A bit about me:
I've considered myself a competitive card player for the past 4 years and a Call of Cthulhu LCG (CoC) player the last year and a half. For me, purchasing full play sets of every good CoC card is a must. When designing decks I do so in a competitive nature at least 80% or more of the time. By this I mean that I rarely ever go over 50 cards, always run full play sets of the good cards, and stride to streamline my deck for maximum efficiency as much as possible. In terms of card player psych profiles I am most definitely a Spike.

By history I'm accustom to a number (3 or more) of large tournaments (40+ people) during the year, so it's been difficult at times to adjust to this game, being that kind of player. As many of you reading this are surely aware, to this point, CoC has not been a competitive game. What I mean by this is that, despite good sales, CoC has not (to my knowledge) hosted a tournament with over 25 people in attendance. In fact, the tournament with arguably the most prestige (and the best prize), the CoC World Championship at Gen Con, typically draws only a dozen or so participants (this year we had 16).

I know at this point, people are ready to give me a list of reasons why CoC LCG players aren't competitive and why FFG wont support a competitive environment. I think it's important to go through some of these as they are valid points. In fact, it makes perfect sense to me why CoC to this point hasn't been competitive. However, that doesn't mean we as players or FFG as a business should just accept this.

Reasons I've heard the CoC LCG doesn't have competitive play:

1) LCGs are purchased primarily by casual gamers – I understand and agree with this statement. However, if I'm a business person I'd acknowledge this, but then try my best to bring in additional players by improving the competitive scene as well (ways to do this listed below). After all, doesn't it make sense to expand and grow this game, by trying to include a greater audience?

2) Competitive players play CCGs over LCGs – Again I agree this is the case right now. Some competitive players would rather play CCGs because the card pool is larger. CCGs are also collectable versus LCGs which have set cards. Finally, and most importantly, CCGs like Magic and Yugioh are well marketed, target a larger audiences, have a longer history, etc. Because they are so large and already supported by large companies they can also offer more incentives to play and more competition for competitive gamers.

3) FFG is a casual business that hasn't historically supported competitive play – I agree, this is part of why I'm writing this. In my opinion, failing to support competitive play is ignoring a whole potential market of customers.

4) If LCGs are selling well now, why mess with anything? – Answer. To continue growing the game by bringing in new players. Just because it's selling now doesn't mean it can't sell better.

5) It's too expensive to support a competitive play environment – I disagree with this point. It doesn't have to be (see suggestions below).

6) There isn't a demand for competitive play – I am a competitive player and I'd like to see more. My play group is as well. It only makes sense that there are more like us out there.

At this time I want to clarify that there is absolutely nothing wrong that to this point CoC has been primarily non-competitive. At the end of the day, I love the property and mechanics and I'm glad the game is selling and continuing to be made. Again, however, I reiterate my point above that just because things are going good now, doesn't mean more can't be done to expand and grow the game while pleasing competitive players.

To FFG's Credit:
Despite everything mentioned above, I want to thank FFG for the effort it has put into CoC and the other LCGs. In some ways they have already begun helping the competitive environment. What I'm trying to accomplish in this report is to ask for more developments, while also openly discussing CoC from a competitive standpoint, as a competitive customer.

Some positive steps FFG has made:

1) FFG has tried to run some larger tournaments – Each year FFG runs the Cthulhu World Championship at Gen Con. Also in April of 2010 FFG hosted a LCG “Mega” event at their headquarters. FFG also attempted to grow the competitive scene by creating LCG Regionals that asked players to apply and host across the country. Finally, this October 22nd-24th FFG is scheduled to host another Cthulhu Event at their headquarters called Arkham Nights.

Unfortunately, as mentioned above, historically the CoC World Championships has had minimal attendance. This years CoC Worlds event broke the old record with 16 people.

As for the “Mega Event” held in April, myself and two other locals traveled over 12 hours from Ohio this year to attend the singles and team events scheduled there. In large part we did this hoping to compete with other players and prepare for worlds. To our dismay, we were the only CoC players to attend the “Mega Event” which ended up being a mega let down.

Now on to the LCG Regionals. At first, we considered applying for a regional event, but end up declining because of the cost to do so. While our store owner was excited at first to host it, he soon changed his mind when he heard of the $200.00 price tag required to buy a regional kit. He realized wisely, he'd never re-coup his loses. I wonder how many other vendors felt the same way and also declined?

Looking ahead, I'd like to attend Arkham Nights this October, but right now I wont. I'm afraid of a repeat of the Mega Event where my friends and I take days off work, travel 12+ hours, spend hundreds of dollars, and wind up playing each other.

I think FFG is doing the right thing trying to run these tournaments, but they going about it all wrong. They really need to find new ways to raise attendance. Hosting tournament after tournament again and again only to receive limited to no attendance should be a red light that the marketing for these events is not working properly. As I stated above, I don't think this is an indication that players aren't interested. So what Is it then? I'll try to explain why I think these events are failing and what can be done below.

2) Another thing FFG did right which should be applauded is changing to the full play set (20x3). This was a great change and one that was overwhelming welcome. I could see this change greatly reducing the gap between casual and competitive players as everyone gets a full play set from here on out. Hopefully more players will be less intimidated at tournaments since their card pool is now truly the same as every one else.

Having said that, FFG desperately needs to begin reprinting old asylum packs in the new play set format asap. Christian Peterson responded in the CoC forum saying it will be done, but gave no time frame as to when we can expect it. I've heard of many players who would gladly buy many of the early asylum packs, but they simply can't find them because they are sold out. This discourages CoC gamers who want to play competitively but didn't get the earlier packs. It's also bad from a business perspective as you aren't filling consumer demand.

3) Winning Worlds and getting to design a character card in your image that's playable in the game. This was also the prize in UFS a former card game of FFG. It was described there as “The Coolest Prize in Gaming”. As a competitive player I full heartedly agree. The chance to be immortalized in a game you enjoy is VERY worth playing for.

Unfortunately, there is only one tournament a year where this prize can be won and that's Worlds at Gen Con. Expanding this awesome prize to 3 or 4 tournaments would likely increase attendance at larger tournaments and excite the competitive play community. I for example would be much more likely to attend Arkham Nights this October if this prize was awarded. The cost to do this is also minimal to none for FFG. They design artwork and abilities for cards anyway, so collaborating a couple times a year with champions wouldn't cost them any more.

Potential Solutions:

1) Proper incentives – The number one reason people wont do something or choose not to is because of lack of incentives. Currently the incentives to play in big CoC events simply aren't there. As a company I'd be doing everything possible to find out why players aren't attending these events.

Lets start by looking at the Mega Event in October that drew three CoC players. (These findings can likely be applied to all Regionals as well since the setting and prizes are pretty much the same) What went wrong there? Well for one there was an entrance fee of $20.00 to play in the events. Behaviorally this would be considered a “punishment” and is actually the opposite of an incentive. Charging players to play at your own headquarters was not a good move and I’m sure that turned at least a few potential players away.

Prizes at the Mega Event were decent, uncut sheets, pins, wooden tokens, a domain set, CoC play mats, and a 70 dollar gift certificate to FFG (only redeemable at Gen Con), and a bye at worlds. The gift certificate and bye at worlds was a good touch, but not enough. If you didn't plan to attend worlds you might as well subtract that prize from the pool. Why couldn't it be redeemed online or at the event? After all, the event was in FFG HQ. As for the pins, tokens, domain set, and uncut sheets, it was not worth the 20.00 entrance fee, much less the cost of travel. As a result, it should be no surprise that only 3 people showed up for this event.

So what are some ideas for incentives? I know FFG doesn't like spending money on prizes, but as a business you have to spend money to make money. Certificates were a good start, but the cost of the kits these came in totally off set it. The limitation of only allowing the certificates to be used at Gencon was also a poor decision. If FFG choose to sponsor 3-4 big events a year (Gen Con and 2 at their Headquarters, etc) I believe they should be willing to offer at least $150-200 of FFG certificates or product per an event. The cost would be around 600-800 per a year, a minimal cost with huge potential benefits. Worthwhile incentives would likely draw additional players and potentially grow the game. If not certificates then how about prizes like other FFG board games, LCGs, or Cthulhu related products (like those new domains)? Cross promoting products as prizes might also encourage players to play other FFG games they hadn't considered before.

As mentioned above, allowing for 3-4 opportunities to win a character cards would also be a good incentive. Another idea, instead of offering rough art prints or uncut sheets, what about framing some of these art pieces for the top places to make them look more professional? Other incentives – Books and literature by HP Lovecraft. Plaques that include Lovecraft quotes and a place to put a CoC card for top 4. Lovecraft tee-shirts and hats (advertising for the game as well).

2) Another problem that needs fixing is Advertising. This goes back to spending money to make it. Not enough people know about CoC. What about sending out more posters with product so store owners can hang it up in their stores. Another idea I can't imagine would be very expensive is to add a small flier in asylum packs that explains the upcoming big CoC events and the potential prizes. I'm sure hundreds of CoC players don't even know about Worlds or that you can win a card of yourself if you win. The incentives above are only effective if people know about them. I believe CoC is cross promoted in the Arkham Horror games, but i'm not sure. If not it should be. If it is, they should also include information about the CoC events and prizes as well. Perhaps including a few LCG cards in new Arkham Horror games would also be a good draw or coupons for the CoC LCG.

3) Finally, the last potential solution involves packaging and reprinting the older LCG cards. Tracking down all those old Asylum series can be a nightmare and a big turn off to new players wanting to compete. A good solution might be to make jumbo boxes available that include entire asylum pack series in the new format.

To FFG:
Failing to properly support competitive gaming for your LCGs is costing you money and potential players. Adding to your competitive base of players makes financial sense, as they typically buy all product released, not just some of it.

Again, this is not meant to be a rant, but rather one players view of why things aren't working in competitive play for CoC and what might be done to help fix it. I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. What would it take to make you travel to the upcoming Arkham Nights event? Do you have any theories on how to grow competitive play for CoC? How would you like to see CoC improved?

Thanks,

Paul

These are very good and strong suggestions. While I myself am about as non-competitive as they come, I agree that creating incentives for more competitive players to get involved would be a clever marketing decision. I did not and could not go to GenCon this year, but 16 players is disappointing, and I'm sure that larger turnouts at the big events would be an unconscious morale booster for all players.

As a specific comment, I really like the idea of H.P. Lovecraft quote plaques. After all, the game is based on early 20th century literature. A little tasteful pretension in the prizes could hardly hurt. (Yes, I'm a Timmy. But I like to think I have a bit of Johnny sprinkled in as well.)

I enjoy competitive tournaments very much. I even don't mind when "carpet baggers" come in from out of town with highly tuned armies to win tournaments and take the prizes.

However I can say that in my local region, such things kill competitive play. When games start getting valuable prizes, then the out of towners show up and the locals get disheartened. Soon they stop playing the game.

Even with Call of Cthulhu, just the appearance of Magah Birds and 70 Steps created a problem. Either we had to ban them locally or we would have lost almost all of our players.

I played DreamBlade when it came out. I still think it was one of the best miniatures games made. They threw cash prizes at the game. Very quickly there were no more casual players and only competitive players. And the competitive players only wanted the best figures, so never bought boosters, only bought figs in the secondary market. It took about 6 months for this excellent game to die because the prizes were too good.

I agree with the idea of upping the competitive level of play, advertising, making it appealing. But there are many bad decisions that can be made along the way. Sometimes caution is the smartest route.

I think aesthetic prizes would work better than cash prizes.

Sometimes the aesthetic prizes might have cash value (eBay, etc.), which is just as bad. Have to be careful about these things...

I think one of the problems is the game centers on Literature from a guy who wrote 60+ years ago, and doesn't have a huge fan base. Its gonna be an uphill battle. There, I said it. Warhammer:Invasion and even Lord of the Rings have current things to supplement the game, jog the memory, and make someone stop, and become interested, like video games.

You wanna promote the game, say its cool, like Silent Hill .

Hey Paul!

I believe I agree with most of what you said (i started out by trying to respond to each point one by one, and turns out theres not enough space nor time, so I'm summing up), and guess I'm here to offer my 2 cents.

And to any FFG staff member or devotee reading this I'll apologize in advance. This is not meant to offend anyone. I'm just trying to be honest.

1. CoC LCG isn't failing. Somehow it is actually on a slight increase apparently. Very slight, but slight none the less.
2. Why it isn't more successful:

- CoC had little advertising when it started, and even then it's tournaments were larger back then. Then '08 happened. Be it the format change, the game breaking cards and decks, and Worlds, the significant in tournament support. You name something bad and it pretty much happened in '08.

- Tournament support was at an all time low. They cut off promos, tournament kits were non-profitable, and the only and I mean ONLY incentive (for competitive players like us) was the prize to design a card with your likeness on it. Hell, for the 08 and 09 tournaments regional winners didn't even get a round bye at worlds. Things have improved since last year, but no one knew what the prizes even were until they were handed out.

- No ranking system. Way back when there was one, it was extremely poor and was abused by anyone that had an account and eventually they meant nothing so they axed it. For whatever reason most competitive players NEED to see this or else they think this is basically just a board game and move on.

- Lack of good structure for actual tournaments. Best of 1, loose time limits, unknowledgeable judges, non-exsistant tournament floor rules, lack luster faq/erratta... the list goes on. Hell even the pre-tournaments annoucements (if there were any at all) were terrible. I know thats kind of harsh, but outside of Mr. Nice Guy Games the best pre-tournament announcement was when Steve Horvath mentioned a few things and kicked off the world tournament last year. At least people were paying attention to him. Now of course I haven't been to every CoC tournament over the years, but from what I've seen (primarily at worlds) this is what happens.

- Lack of online content. Wether it be articles, a card database, events, whatever. There just isn't enough to catch the eye of a competitve players.

- And the PRIME reason why CoC is where it is at is because FFG is happy with it. They got it to the point where its doing just well enough to be profitable. From there point of view, they have tons of other games and new games to focus on so why put more effort into a game that is self-sustaining?

3. Suggestions on how to change things to attract more competitive players (some of these may be reptitive):

- Advertising. The first step. It doesn't have to be much nor expensive, but certainly it needs to be more than what it is now. I hear cross promotions are good.

- Make your big names bigger. You have players like Jim, graham, crhis, kellen, myself, etc.. that do well time and time again and several forum community members that could be used to attract new players. For example, for this mega event, get some of those big names (and even creators/designers of the game) to come out to wherever and do signings or gunslinging. Or perhaps do some web videos of the game's biggest names (players, creators, designers) playing the game your trying to advertise. Something. There are so many people willing to help to make this game better and they can only do so much by themselves.

- Pre-announce prizes!!!!!!! Not finding out what the prizes for ANY level tournament before hand is just aweful. Its one thing if you add stuff to it later. Thats fine. But seeing nothing until after the finals are completed is terrible!!!! Really, to people not in the know, it looks like FFG isn't giving out any prizes at all for tournaments. I'm talking months in advance here people. This is probably the absolute, number 1, suggestion that needs to be implemented immediately.

- Promos. These need to come back. Alternate art reprints of erratta'd cards are a good place to start. This adds collectability to the game that people enjoy while not forcing casual players to break their backs to get a super powerful chase promo.

- Better tournament structure. I'm sorry, but no competitive player likes to sit down for a game and when it comes to time at the end of a a round they immediately have to stop play without even finishing a resolution of a story and determine a winner. Thats not even fun from a casual perspective. The whole thing needs fixed from top ot bottom and needs to be presented in a much more grand manner.

- Better card balance. This has been a major problem since The Rip Off and Rainbow decks. In my eyes, so far, it hasn't gotten much better and I believe worlds this year has proven that. If I'm not mistaken 90% of this isn't Jame's fault, but he sure is left with a mess to clean up.

- Better AP packs. Lets face it, we're only getting 20 new cards a pack. Now I understand not all of them are going to be amazing, but speaking mostly of Murmur's of Evil and packs like it where it contained less than a handful possibly playable cards while the rest might as well just collect dust in a shoe box. This needs to stop. <25% playable cards is not accetpable for a tournament player (yugioh players aside, I don't know how intelligent people can stand that game).

- Profitable regional kits. Seems simple. and perhaps should be free. Byes, Gencon badges, flights to gencon... get people to your big tournaments. One of the major problems is that most of the world can't justify spending the money to go to gencon and this can help allievate that. Of course this would be a bit more complicated and expensive than some of my previous suggestions, but at least make them profitable to some extent.

- Demos. Only way CoC is gaining new players right now is through word of mouth, a few people playing in some stores, conventions and cthulhu fans checking it out. Demo kits should be sent out (for free) to any store that will accept FFG mail. This is of course also an expensive one, but hey it should help.

Thats just to name a few things.

I enjoy this game for its game system, its ultimate prize, and the people I get to play it with. Everything else could probably use a good re-working before we'll see this game take off in a competitive manner. Till then casual players will keep the game alive while the few competitive guys attempt to fill the tournamet seats around the globe.

PS. I'm all for casual. I love just sitting down and playing a few games with some good friends. But, I would like more friends too.

Good thoughts guys!

And glad to have you back on the board Tom, even if it is temporary.

I am mixed about all of this.

As a competitive player during the heyday of the ccg I only have two suggestions:

1. Allow the black border version of white border reprints in any and all tournaments as long as the deck is in opaque sleeves.

2. Do a Legends type reprint of all cards that were only included x1 in previous APS's to help new, or in this case, returning players catch up.

At this point in my life I would rather play laid back and not super competative with CoC functioning as the nexus of a social event, even though I always like to have 1-2 competative decks on hand. I would like the have playsets of everything, if for nothing else, to play mad scientist or mad cultist and put together some wanky stuff with under used or non-used cards (except for Winlocks Dig, I will never play with that card). Departing from my old ways I will not likly attempt to reconstitute my olde Yog-thulhu Destructo-mill tech again because it creates an NFE for others, but might consider it if the stars were right for a big tourney, but only in an attempt to p0wn the flavor of moment deck...

Tokhuah said:

This was actually allowed at Worlds. I was quite surprised.

Chevee

OH SNAP!

Well then, add a potential 2 players from the West coast who would do a competative tournament should one ever make it's way out here...

Excellent post Paul, and great thread. I find myself disagreeing much though. I don't see comparisons to CCG - a whole pre-history is missing from the equation here. Though more cultists is better at tournaments, I believe this was a great tournament season. As Ultimate Frisbee got more popular, the jocks joined in and squeezed me and my less athletic friends out. More participants is not always better. And more competitive is not the same as more popular. It's a competitive game, on a scale don't ask me. But I like 16 participants. It's manageable. The switch to LCG is not the same change as the fact that the card pool diminished. The percentage of playable cards was high last AP. The quantity of junky cards has plumetted, thankfully. The spikes, johnnys, and timmys of the world are getting their cards. These, by the way, are perfectly valid card gamer terms, but reek heavily of magic, a big no no for many cultists. To me, they demonstrate one is a gamer moreso than he is a cultist. CCG over LCG is unquantifiable. More people fish, than do spelunk. Means nothing. It's a small new world, LCG. CCG is the tyrant that came before and is vast by comparison.

I just viewed the FFG gencon videos. And they were great, absolutely terrific, the best any of us could hope for that were not there. Didn't look like they were taking that casually. We just finally have the transition in the rear view mirror, and we're clamoring for a switch back? Sounds illogical. This is how the game survived, and hopefully will thrive. I always wanted more cards, the hugest voice on the boards for them. I lament the twenty cards per time. But it is apparently why we are still here. If it's because this is an FFG pet game, perhaps their boutique game, well that'll do. That or the highway.

Now my geocentric attitude sadly is revealed. How many cultists have travelled to the midwest to play call of cthulhu recently. How many of you with no ties to the midwest have ever been. Wish I'd been at gencon, or was at an Arkham Nights or Mega Event or such. The draw to travel to rival NYC for regionals was astronomically higher to me. Closer, more to do, and more ties. Flooding the midwest with games does the majority of this game's players little good (see Shtalek, west coast, anywhere). More champion cards is fine and all, but from Toledo, Geary, and Eerie makes no sense.

And I liked my prizes. Framing and flying champs around and non-game prizes makes no sense to me either. Spare me a gift certificate and make a trophy or plaque that is tourney specific.

I do agree that kits could be free or cheaper for a store that proves itself worthy. I agree that charging admission at the flagship is utterly silly.

Professor, you and I were carpet baggers at NYC, and were vital participants. We killed nothing. We brought the "regional" to regionals. No apology there. Not like I was any different than local players. But we agree basically. Good point regarding correctly choosing support.

Ephraim nails it when he writes it's Cthulhu Mythos after all. Eclectic yes, hard to market yes, best genre hands down yes. Just hard to push.

The champ reminds us of the troubles of 2008. We're lucky to be here. His comments on ranking and tournament structure, and pre-announced prizes are to me the best points of the thread. But advertising is always expensive. Recruiting our stars is a great idea (see Marius). So write those articles, you very smart players. The rest of us make up the voice here. Collectible anythings would be great, I agree. James Hata's large task at card balance is a key point.

Allowing black borders at Worlds, great, but no one knew. Reprints remain a touchy subject, but are rare for most any periodical.

PaulBittner84 said:

So, improving CoC would mean eliminating the last traces of its origin as a competitve (collectible) game.

Being myself a TO, I got to desagree with the thing you spoted here concerning the need of competitive play !

- 1. This thread is all about the american context of the game, which is not the same we use to encounter in Europe.

The gaming community here is friendly too and the tournament (Stahleck, French Regionals and Nationals) were fine as we had no more than 20 players each times. All the players were able to face people they did'nt play against yet.

Giving a competitive dimensions on this game would surely leads to a lake of interest for the casual players, which are the main target of the developers. Trying to create an alternative support-winning competitive dimension would surely brings new annoyances we don't need yet, as the game is in it first steps. Remember that the card pool is actually tiny and don't offer a large scale of possibility in deckbuilding. LCG is too young to handle such things.

2 - Some of us also tryed to reach a competitive level (just check the french board and you'll see the top 4 decks, which are mainly similar to the one presented for the gencon), and the meta is slowly evolving, but this don't need a competitive environment. The Leagueplay was fun and inviting... The only problem being the cost of the supports for the League : If we did'nt have a hand from the french editor, we would'nt have organize an official National event, as we had to pay almost 200 boxes for printed lithos and others stuffs we should have produced a lot cheaper ! The only interest were new domains and playmat ...

So, competition may not be the solution, as the actual tournament do fit me and my organisation. But FFG's interest on the game is mostly du to the niche situation of CoC ... which may not evolve in the near future, except if we all try to show the game to everyone ^^, but the casuals players won't ask for tournaments ... just new cards.

If you consider competition as a necessary eviol, well, I almost agree with Tom's point (everyone of them !! Except Promos, as we now are in a LCG environment, no need to have discrimation between players who have it and those who do'nt have it !)

We, european people, woul love to have the possibilty to win a flight to GENCON, with a bye for the biggest event of the year!

PRODIGEE said:

But consider the if the Promos were either alternate art cards, or, even better, corrected versions of the "errata" cards. Then there is no play advantage to having the promos, simply a bragging point.

This would be relatively inexpensive for FFG, and would enhance the prize system.

Thank you all for your replies and opinions.

I fear after reading your responses, I may not have made my objectives clear.

Again, I am not trying to say the game is dying or can't exist as is. (On the contray from what I hear the game is actually selling very well) My goal in starting this dialogue was to merely provide a 'state of the game' thread from a competitive CoC player's viewpoint and to include constructive ideas about how to grow tournaments and competitive play.

Unfortunately, I think many of your responses focused on my idea to provide greater support and incentives for major tournaments with prizes and only tuned in on that. Really the prizes are only a small part of what I am talking about. The most important thing I want to convey is that to this point tournament attendence at "major events" has been very lackluster. This is a point I think many of us agree on and would like to see change.

We all have difference ideas on what kind of attendence we feel is "ok" at a tournament. For me I'd like to have at least three tournments a year, in the USA, with over 25 players each. Ideally two of these would include the CoC World Event and one at FFG head quarters in MN. I don't feel that is an unreasonable goal to set or ask for from FFG. Obviously to this point the LCG has not come close to reaching that goal. Therefore the focus should be on what will bring players out to tournaments in greater numbers. After all, the greater the attendence the more competitive a tournament is.

Again, I'm not suggesting HUGE money prizes. That's not why any of us play now. And I agree that adding big money prizes would bring in a new type of player that we don't necessarily want. Furthermore, it's unrealistic for FFG to do so. However, there is a middle ground here that can be reached. I'm obviously not playing for money or I'd play another game. However, I believe FFG can and should do more to increase tournament size and attendence and I dont think it's unreasonable or greedy to ask that they provide more support and advertising. Obviously, as I wrote about in my post above, the incentives to attend these events simply aren't there for many people.

So, with all that said and out of the way. Can we agree that larger tournaments and attendance at events like the Mega LCG event, Worlds, and Arkham Nights would be good for the game of CoC? If so, lets work together to try to come up with good solutions to make that a reality. If enough of us want it, FFG may just listen. Here's to hoping.

Well, we did have Worlds, the FFG event, and Regionals (4 of them? Not sure). So there were like 6 major tournaments this past year.

Increasing interest in these tournaments would be nice, though, which takes us to the idea of bribing people to attend via prizes.

I kind of disagree with the OP. I don't think it's necessarily failing, it's just that CoC is not a really popular game, even though it's my favorite card game and one of my favorites games overall. FFG opened up the country to holding regional tournaments and few bothered. I don't think there was a regional in the western half of the US.

I don't think it's FFGs lack of trying. They've released two league kits with nice prizes. I bought one of them in hopes of getting a leauge going, and although everyone thought the league stuff looked sweet, they weren't interested enough to play regularly. Just for whatever reason the game hasn't taken off like Game of Thrones or Warhammer: Invasion, which everyone here seems to play.

FFG stuck by the game enough to relaunch it after it failed as a CCG. I think The Spainiard really likes the game and I appreciate that it's still here. Hopefully, more people will discover it in the coming year. Otherwise the mediocre tournout will continue. If it does become more popular/profitable then I imagine the prizes may get bigger.

I think you and I are pretty much on the same page here Paul. We're not so much interested in having the game become more cut throat, but simply wish attendance across the board to rise.

I personally would feel more comfortable with

8-16+ people for local tournaments and leagues
20+ish for regionals, nats, or mega events
32+ minimum for worlds

Small enough for people to know each other, yet large enough so that when people travel to an event, more than the people you traveled with will be present. Which isn't un-reasonable.

On the Europe side of the coin... as far as I'm concerned, you guys have something seriously special going on over there and wish I had the time and money to join you guys when you have cool events like you do at stalhek.

As for BIG money prizes. Agreed, I could (almost ) care less about cash amount, but travel and badge prizes help get people to tournaments, attrach new players to check out the tournament scene, and increase attendance size at the specified tournament. ... Ok here I was going to go through and pick out ones that were specifically meant for tournament attendance increasement, but I realize all of my previous suggestions would help.... so ya.

On the subject of promos. They can't be a bad idea for players if they are limited to reprints of erratta'd cards or already released popular cards. No new cards should be printed. Personaly i wouldn't even need an alternate art, but hey, why not. Promos are a sure fire way of attraching new players and keeping the current ones. I can't remember who's idea it was to cut them, but they should've never of done it.

While we're on the subject of printing cards anyone else notice that Mentor to Vaughn and Assistant to Dr. West still aren't lcg yet? Can't be because they were CCG champs, cause currently I'm the only LCG world champ so... even in an erratta'd state they deserve it.

Sorry about that, back on topic....

More people = good.
Incentive for people to travel to play = good.

Another suggestion for increases attendance:

It hit me today. Why do the other two LCGs currently have a larger turnout? As far as I configure WH:I, despite its inferior game system, has a more current fanbase and is new. New means a lot in turn outs apparently. Case in point... Battlespirits. That games first big tournaments where decent... and I didn't see nearly the turnout they had last year. AGOT, has a longer history and more loyal players and more interesting formats.

So, what interesting thing does Cthulhu have over the other two LCGs? Excellent game system, but with broken cards and confusing rulings and text and an increasingly large erratta its becoming harder and harder to see that. And... oh. Guess thats it. Hmm. Well, I know I plan over the next few weeks to post some new unoffical alternate formats targeted, at least mostly, for casual and arena players. Who knows, maybe one of them will catch on and become a more official format and help give CoC that something special its missing.

Really, I think overall, the question we need to ask is what can CoC to do destinquish itself from its competition and attrach players that would enjoy it?

Ok... I almost hit publish, but just had an idea. How about a story based... event... tournament... thingy. Ya... ok. I honestly don't have that all worked out, nor would know enough about Lovecraft lore to fully suggest this idea. But have a game structure that would follow a story and the result affect an ongoing storyline... Now that I think about it... my idea is starting to sound a lot like L5R.... But hey, good ideas are still good ideas right? I swear that L5R has roughly the same 200 guys show up at every tournament... but they're there.

Meh...

ok there was alot of long posts and my attention couldnt hold up, so this may have been mentioned. im gonna keep this short for other people that have short attention spans too.

foremost ffg needs to bring back the events location finder thing we once had. you could look for the closest place that had sanctioned games, which was nice. second im sure they have a good idea of where the game is selling well, there has to be some kind of record keeping for that. states or sections of states with larger than normal coc sales should be pumped up with events, that way less people have to travel, and possibly a bigger turn out. and lastly, advertise in the asylum packs!!! let the casual players know that there are tourneys happening.

an example if boston has been selling the best on the east coast include something in there with a list of all other cities that will host one of the major events. the stuff is planned in advanced so put the flyers in the box!! wouldnt hurt to inform them of the event finder, if ffg ever has something like that online again either.

I agree that more can and should be done to establish or revitalize

the competitive aspect of organized play. FFG has taken some steps

but anyone who believes that they have done all they should and could

is looking through rose-colored glasses. There have to be more 'incentives'

and obviously big cash prizes 'bribes' are not the answer. A strong competitive

environment does not have to hurt the casual scene. All formats should be supported.

I like the idea of a 'storyline' tournament or 'storyline' league as Magnus A. has suggested.

What if the serials included in the Asylum Pack series were open-ended and the results of the

tournament or league determined the fate of the characters involved in the stories authored by Nate.

This could accentuate the 'cliff hanger' aspect. The $200 price tag to host a regional hurts participation

in those events and ultimately at Worlds as well. I also believe that Worlds should not be the only tournament

where the winner gets to design a card with their image. Winners of Regionals and or Special Events like

'Arkham Nights' should also gain that opportunity. I'm not suggesting World Champ level cards. Possibly factioned

Event cards that are not over-powered as the Champ cards have tended to be. For last year's winner a paid GenCon

pass or lodging? I really like the practice of custom domain cards and the 1st round buys for Regional winners is helpful.

Reprint promos with alternate art has potential as well. I really enjoyed Worlds this year primarily because of the good folks

I competed against and none of that would change with the implementation of the incentives we've discussed.

I only started playing this game in February of this year, but my GF and I jumped full into the game (which needed no coercion from me surprisingly) buying full playsets for two people. We regularly play CoC LCG whenever we are at the FFG event center just to show somebody there is playing the game.

To date, the only other people we have played against besides each other is James Hata and Jaffer Batica. This just goes to show the lack of interest even at the FFG event center. Others play I am sure (I beleive Thaadd Powell plays) but we have never seen anyone else play it there. Jaffer ran a CoC League there for a couple months, but due to illness I was no longer able to attend shortly after it began so I have no clue if attendance picked up in our absence but judging by the event center calendar, I would guess not.

As someone who was new to the game, I found it frustrating to not know anyone who even played the game. I wanted to play simply because I like the theme foremost, and thought the mechanics were adequate to keep me interested. I am not sure how rare it is for a person to buy into a game such as this with full knowledge that they may never be able to actually play the game so I have no idea if my input here is the exception and not the rule for what most new CoC players experience.

Warhammer Invasion is extremely popular in this area, but considering the amount of WHFB fans we have in the Minneapolis metro area this isnt surprising.

I know a lot of people who enjoy and respect Lovecraft, but those rare people are even more rare to be found playing this game. Judging by people who I have chatted with in my search for opponents, I think the past of CoC CCG has left a sour taste in some peoples mouths. Having not been through that era myself I can only guess what that entailed.

So between the stigma of the games past, and a theme that is considerably less popular than FFG's other licenses for LCG's, I think this is where the problem for CoC LCG lies in overcoming.

I know there are small cells of people who play this game locally in its current form, but I think they play so casually that they do not make a presence at game shops or the FFG event center to play new people. The sales numbers cant lie, there are people buying this. I know Katja and I have sold at least a dozen copies of the core game for local games shops by playing this game prominently in coffee shops/book stores and attracting people to see what we are doing and how wonderful it is to have a lovecraftian themed game to play.

Organizing a league is like pulling teeth from a wet cat, let alone finding new opponents to play against. But I do think that buying a league kit yourself and running demos at a store is the best way to go in getting the word out that this game is good enough to invest in. Baby steps to create a community and hopefully FFG can help guide in that promotion.

Speaking of which, FFG really need to get on the ball with their Servitor program. I applied months ago and never heard back from them. I know its not necessary to be a servitor to promote the game but their help will make this a lot easier to accomplish a successful result. 'Help me help you' sort of thing.

Without this basic foundation of a pool of players to choose from, competitive play will never grow and the great suggestions to help promote competitive play found in this thread will never be realized.

Thats my amateur opinion anyways.

Hybrid's post is beautiful. I haven't actually had time to read it, but I find it aesthetically quite pleasing.

(I only read the OP, no time for the replies)

I think just sending posters/handouts to retailers would be a step in the right direction for promotion. Most people don't know LCGs exists, and the ones that know they exists but don;t play have no idea how they work. I have seriously considered subsidizing Warhammer Invasion core sets at my FLGS just so the people there can see it, maybe buy it, and I might have someone new to play against.

Hi everyone!

The discussion is quite interesting, but there is one thing I don't understand.

It seems that there are 2 "factions": the first wants competitive tournaments, the second is happy with the current situation of a friendly environment with small tournaments.

I honestly don't understand why the two situations described should be mutually exclusive: suppose (just for the sake of the argument) that tomorrow FFG is going to start a system that includes:

- regular tournaments with nice prizes

- a common, world-wide system to keep track of the results of the players

I don't see a reason, here, why this would lead to a "destroy" of casual game or a loss of casual players. No one will ever be able to force you not to play with your friends, or organize small casual tournament at your store, so how can possible be that a competitive set of rules-player will lead this to an end?

Instead, in my opinion, the best thing to do is exactly to move in both directions at the same time; and in doing this, the LCG format is a perfect way, even more now that every card is already present in 3 copies in each AP. A casual player will always have all the cards in any case, if he buys every AP. A competitive player too. So, the only difference is the approach to the game. And again, there is no way to force someone in one way or another.

So, I fully support the idea of having a more competitive "field".

What I think we, as player, can do, is basically 2 things:

- organize tournament in our area:small tournament is ok. If you want to try to organize something with prizes, since the LCG structure doesn't permit to have prizes like "rare" cards, my suggestion is: try to buy/produce something particular for the game (stone domain, altered cards by artists, for example)

- write more articles about deckbuilding, strategies, deck and stuff like this. In particular, something I would like to do since a long time (but I have no time to do it) is try to create some kind of repository with the old articles (about resourcing, for examples) that someone (Kennon, maybe? I don't remember) wrote in the CCG era. This could help in creating a more "scientific" approach to the game, hence enhancing the play-level.

my 2 cents

Konx.