All right, finally had our first encounter at sea, and all in all, I rather liked the idea and even the execution. Did have a few questions though:

1) The ships start with their ends to the back of the map, however if the sea drift is pushing directly back, then the ship could "flee" on the first turn, right?

2) Some cannons have knockback. On the first turn, the heroes hit the Leader of the ship and knocked him back off the map (i.e. I was foolish enough to put the leader at the captain's wheel of the ship, they shot him and knocked him off the rear of the ship, which also happened to be the rear of the map). This was played correctly, yes? To prevent this, no one should line up that close to the rear of the ship on the first turn?

3) When a ship is ambushed, the OL goes first. After the OL's turn, all the "end round" activity should happen, right? Sailing and water drift. So sailing will happen one time before the heroes have a chance to move, correct?

4) Swinging on the rope, if you land in deep water, do you also have to pay the fatigue penalties? Also, the rope is a "station", so only one hero per turn can use it?

5) Speaking of deep water fatigue penalties, what was the consensus on varying armor such as the Wizard's Robe? (i.e. +0 for melee, +2 for ranged/magic)

6) If a boat covers the whirlpool, does it still suck creatures in? Or I guess to the boat and there they stop?

All in all, we rather enjoyed the ship-to-ship combat and can't wait for it to happen again. The heroes are starting to understand /why/ certain ship upgrades are important and they've boughten 2 more cannons to help. We ended up having two encounters, one a green encounter, the other was the heroes attacking the Siren. Yes, I can see why some players feel the Siren /can/ be undefeatable since a wussy OL could send her to the corner of a map and just have the skeletons (exploding in my case) go kill the heroes and she's perfectly safe, however that's just a pansy way to play.

The fight was a rather good one. We had rocks and a whirlpool on the location card we drew, and I kept the Siren protected behind the rocks. Trenloe fell to the Siren's call and ran out into the water but was killed by skeletons before he drowned. Runemaster Thorn did a surprise launch, drank a power potion, but missed! and then died. Corbin stayed on the boat fending off skeletons while the ranger with Skye the familiar (can't remember his name) kept picking off skeletons trying to see the siren but never coming into LOS, that is until the end. I put her around the corner of one rock safe from LOS but forgot about the sails and no drift. The 3 spaces moving forward brought the ranger into LOS and he hit her with his webbed weapon (claws or something). That stuck her in place. Fortunately the skeletons killed the ranger that turn. The last turn, in a desperate grasp, Corbin swung out next to the Siren and ended up killing her!

It was a rather tense fight and one all the players really enjoyed. Lessons learned on both sides and we can't wait for the next session

-shnar

1) The ships start with their ends to the back of the map, however if the sea drift is pushing directly back, then the ship could "flee" on the first turn, right?

I don't know if it's possible on any of the encounter maps, but if it is then it's definitely legal (albeit very strange).

2) Some cannons have knockback. On the first turn, the heroes hit the Leader of the ship and knocked him back off the map (i.e. I was foolish enough to put the leader at the captain's wheel of the ship, they shot him and knocked him off the rear of the ship, which also happened to be the rear of the map). This was played correctly, yes? To prevent this, no one should line up that close to the rear of the ship on the first turn?

You can't use knockback to knock someone off of the map. Knockback specifies that you move them to a space, and there are none off the edge of the map.

3) When a ship is ambushed, the OL goes first. After the OL's turn, all the "end round" activity should happen, right? Sailing and water drift. So sailing will happen one time before the heroes have a chance to move, correct?

Correct

4) Swinging on the rope, if you land in deep water, do you also have to pay the fatigue penalties? Also, the rope is a "station", so only one hero per turn can use it?

Rope is a station, so only one user per rope per turn. The effects of any terrain entered take effect as normal.

5) Speaking of deep water fatigue penalties, what was the consensus on varying armor such as the Wizard's Robe? (i.e. +0 for melee, +2 for ranged/magic)

Don't know if there was one.

6) If a boat covers the whirlpool, does it still suck creatures in? Or I guess to the boat and there they stop?

As written putting your ship on top of the whirlpool would not affect the ship and would prevent anyone from getting sucked down it. They'd still get pulled towards it, but once they're pulled onto the ship they'd no longer be in the water and so would be safe.

shnar said:

1) Yes.

2) I don't think a figure can be knockbacked off any map because Knockback says: After inflicting at least 1 damage (before applying the effects of armor) to a figure with a Knockback attack, the attacker may immediately move each affected target figure up to three spaces away from its current location. The figures must be moved to spaces that do not contain other figures or obstacles that block movement.

They must be moved to a space , and out of the map is not a space as defined by the rules, so they can't be moved out of the map.

3) This is annoying because the heroes can "be fled" off the map by the current without having had a turn to act. The rules say: Finally, at the end of every round during an encounter, movement is caused by ocean currents (p. 28). The question is: in Descent, does a round end when both sides have played, or does a round end when the OL has played? In Descent, we are very used to the fact that a round ends when the OL has played because it is almost always so, but the general rule in games is that a round ends when everyone has played.

I did not find anywhere that Descent defines a "round" otherwise than the general rule, so I'd go with that, moreso because it solves the "being fled off the map" problem. However, in an ambush you must remember for the whole encounter that all "end of round" effects take place after the heroes' turn, not the OL's.

4) Same question if you are knockbacked into the water. The rules say: When a figure is moved by an ocean current, the movement is free – it does not cost the figure any movement points, fatigue, or wounds (p.30). I saw nowhere that you don't pay the cost when you "fall" into the water, so I guess that, strictly by the rules as written, you do; however, since the rules start with When a figure is moved... , I do think it would make sense to extend the ruling for current to all cases the figure is being moved instead of moving on its own, so in the "interpreted rules" I would say that you pay no cost (we do that within our group). Yes, the Rope is a station (rules p. 25).

5) Because there were two conflicting informations for one characteristic (Armor), the consensus was that the hero could choose, so he should almost always choose the lower value. For what it's worth in Descent, it also makes sense thematically (Wizard's Robes are magical and have almost no weight).

6) To the outer edge of the boat and then they stop, I think.

shnar said:

1. Ocean Currents happens after the ships move, and ships start with all sails raised, so ships should not retreat off the starting edge unless they deliberately lower sails.

2. Debatable. I'd argue that "A figure not on a ship may flee the map by simply moving off any edge of the map" means that a figure must itself spend movement to flee, and not be moved by other effects. Knocking figures off the edge (for either side) is cheap.

3. Wrong, the round ends after both the hero and OL go. So in an ambush, the ship will move after the heroes' turn.

4. Yes and yes.

5. Situational armor does not count for swimming. So a ring of protection will weigh you down more than a Wizards Robe.

6. I'd argue that whatever terrain is on top is what is used, the same as you ignore the clear space under a rubble tile. So you ignore whirlpool spaces covered by a boat.

I agree with you. Encounters are a lot more fun in SoB than RtL.

shnar said:

1) Yes that would be possible. If I remember correctly, all the locations with backward drift roll the red die, so if the ship leaves it's sails up it will always at least stay in the same position. My group plays that wind movement occurs before the current, though. Nothing in the rules specifies which you should do first, so my group went with the order they were introduced in the book.

2) Pg. 17 SOB. A figure not on a ship may flee the map by simply moving off any edge of the map, whereupon it is removed.

Also, there are no spaces off the edge of the map to use any movement with knockback to push them off the map. Regardless of that, you can't just move off the map while on a ship.

3) Yes. It can really suck for the heros on one map in particular. I have always interpreted it that the round ends after the Overlord has gone. That is the way it is normally and unless it is specified somewhere else, the normal rule applies. Though I wouldn't argue it much if my group wanted to do it differently.

4) Yes and Yes.

Pg. 4 FAQ

Q: If movement point costs are ignored by figures suffereing Knockback (or smaller movement styles like Swinging on a Rope, Jumping, and Climbing out of a Pit), do they still pay Fatigue penalties (such as Sea of Blood's deep water?)

A: Yes

Note that movement by the current specifies in it's rules that you ignore the fatigue costs.

5) Answered by others.

6) That is how I would interpret it. The sucking power of the whirlpool is just that great. They could end up on the ship.

The only sea encounters my group has had were the siren, a flock of silver leeching razorwings (which murdered the party), and a giant walking on the water. We really want to see how ship to ship works at some point. It's good to hear that someone has positive feedback on it.

shnar said:

As you can see from previous posts, there's not so much a consensus as a couple of popular positions. Personally, I'm in the camp that says conditional armor values like this don't apply to swimming since swimming is not any type of attack. I'm pretty sure there's no armor that says +X Armor while swimming

Although... a suit of armor that had +X armor and "counts as +Y Armor for swimming penalties" where Y < X would be pretty cool.

Thanks for the responses. The sea map in question was "The Cliffs of Insanity". Boats all start on the "north" side of the map pointing "south" and the current is indeed a Green Die going North. We were mostly confused because it was an ambush, so if the OL went first, then the ships would move before the heroes could. With only 2 sails, the ship could very easily move forward 2 and drift back 3 in an automatic flee. They fortunately had Elven Sails at that point so sailed 3 spaces and drifted back 3 spaces.

And on that topic, according to the "vanilla" rules, the Round Sequence as described on page 7 ends after the OL's turn, so I think we played that correctly (i.e. the OL moves, then the boats move, then the heroes move and then the OL moves and then the boats move, etc), it just felt weird.

As for not being able to knockback a creature off the map, I know my players are /not/ going to like that, especially considering the Knockback rules were written with the idea that the map was all contained and never had any "off map" entry points to be knocked into. It just won't make sense to them. Yes, I know, it's Descent, but they still /try/ to make some sense of the rules. We'll discuss it and figure out if we want to house-rule it or not (especially after they consider that it goes both ways, the OL could "knockback" them off the map too).

Also, I'm not sure how my group is going to like Knockback = Penalty, also the Rope = Penalty (since that's how they get off the ship to the island, swing over to it). We'll talk about that as well as see how we want to play it.

-shnar

P.S. James, we did discover later that if a ship touches a whirlpool, it takes a point of damage, so it's not invulnerable to it, but that still didn't clarify how the whirlpool acts while covered up like that.

They rewrote the rules for all special abilities in the back of RtL and SoB, both of which have maps with exits on them. If they'd wanted to let knockback send someone off the map they could have changed how it works there.

shnar said:

1. I think you should look at the vanilla rules again.
DJitD pg7
Descent: Journeys in the Dark is played over a series of rounds. During each round, every player receives one turn , starting with the heroes and ending with the overlord. After the overlord player has taken his turn, the round is over and the next round begins with the heroes taking their turns once again.
One Round Consists of:
Turn 1: First Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 2: Second Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 3: Third Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 4: Fourth Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 5: Overlord Player’s Turn

To my mind, we have a clear definition that a round consists of every player having a turn. Yes, it is also sequenced that the heroes start and the OL finishes, but I don't think the sequence defines the round, I think everyone having a turn defines the round. Saying the round ends after the OL has his turn is addition information not definition, IMO.
In ambushes you have the case that the sequence definition is changed, but the round definition is not. Therefore the additional information may be discarded as 'no longer applicable' due to changes in the sequencing. However the round definition as being when every player has a turn remains unchanged.

I don't think this is an absolutely definitive argument, but I think it is a much stronger one than the reverse, and since it also closes an apparent anomally, why would you choose the sequence as the round definition?

Edit: in summary, just to be clear, I think a round is clearly defined as requiring all players to have had a turn, which means that it will finish after the heroes turn during ambushes (which specifically change the sequence), not after the OL's turn (which ignores the first definition of a round and is sequence based when the sequence has been changed). This means the heroes cannot be shunted off the map before they get a turn.

2. What is not to like? It is a clear and specific rules reference that closes a loophole !
There is a difference between exploiting loopholes and liking them...

3. The fatigue penalty in water is the anti-drowning penalty. It doesn't matter how you got into the deep water, you still have to not-drown, which means paying the fatigue.
As for the rope, when you swing to the island you should be swinging into shallow water anyway, so what's the issue?

shnar said:

Doesn't the Green Die only have 0 or 1 Range on it so the ship would move, at most, 1 space because of the current? Or, did you mean the yellow die?

I don't know if this could have relevence to the knockback stuff, but I'll put this down anyway.

pg. 28 SOB

Colliding with Figures
Figures that a ship collides with are simply pushed ahead of the ship (even if soaring, since otherwise situations could be created where multiple figures are in the same space). No damage occurs to either the figure or the ship. If a figure is pushed off the edge of the map, that figure is considered to have fled the encounter.

Most probable important parts bolded. Though I don't think much, if any, argument could be made based on that.

Corbon said:

It also says right after your bolded part, "After the overlord player has taken his turn, the round is over and the next round begins...". So, it says in the rules that both ways are right. Granted JitD came out before SoB and the wierdness that could result.

I don't see the wind and current movement as being and anomoly if it happens before the heros get to go. The only real issue I see would be that they could hit a rock before they get to go. Being forced to flee isn't much of a penalty to the heros.

Solairflaire said:

Right, but I've already made two arguments about that in the post you quoted. I'll restate them since you appear to have entirely missed the first at least.
1. One is a definition of a round (what the round is) and the other is a sequencing issue for the round (when a round is (over)). Since sequencing has been explicitly modified by the Ambush rules, it doesn't make sense to rely on a text portion about sequencing above a text portion about content of a round.
2. Even if both were 'equal', you have a situation where one option creates an anomaly, and the other does not. If given a choice, choosing the anomalous one makes you... well, politeness forbids. (I think most people thinking that way simply missed the first part of the text that describes a round as having all players have a turn).

I think any rule which ends an encounter before a side gets a turn (which isn't due to enemy action finishing that side before they get a turn) is an anomaly of a sort. If not an anomaly, then rather stupid.

Being forced to flee without getting a turn, based on a random factor you cannot even influence rather than opponent action , can be a huge penalty. It can cost a city if the heroes are trying to drive off a Lt. It can cost the entire game if it is the fifth city, or if the Lt has a crucial plot token. There are no bigger penalties possible (if such is the case).
There are complaints (and discussed houserules) about one of the sea encounter locations that can have the heroes hit rocks based on a random roll no matter what they do in their turn - but at least they get a turn to do something! Arguably it would be possible, even if not likely, for them to win the encounter on their first turn.

Edit: PS If both ways are right, then a round cannot be completed until both ways have happened. Therefore the end of the round would be after the OLs turn and after all players have had a turn. Therefore, in an ambush, the wind/current wouldn't kick in until after the OL's second turn.

I was only pointing out that the passage was there. I understood your arguments and that was the only real argument I could think of against them, really.

I don't think it's possible for a lieutenant to cause an ambush unless you're playing against the Beastman Lord in RtL. The heros will always get a turn in SoB lieutenant battles regardless of the way you define the round. They will also always go first, since there is no ambush. The Overlord could make the heros flee on certain maps even if they do get a turn anyway by using the current. He could keep his lieutenant (or encounter monsters) on the far end of the map and the current could push them off with no actual dice being rolled at all. It ends up being the same thing.

It's a problem with the map design if the heros can die on the first turn by a map element. I think the location is called Wild Vortex. I think it can still happen even if they do get a turn. Even dropping the anchor isn't a guarantee (1 in 3 of catching I think). Wind and current happen after the round is over so you won't know until you get to that point. The only thing the heros can do is move the ship a little and hope the current isn't especially strong when the game gets to that point.

All in all, if that's the only location where it is a problem, then it would still be balanced. If Shnar did indeed mean the yellow die and not the green die, then that would make 2 possible locations where it would be a problem (it wouldn't be if they had a brigantine). I don't have my group's Descent stuff here so I can't look through and see if there are other possible problem locations.

Also, remember that an enemy ship could be forced to flee an encounter because of the current. They would always get a turn, but it would be rather anti-climactic.

A simple houserule to fix the whole issue would be no ship can be forced to flee by the current. The whole issue becomes a moot except for the one location then.

Corbon said:

Is all the water on the island map considered shallow? I didn't think it was, and only the "whiter" water directly surrounding the island was shallow, the rest being deep, so unless the heroes unanchor the boat, raise the sails, move closer to the island, lower the sails and reanchor the boat (which none of my players have wanted to do), their best option is to swing off the boat and hopefully hit shallow water, then wade onto the island.

-shnar

shnar said:

I agree that there is a ring of 'lighter' water around the island that is 'shallow'. The darker water further offshore is 'deep'. And yes, when you swing off the boat, you should always be landing in shallow water unless you don't move the boat and roll very badly (maybe).

I don't see why your heroes object to working the vessel. It is by far the fastest way to get ashore - get the glyph with one hero on turn one or two (who has a 4 MP boost from moving the ship sideways 2 spaces) while the other work the ship turn 1 and glyph out turn two, glyphing back in turn three (some possibly even glyphing out turn 1 and back in turn 2).
You only need to raise the anchor and 1 sail, then use the captains wheel. That s actually doable by one hero if he is fast and/or has good fatigue. All you have to do the next turn is lower the sail - since there is no current on the island you don't actually need to lower the anchor and have it catch.

I'll suggest it to my group, see what they think. Thorn is one of the heroes, so if they intend to glyph onto the island, they really don't even need to move the ship, just have him teleport to the glyph right away...

-shnar

shnar said:

Ahh well, that is an excellent reason not to bother!

Yeah, Thorn throws most normal tactics out the window in SoB. In my game Thorn always teleported to a glyph and the rest took a trip past town. Except for that one map where line of sight is limited.