service with the fleet, a further two years with the Dark Angels Marines and was appointed as chief of the Macragge interstellar communications link under the jurisdiction of the Ultra-Marines (965). Nastase is now 76 rears old (current year 987) but, thanks to his parentage, shows few signs of age." - WD 97
As far as tau striking scorpions, can't really say, I never really considered the idea.
Note that you say acolyte, and not inquisitor. There is a bit of a difference. And you can't seriously consider the idea of a Tau striking scorpion are you? How about an Ork striking scorpion, or a Necron striking scorpion? Are those worth considering?
Choices are great. Sometimes, the setting makes the choice for you. If you dislike this choice, you can alter the setting, or accept the setting and go with it. If you alter the setting, that's fine. Just recognize you are altering the setting to fit your own needs. Not try to justify that it may actually be true for the actual setting.
Personally, I still don't see why people can be so against just sticking to the given material for the sake of fitting with the fiction. If you choose to bend it as you see fit, you leave alot of possibly bad things open to occurring (players getting bent out of shape when things assumed to be true change).
EDIT: also, that eldar hybrid thing is a bit out as per Xenology, good job with the old fluff. Whats even funnier is in WD 98 was the bit saying that only males can be space marines as per the zygotes thing.
BaronIveagh said:
Blood Pact said:
Getting to choose what you play is nice.
But complaints about not being able to play female Space Marines are no more sensible than complaints about being unable to play a Tau Striking Scorpion, or an Eldar Inquisitor.
Um, you do know that in fluff they imply that some radical inqusitors do have eldar acolytes, right?
To further burn your brain:
"Chief Librarian Astropath IlIiyan Nastase
Illiyan was born to a human mother on the world of Badab following the expulsion of the tyrant there in 912 of the current millennium. His father was an unknown Eldar mercenary. The youngster was gene-tested at birth in accord with the law and subsequently taken into Imperial custody. He was reared in the government compound by the Imperial Mission which took over the running of Badab after the war.
Along with other potential psychics he undertook the journey to Earth in 924 where further tests led to the eventual soul-binding in 925. From that point Nastase was recruited into the Administratum as an Astropath. He attained the ranks of Secundus, Prefect and eventually rose to hold Consulship for four years, helping to run Terra's advisory Senate to the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Following this he undertook four years service with the fleet, a further two years with the Dark Angels Marines and was appointed as chief of the Macragge interstellar communications link under the jurisdiction of the Ultra-Marines (965). Nastase is now 76 rears old (current year 987) but, thanks to his parentage, shows few signs of age." - WD 97
As far as tau striking scorpions, can't really say, I never really considered the idea.
Some inquisitors, such as Lady Jena Orechiel, have been reported to make alliances with the eldar, or even to travel with them as members of her retinue, but that is not to say that a member of the eldar could become an inquisitor. Anyone who suggested it, would be laughed at, shot, atomised, have their entire family burned at the stake, and then have have all records of their existance expunged.
Not every source of setting material is a trusted sources, just because you can find a quote that says something utterly obsurd, does not make it the case. Especially when it is from a source as old as White Dwarf 97. A time period when Call of Cthulhu adventures still appeared in the magazine.
The setting has developed hugely since that time.
Fluff lawyers to the rescue!
Arguying about the validity of fluff is cool! Keep it up boyz!
One post a day!
Keeps the thread from going away!
KommissarK said:
Note that you say acolyte, and not inquisitor. There is a bit of a difference. And you can't seriously consider the idea of a Tau striking scorpion are you? How about an Ork striking scorpion, or a Necron striking scorpion? Are those worth considering?
Choices are great. Sometimes, the setting makes the choice for you. If you dislike this choice, you can alter the setting, or accept the setting and go with it. If you alter the setting, that's fine. Just recognize you are altering the setting to fit your own needs. Not try to justify that it may actually be true for the actual setting.
Personally, I still don't see why people can be so against just sticking to the given material for the sake of fitting with the fiction. If you choose to bend it as you see fit, you leave alot of possibly bad things open to occurring (players getting bent out of shape when things assumed to be true change).
EDIT: also, that eldar hybrid thing is a bit out as per Xenology, good job with the old fluff. Whats even funnier is in WD 98 was the bit saying that only males can be space marines as per the zygotes thing.
Most people make a point 'not' to mention Xenology and fluff in the same sentence, what with it's Necron Inquisitors and spraying orks with round up.
Hey I know! Leave the Gender spot blank and ignore it completly - "Space Marine, 1"
Darq said:
Hey I know! Leave the Gender spot blank and ignore it completly - "Space Marine, 1"
That's an interesting idea, actually. I'll run it past the players.
There's a very significant difference between a Necron pretending to be an Inquisitor, and one that actually is an inquisitor. As others have already clarified, an Eldar may become an acolyte, but they'll never get their rossette and become a full fledged member of the Inquisition.
You know something... I just had an epiphany.
Given that Space Marines don't exactly get involved in relationships, etc. and it doesn't really matter that they were once "male" since all of their enhancements have changed them to something more than human...
... could you really even say that they are male anymore?
At this point I think that I'd have to invoke the German "das" instead of "der" for them (for those that are unfamiliar, things with der are considered masculine while things with das are considered neuter / AKA not male or female as far as the gender of the noun).
That would solve this problem once and for all... Space Marines are not male or female... they are neither... in fact, I would consider them as anatomically impaired as a Ken doll.
As Kage would say, "YMMV".
