Seriously, I always thought on paper it sounded like such a great deal but in reality it is just as bad and possibly worse on the ol pocket-book as the typical CCG model.

Going by Warhammer Invasion, the 1st year of this game's existence there will be $280 worth of product.

$40 core game

$30x2 "big expansions"

$15x12 "small expansions"

That is 5 years of Descent products crushed into one year.

Card games are still INSANELY EXPENSIVE!!!

Frog said:

And let's see, what was black lotus or time walk worth for magic? A single card that if you wanted to play with it cost you maybe $300? And you're comparing $280 to have a playset of almost every card in the entire core set plus 14 expansions? Not even close. Knowing that everyone has access to a play set of every card and there is no rarity, booster packs, online singles being sold, etc. Oh yes... it is by far a great deal to answer your question.

ellindar said:

Lets say this game survives 5 years like Descent. Would you really want to have to shell out $1500 to keep up?

rofl

Frog said:

If you think $1500 over 5 years is even close to what a top contender or someone who 'keeps up' on magic spent in 5 years... your'e insane lol. Not even close. So to answer your question, absolutely, if I really like the game and was looking to keep up on every single race, and newest card, that's well within reason and way way WAY cheaper than a ccg.

1st. Gaming is a hobby. Invest as much or as little as you like. 2nd If you are going to start comparing why don't you compare to other hobbies and see how it stands up. For example how about golfing. What does a good set of clubs and equipment cost? Country club dues or play fees? Regular expense for golf balls? I mean, people will fork out a ton of money on other hobbies or on junk like 3 bucks for energy drink then complain because a pack of cards that expands the game they love to play cost them 10 bucks. I'm not trying to be rude here or sound harsh. It's just that I don't see the point of these kinds of posts when people bring them up.

I'm talking as a boardgamer...$300/yr for one game is a lot of cash. It's not just some little purchase. It's like saying you are going to buy all the core rule books for 2 RPGs...EVERY YEAR.

Whereas most boardgames might get one expansion a year clocking at at 1/6th price.

Speaking as someone who has played and collected alot of CCG's, LCG is very much superior and cheaper than any ccg. I see this becoming a more common thing.

ellindar said:

I might add also that the new format you are getting 3 of every card in the expansions! How much would you spend trying get multiples of a lot of good uncommons or rares in other ccg's? I have all 3 games so far (and 3 sets of everything for Thrones) and most likely will get LOTR if it plays well. LCG model is awesome.

Frog said:

Yeah, it's more expensive than keeping up with a boardgame. Nobody ever denied that. But your original question was whether it was as expensive as a CCG, and most players say No.

All questions of cost need to be balanced by the question "Is it worth it?" And that's a personal question. Your answer can't possibly be the same as someone else's.

I just helped a guy move who had ten shelves full of boxes of baseball cards. I thought to myself, "Hey, at least I get to play with my cards." But at the end of the day, if that's how he wanted to spend his money and it made him happy, more power to him.

It was pointed out in another thread that to keep up with the 3 of everycard that is in the small expansions you would need 3 of the core set as well.

Using Warhammer Invasion as an example, are the large expansions that way as well? Mostly singles and not 3x everything like the small expansion model FFG is currently implementing with Cthulhu?

So we are talking too much a commitment I think.

I might try the core game, but it is looking like I'll just keep playing MECCG. It has been my fave game for 15 years and even though it is a "dead" CCG, it is still alive at my place! And the #1 reason for that is solo rules from day 1.

That alone makes this new game by FFG, a better value than any of the other current CCGs/LCGs on the market. Cause it wont' matter 15 years from now if it is still hip...cause you can still play it.

The large expansions are 3 of as well.

Toqtamish said:

Good. It's too bad they did not do that in the core set. But it the only time you will have to do that though...just assume if you like the game you will be buying 3x core sets.

Toqtamish said:

Is that confirmed? They already screwed themselves IMO by not including 3 of EVERY card in the base set. What's the point of making it a LCG if you cannot get it all in one box instead of six boxes for 2 people???

I do have to laugh at the guy talking about Magic cards that cost thousands of dollars. That is a total fluke and a 1 time thing in Card Game history that will be hard to ever repeat. Those cards are so rare and so few exist from such small print runs. Todays basement designed games have print runs much larger than MTG in the beginning ever did. LCG format is a whole lot more affordable for anyone that wants to play CG's. FFG took a great step moving CCG's from that horrid booster pack crap format to this one.

I agree with you Frog on MECCG as the top LoTR CG. I still have all mine from back in the day and nothing in the CG market has yet to really give you that lotr feel like it does. Hell until WOTR came out there wasn't really a BG that gave you that feel IMO. No way i will ever part with my MECCG collection either.

yes the large expansions for the other lcg's are 3 of now.

There's still so little information about on this game, in terms of how it'll be packaged and deck construction, that it There's still so little information about on this game, in terms of how it'll be packaged and deck construction, that it's not even clear to me if we've had official word that there's a 3 card limit in decks, other than some people saying they were old during their demos that the expansions would follow the current LCG trend of 20x3.

If the shadow decks are going to be fixed, surely they'll just be whatever they are. Of cause people can make up their own missions and so shadow decks themed together, also I'm sure the rules will have something to cover tweaking shadow decks for greater and lesser challenge, but I'm still not taking anything as read in terms of what is or isn't a must buy.

I assume all 3 of the other LCGs work in that each expansion contains cards for all of the playable factions. The cycle then covers a bigger story, at least in WH:I, but has equal stuff for everyone. LotR, isn't using the basic 1v1 faction vs faction mechanic, so working on that assumption, in terms of having to keep buying to keep up could be a mistake.

From what I've read it seems as they expand it will be to introduce different geographic area of Middle Earth. Which seems to me to be easier to just skip a whole release or cycle of release without it being such an issue.

Also depending on quite how they release the stuff, you could always just buy the expansions that have the new quests and shadow decks and ignore the ones that focus on free peoples cards if you so choose.

Still having played CCGs since Magic beta, I can say with some certainty that LCGs are cheaper. Boardgames are cheaper still, but as others have said how much real worth is there in these comparisons

For one year, I'm collecting WH:I. I stop playing it some months ago, when the gameplay shifted into a game of "sniping opponent's cards as fast as possible", but I'm still collecting the cards, just in case FFG rewrites the game rules, or in case I come up with my own set of rules, ... or just to avoid considering I put so many money in a game that doesn't fit my taste , and thus lost that money . And this latter reason is why I'm thinking LCG format isn't that unexpensive, even compared to CCGs.

Let's compare the 3 most expensive hobbies :

• Non-collectible miniature games : you need to build an army. You exactly know what you buy, and you don't buy stuff you won't use unless you specificaly want to.
• Collectible cards/miniatures games : you need to build a deck/army. You don't know what you'll get. You'll often get stuff you don't need, but you'll have chances to trade/sell it away. You'll also be able to buy single cards/minis in dedicated shops.
• Living card games : you need to build a deck. You know exactly what you buy, but the packaging forces you to buy stuff you don't need, and you'll have pretty much no chances to trade/sell it away. You won't be able to buy singles.

So all in all, each game type as its own pros and cons. And for the casual player, each will be as expesnive as the others ($100 to get an army, or a box of boosters, or a core set and some chapters).

Things change when it comes to completists. To me, there are no completists in miniature games (let's imagine how much money a WH40K completists would need to build at least one army of every faction ), a "completist" will limits himself to 1-3 factions and get all minis of those factions. Being a completist in CCG (or even worst, in collectible minis, like I am for Monsteproclaypse) is the most expensive game hobby you'll found. But here again, you can limit yourself to all cards of one side (like in Star Wars), or color (MTG). It is here that the LCG is cheaper : for completists. But are we all completists ? (I admit I am).

One has to admit that the way FFG designed its chapters/battlepacks, if you want to collect one side/color/faction/whatever, you end up collecting the whole game (and thus buy cards you don't want). And this isn't saving money for the players. I'm OK with FFG being a company that needs to make money (as all companies do), I'm not OK with defending the LCG format as being so much cheaper than CCG : you simply don't end up with the same stuff (complete sets vs partial collection geared toward deckbuilding).

hey, Frog, never played magic seriously?

let's say some numbers (in Europe):

a 15 card booster pack costs 3,90 € and you can find 1 rare card, or if you are very lucky 2 rare cards. A set is composed by 250 cards, so if you want that 40 cards to build a deck you have to buy if you are the luckiest guy in the world 4 packs (never heard for that xD) and you have, if you are lucky, 8 rare cards, that is riddicolous, my white deck has 20 rare cards and i still need other cards. This "operation" costs 16€ (okok that can't happen in real life) and if you want the 20 lands you still need you have to buy a starter set that costs another 10€. ok, til now we spent 26€ and we have -60 useful cards and 60 unuseful cards for a total of 10 competitive cards (rare cards) = 120 cards (and some of then are not unique)

if you are not lucky and you want to buy single cards you have to spend mhhh 10 € for 20 commonc cards, 20€ for 20 uncommon cards, 40€ for 20 rare cards and you have 60 cards for 70€

then every 3 months there is a new expansion of 250 cards with new rares that you need and another money to spend.

In LCG you can buy the core set : 35€ and you have 216 unique cards, you are competitive and you can build different decks with only 1 core set

every month a new 60 cards expansion will be available for about 10-12€ and you know what there is in the expansion so if you don't want it you don't buy it

in magic if you want a card you have to buy as many packs until you find it.

Living card games : you need to build a deck. You know exactly what you buy, but the packaging forces you to buy stuff you don't need, and you'll have pretty much no chances to trade/sell it away. You won't be able to buy singles.

that's not true, you can buy singles from other players like ALL of the other card games ^^

Frog said:

Hobbies are expensive yes. Check out some other card gamer's habits. At Gencon, I saw some guy 60 bucks a few times just to get some rares and uncommons he needed for Universal Fighting System. Some guy offered someone else 10 dollars for a card.

In Vampire the Eternal Struggle, every release of 200 some cards I would buy 3 booster boxes. (240 dollars). Yes I would hit the secondary market and sell some of those off, but I wasn't selling extras. I was deciding between cards I wanted to keep, vs. cards I wanted to sell. I had to evalualte on an individual basis if a card was worth keeping in my collection vs how much money I could get for it. Even if I wasn't to sell them, I would still be having significant gaps in my collection.

Magic the Gathering, people buy 2-3 boxes every release and have big gaps (thanks to the fourth rarity), and we're talking GAPS gaps, not "i need my fourth copy of BLAH still" gaps (well those too)... That's close to 300 dollars.

For your 280 dollars how many cards are you getting? (actually I don't know...). but that's 20 seperate cards per expansion. That's already 240 cards which is the size of some of the aforementioned games expansions.

If they were to include 3x of each in the core set, they would have to either make it a lot more expensive or have a lot less diversity of cards. The LCG core sets come with about 200 cards divided into four different decks.

It's not just the old Magic cards that are extremely expensive as singles . Some of the top level standard format current decks retail in at ~$700 for a single deck if you were to buy every single at card shop prices with the introduction of Mythical rarity. In comparison you could get 3 x of every single card printed for a Game of Thrones for less than that and provide yourself and several friends with tournament caliber decks. You can get all of the game of thrones chapter packs that have been released to this point for just over $6 each online. Yes you can buy singles in magic, but there are tons of singles that run more than the price of a chapter pack or even a core set or deluxe expansion. Cards like the new Jace the Mind Sculptor, baneslayer angel, ect, and Magic has the 4 copy per deck limit instead of 3.

Trading isn't completely ruled out as an option in LCG either if you are willing to limit yourself to one or two factions and have friends who play different factions that you can trade with or split the purchase of packs with. Being an absolute completionist is more of a collector issue than a gaming one anyway as far as getting 3 x of EVERY chapter pack. Some packs just don't have any singles that your faction may need duplicates of, and if you choose to play EVERY faction with 3 copies of every card, well then you can hardly be considered a casual player.

And no, you don't NEED 3 x core set just because the new chapter packs will have 3 copies of everything. The core set cards obviously will make up less and less of your total play deck as more 3 x packs are released, but as long as your opponents are playing with similar limitations it will still stay balanced. You only NEED 3 x of everything if you are trying to compete with opponents who are playing with 3 x of everything. And if you do buy multiple chapter packs and end up with cards you don't need, it's no different than buying a ccg booster box and getting duplicates you don't need that are commons and have zero trade or resale value. Except the LCG player knew what rares were in his packs before he bought them.

Whether you play casually or competitively, you will get more unique cards for your money with the LCG set up. But you can't compare the price of playing a CCG casually with a starter deck to playing an LCG with 3 x of every card every printed and expect the LCG to be cheap. But if you want a card game that does not require any collecting you might want to check out Dominion or Thunderstone or the upcoming Ascension: Chronicles of the Godslayer.

What is all this talking about 'keeping up'? It's a friggin' cooperative game!

There's no need to keep up with anything or anyone. Buy the game, play it till you get bored, then buy expansions as you see fit or play something else entirely.

Jhaelen is right. LCG is the perfect format for a coop game. After all, isn't "Arkham Horror" a coop "living boardgame" with its many expansions ?

And here, the ability to build multiple decks from a single collection is definately golden : you'll be able to play mutliplayers just with one player collection. And if you end up with a "weaker" deck, it is not your problem, it is the problem of your teammates

Can't wait to buy 2 Core Sets of this game !

If you want to travel and explore the cool regions of Middle Earth, you will have to buy tons of expansions to get there.

It sounds like they are doing one region at a time. It seems that many of you have no idea just how big Middle Earth really is and that you will never get to those really cool locations without buying a gazillion expansions.

With MECCG, the very first set had around 500 cards, all the main characters from all the books, factions, enemies, and locations. You could travel from one side of Middle-Earth to the other rather than being stuck in Mirkwood for 6 "mini expansions".

Sure, you can buy just the core set...but you might be stuck in Farmer Maggot's field fighting rats and crows! lol

If it is really set up this way, then I'll pass. Otherwise, of course I'd like to try the game out.

It will be setup like the other LCG's in that the packs(adventure packs I think for this game) will add content to the game. But you by no means have to get that stuff. Trust me I have the AgoT and W:I games and you can play forever on just a core set. I'd say just get the core set and play with that, if you get bored and want more get the packs, otherwise you will have a complete game with just the core set and low investment.

Frog said:

That's definately right. But here, I'll use other people's argument : you can't have as many cards as in MECCG cardset for a fraction of its price. To explore the land in MECCG, you needed at least 5 starters (to get all the fixed cards, including some heroes, locations and reasons to get there like the corresponding factions cards). That alone is worthing the price of 2 core sets (roughly).

But here again, the coop aspect of the game may save it, for you : as a MECCG player (from what I understand) you have access to its amazing artwork. Thus, nothing prevents you from designing your own cards, and quest decks. Moreover, since the game is coop, it'll be quite easy to get the other players' agreement for using your custom cards and deck. So, if you adhere to the game system (resolving quests and killing monsters, as it was abstracted from GenCon report) you may expand the game the way you want, and explore the regions you like. Personnaly, I just can't wait for a "King Under The Mountain" quest deck ).

I too miss MECCG much .