I'm looking into what you guys think is the best CoC LCG deck ever send in your idea and tell how it works and we will see who is the best CoC deck builder of all time!

Joshua James Harper Bell

Well, world champions made it clear that the Hastur/Agency build is currently the best deck from the set.

As the professor stated. We learned at the World Championships that the best deck contains:

3 - Magah Birds

As a new player to the game and an exile from the grossly unbalanced problems of the tabletop wargames I've been playing for years (I'm looking at you, GW!) it's a real shame to see the same problems going on here. I started up with four other friends, we all bought starter and expansion at the same time and swapped cards around so we all have at least one complete faction and some other stuff to vary the decks. I picked Hastur because I just thought it was cool that you could have a faction that was all about driving stuff insane - how Lovecraftian is that?! Now, however, it's looking like I have the deck that is the one to beat. I generally play Mono-Hastur, Hastur/Synd, or Hastur/Shub for variety. I'm finding myself having to try to build sub-par decks just so it stays fun for my opponents playing say mono-MU or mono-Yog decks. We split some APs a couple of weeks ago and I got Magah Birds and 70 Steps. I immediately put them into my deck as I thought they might be useful ...

I won both games without either opponent ever having any chance of getting into the game. I've now had to agree that I will not use both in the same deck again, or nobody will play me. We're not a very competitive group of LCG-ers, mainly because the group includes some hardcore tournament players of other games, we use CoC as the fun/friendly game just play for the fun of it, win or lose.

Anyway, /rant. I'm just saying that it's a shame things have been allowed to get to this stage. I am REALLY pleased though, that note has been taken and (70?) steps will be taken soon to balance some of the silliness.

Also, really interesting to see that although Hastur/Agency dominated in the first two competitions, Highlander seems to have contained a much wider range of factions. This suggests that without the very specific rush combo of birds/steps etc being reliably available, all factions balance out much more. Also interesting to see that skill clearly still plays a huge part with one guy winning all three competitions! Well done Tom!

For reference:

Hatsur: 20

3- Magah Birds
3- The Seventy Steps
2- Victoria Glasser
3- The Cavern of Flame
3- Agrophobia
3- Infernal Obession
3- Crazed Arsonist

Agency: 9

3- Endless Interrogation
3- Shotgun Blast
3- Small Price to Pay

Yog: 3
3- Servant From Out of Time

Neutral: 18

8- Alaskan Sledge Dog
3- Diseased Sewer Rats
2- Descendant of Eibon
2- Furtive Zoog
2- Parallel Universe
1- Guardian Pillar

Is the list I used for Worlds. Best deck ever in CoC history including the CCG days would probably have to be one either the Rainbow or Ancient Lock

Those 2 broke each of their respective formats in such a way that it was beyond unfair. The Rip Off, Jump Tech and the Estate decks were pretty close too.

Magnus Arcanis said:

Argh, I forgot Agorophobia.

I don't think I ever saw you play one. I had three, but I don't think the other two included it in their deck.

Chevee

Random_Person said:

I think I only played one once as a top deck in one of the earlier rounds. Otherwise it became a resource or discarded via EI.

Not sure about the others, can't say I specifically recall seeing any. Kinda hard to imagine them without it though its a pretty solid card. Not impossible though.

What is this "Highlander" style deck people keep mentioning? I've never seen the movies & the only thing I know about them is the quote, "There can be only one!" That suggests a mono-faction deck to me but we already have the term "mono-faction" for that.

Evil Jim said:

Close.

Only one copy of a specific card in a deck.

Its a rather challenging format since resourcing is a crucial thing now that you cant count n seeing another copy of a certain card in a deck. Not to mention doing away with such strategies that rely on multiples such as sledge dogs or magah birds or bringers of fire which are effectively neutered by that format.

I'm new to the game, and a lot of the higher intricacies elude me. I was looking at Magah Birds and 70 Steps after reading the Gencon related posts, and am just curious, what is the reason that Magah Birds is so devastating in conjunction with 70 Steps? I'm clearly missing something, cause Magah Birds don't look that good. Why are they?

Davy said:

Going first means that I lose the advantage of succeeding at a story first. Magah Birds and Seventy Steps remove that disadvantage. If I can play Seventy Steps and a Maga Birds on my first turn, that means I have 3 characters in play on turn one. On your turn, you can play characters, but they all come into play tapped. Now I have a free run at the stories on turn 2 with 3-5 characters that can net me from 6 to 8 success tokens.

Couple this with character removal, tapping, and control cards like Infernal Obsession and I can remove the 1 or 2 characters you played turn 1 and get to ready on turn 2 and again, I have a free run at stories for 6-8 icons. It is a brutally fast start

Throw Endless Interrogation into the mix and if I do not play anything on my second turn I can go to stories with my 3 birds, get 6 success tokens and make you discard 4 cards from hand. Then it is just a matter of controlling the board, which for this deck is not difficult to do.

The combination of Birds, Steps and Interrogation take all of the disadvantage of going first and turn it into a raging engine that obliterates without much thought. It takes what should be a slow-progression and turns it into a tidal wave, making any card that costs 4 or more effectively useless.

Chevee

Right, I understand now, thanks. Sounds like that makes for very fast games. So is the best counter just character control like Shotgun Blast or something else, or location hate, and if so, what are the best options? The three people I play with aren't super competitive... yet. But we play a lot of ccgs, and eventually someone will start scaling the game to competitive levels.

Sadly, the current best way to beat it is to play with it.

Hastur/Agency have the best character removal and if you are going to play Hastur, why would you not include 6 cards in your deck that dramatically influence your win percentage? There was a deck at Worlds that claimed 90% win percentage over this deck, but it lost to this deck and has terrible matchups against anything else.

In general, this game favors speed. Playing small characters and rushing to 15 tokens will win you more than you lose against decks trying to play lots of 3+ cost cards. Control is also very important. Character removal in all forms is a necessity, but with that you have to know how to play it.

The best part about Tom's deck is that while he ran Seventy Steps, he rarely played it. With Birds, Dogs, Servants, Rats and a slew of other 2 cost characters, he was able to out-rush while maintaining board control.

Chevee

Magnus Arcanis said:

Ah, yes. But is it the best deck when it is clearly unbalanced? Or is the best deck simply one that wins with good, but balanced cards. *cough* (like mine)

Seriously though, best deckbuilder? I'd have to give that to Ron. He consistently put together the best deck(s) of the year. He was the driving force behind the Lock deck and Jump Tech. On top of that, he built two of the best mono-Syndicate decks I ever saw (with different but equally devastating win conditions), and in the first year his decks one two of the four regionals in the US, and were clearly the best in the field until Rainbow came around. I don't know who exactly in PA discovered rainbow, but I know everybody played it.

cannon said:

1st - Good to see you're still alive C.

2nd - Well, I took best meaning to believe what won, and how far was it above the rest of the field. Which is a completicated question. Looking at all the championship decks (or from what I can remember)... Rainbow had the estate decks to compete with. The lock deck had jump tech and yours and jim's (not that I knew exactly what was being played during that time period so please correct me if I'm wrong) decks weren't THAT far above the rest of the field by comparison to the other decks. By the same token both of mine didn't seem that far off (especially the first) either. The current one does seem rather broken, but certainly doesn't have nearly the spread nor feel of previous game breaking decks despite it's lack of competition.

So... hmm... Though honestly in shear terms of power I'd still give it to Rainbow. That thing was just a beast, only way to win was to catch it with its domains drained out and auto win with a combo. Everything else didn't seem to stand a chance. At least you could slow down the lock deck with commonly used removal cards. But rainbow... no chance and the chance that combo decks had was super small.

3rd - Best deck builder? I'd like to think I was starting to catch up, but ya Ron wins hands down. Jump, The syndicate decks, his control decks, investigators, co-ing on the lock and rainbow (though he deserves most of the credit there as well). Though, I can't quite remember who it was that started rainbow. I think it was Greg. Greg saw a concept build from some other country, tuned it up a bit and brought it here. Then Ron and others took it to a whole nother level. Can't be too sure, I didn't really enter the picture until after it was pretty much completed and my only change was to add breeding pit which I think was the only one that ran that addition so.. meh.

Not the worst deck I've seen recently. I don't understand the usa meta game. It's a good deck, I agree with that. But it' easy to predict, and it doesn't stand a chance turn 3, but there are some cards to counter rush games now and I don't understand why the participants didn't predict this archetype of deck.

The guy who said he had the Italian deck that beats it 80% of the time did not fare well at the tournament. I'm not sure what counter rush cards you are referencing that can stop this... perhaps you could clarify your thoughts?

This deck sometimes wins on turn 3, so that's a bit late to respond.

B_P said:

Oh, it was predicted. Problem was, beating it wasn't a garuntee (could get close to, but not a garuntee), and it quite often made you weaker against other decks.

At least that was my problem. I could beat my own deck fairly consistantly, but against a deck with more stabily for a long game was my anti-Hatsur/Agency too often came up short.

As for the deck not standing a chance after turn 3... I wouldn't go that far. Granted, its not well suited for a long drug out game, but, at least with my version, it was never going to get to a long game. The flood is simply to great.

As for counter rush cards... based on the card pool at the time of Worlds (the spoken covenent wasn't legal yet) there were very few anti-rush cards that were viable enough to see play. Those that were, were used and they still weren't enough. It kinda comes down to... if at the end of my second turn, you have no cards in hand, 0-2 characters in play while I have 4-10, and 0-4 cards in hand and I have at least 2 tokens at 1-3 stories. My turn 3 isn't looking so bad at that point.

Sure, you could argue qaulity over quantitiy, but when the numbers are that vastly different... quantity wins. At least thats the way things worked this year. Past years were a bit different. '08 was about achieving victory as early as possible, '09 was more about timing your big moves, '10 was all about card advantage.

How can I explain what I have in my mind? (my English is, at best, approximative)

Dogs don't love terror icons. Don't have arcane icons, so when they attack, they can't defend and they don't have any toughness. (what a revelation you are thinking.. and you are right). So, little cultists characters is the best option to defend the 2 first turns and mass killing. Or, Full agency day, they're worst than the dogs with combat icons.

Flood is not efficient in cthulhu lcg. The opponent can block you with 3 characters if they're big enough. And, eibon excepted, you don't have any investigation icon. And the setting sun is everywhere. So, you hardly gain tokens in mid game. (I insist : in mid game).

70 steps is an awesome support card. Political demonstration, burrowing beneath, deep one assault, torch the joint, agency groundkeeper (in mid game), crazy arsonist (with this one, it doesn't matter if it comes exhausted), make your choice. You'll have the same chances to have one of these in your hand thant the opponent to have 70 steps in his.

The 70 steps player has to begin. 50% chances to NOT begin. And with the tests I humbly made in my batcave, (Shhhhh! says Sheldon) it becomes really harsh for the 70 steps player if the opponent is a defensive player. (I'm not a defensive player, but I learnt to be one when it is necessary).

Endless interrogation is a pain in the ass but, cards in cemeterry are not lost for ever for every one. Yog sottoth is your friend! (i'm not kidding, yog sottoth is a competitive faction, try it, adopt it!)

And finally, my secret weapon : the strip tease girl next to your opponent. 100 % chances of win! The hardest part is to not look either.

There are possibilities. A lot. But, whatever the deck, if the opponent is a great player, you just will have a hard time.

I forgot : cathouse is your friend against 70 steps too.

All very good points.... however...

Terror- Speaking through only my version of course, I'm not without terror icons via Victoria and Servant from Out of Time. Granted, they will have not saved me all the time, but it certainly helps. Also, quantity helps here as well. I have no problem letting a guy go insane if I can still win combat and skill.

Arcane- Dogs not defending isn't a big deal. I want my opponent to commit so there is less to block me on my next turn (unless of course he is going to steal a story of course). Besides, Victoria, Furtive Zoog, and Descendant of Eibon provide all the books I need. Its not all about the dogs.

Investigation Icons- Sure, not having them aside from Eibon means a slower win, but steadier win. Parallel Universe helps here as well. And when using more of a flood strategy I quite often have the most skill to make use of PU.

Mid game - Being harder to gain success tokens is true. However, by the mid game having several won stories or at the very least, a lot of success tokens spread throughout the board. Which forces the opponent into a defensive position. So odds are all I have to do is win skill to keep plunking away. Big guys with books are a problem (espeically ravager) and can put a lot of pressure on me to either leave some defense or over-commit. However, that is what my removal, Parallel Universe, Guardian Pillar, and Infernal Obession are for. When timed correctly can often leave enough openings to gain the few success tokens I should need to pull it out.

The Seventy Steps - This card is not a crutch for me. Its more of an enabler. If I have it, great I have a better chance of winning. If I don't, oh well I'll have some other more relevant card. As for the removal. Policital Demonstration is hard early when you have to not only attack, but win by 2 icons. Burrowing Beneath and Torch the Joint are fine, but force you to use your large domain on getting rid of a non-character so it still is buying me a turn as most 1 cost characters can be easily handled. Arsonist is ok if I don't have removal for protection, but Groundskeeper I found in testing to be just a turn to slow for it to be effective in all situations.

Going First - Going first is simply an ideal situation and it is not mandatory. Granted, my opening strategy is somewhat different if I'm going second. I give much higher priority to cards like Diseased Sewer Rats, Victoria, and my agency removal so I can clear as much board as I can for the other characters I play that turn unless my opponent has 3 or less cards in their hand of course. Going second usually means I will be sacraficing more of my resources also. Furtive Zoog and Servant are key for getting at their hand with E. Interrogation on my first turn. Which stinks, but I've been able to win games with only 1 resource thanks to the incredibly low cost of the deck.

Flood Efficency - I agree to an extent that its not as good as having some better quality characters in play. However, for this deck and the strategy that it imploys.. it is efficent (at getting wins). The problem with having a ton of anti cards is that yes, they do remove individual problems, but it doesn't deal with the whole picture (against this type of strategy). Its kind of like if a swarm of some deadly thing was running after you to devour you. Sure, you have shot gun, a grenade, and sword but that will work only against so many the rest will still get you.

Yog Recursion - I love Yog. I really really do. If things change enough in its favor I could almost predict it to take worlds next year. I even used it in combination with Agency to take home the Highlander trophy. However, its is a simple case of you using your large domain to recurr cards that only annoy me or you can't use until your next turn. And in a game where the first few turns are absolutely critical... Yog recursion just isn't fast enough to rely on against the deck.

Strip Tease Girl - I like this strategy... lol

Thanks all of you for this great thread (and the other deck posts. Great addition to the forums.

I totally follow B_P's mind on this.

There were posts on the board where we shared the results of the previous french nationals, tingling the alarm about Birds/steps/GPillar/endless ... But I do feel like mosts of the players did prefers to abuse this deckbuild instead of choosing to integrate other cards to stop the opposite deck.

I won't blame them to choose this, as this was a championship tournament, but I hope the futur extension will bring new possibilities.

Concerning the original topic, I don't feel like the actual HAstur proeminency reach the same level the jump tech did. I did play Graham and Carioz at Stahleck Castle and they reached such a magnificient level of metagaming I was amazed ! I don't feel like Birdo's are this powerfull, as you can block them with Cthulhu and Shubb right now. I just miss a good old "Called to the Sea" ...

Just some things I'm interested in.

Wouldn't cards like Performance Artist (to stop the birds), Patsy (to remove tokens), Hard Case (to exhaust back), Panic (mass exhaustion), Get on Yer Feet! (surprise surprise) and the like slow this type of deck enough to bring it into mid-game, where it wouldn't shine so much?

That's just theorycrafting here, but still...

Manit0u said:

Yes, if you get to go first, all of these things would help.

If you go second not so much.

The problem with things like Hard Case is that I'm not going to have anyone un-exhausted on your turn. The deck does not care if you go to a story unopposed as it is faster than you. Overall, the issue against using soft removal (non-killing stuff: tap, return, etc) against this deck is that it is more costly for you to tap my guys than it is for me to play new ones.

Chevee