mac40k said:

I assume you're not talking about me here, but just to be clear: I'm not complaining about new options, and I've defended this new line on RPG geek against people complaining about getting extra options. My complaints are and have always been about the unnecessarily restrictive player limit in WFRP. Groups with more than 3 players are not uncommon (most of my groups tend to be 6 + GM), and restricting it to less is not so much unreasonable, as completely unnecessary.

When these new products were announced, it appeared to me that FFG had listened and provided an affordable way to get all the bits from the core set without all the books and other stuff you only need one of. I was extremely happy about this, and ready to order the Player's Vault the moment it came out. Now it turns out it's just an upgraded Adventurer's Toolkit. Probably still better than the AT, but still prohibitively expensive as a way to add more than one player to your game. Useless to me, and I honestly have trouble seeing what kind of niche this product fills. It provides stuff you already have in an uneconomical way. I just don't see the point, whereas a really small change would have made it incredibly useful to every large RPG group out there.

mac40k said:

Do you really not think it's weird that such a gorgeous, high quality product requires fans to improvise in order to play the game? We get cuddled in all sorts of ways, beautiful expansions and adventures every few months, and even simple product announcements come in a beautiful document with lots of custom prose and art, and yet this one aspect is consistently ignored. A simple product announcement gets more attention from FFG than every single above-average sized RPG group. Next to the quality of the rulebook, the limit on group size is probably the most common and most justified complaint against WFRP3. Fixing the rulebook is not easy, but it looks like FFG is going to do that, yet the one that's easiest to fix (an affordable set of just action cards, especially basic actions) isn't.

Of course I've already printed my own basic action cards with Strange Aeons, but why the hell is that even necessary? I'm not talking about new actions and careers, I just want to play the basic game with a few more players. Nothing outlandish. Why is FFG, that puts so much effort into every other aspect of the game, not interested in accommodating larger groups of players?

mac40k said:

Me too. But more than that, I'd like to see FFG produce the stuff that players need and attract more players, so that WFRP will become incredibly successful. Unnecessary barriers to play the game aren't helping here. I'm enough of a WFRP fan to buy it all anyway, but for a lot of groups, max 3 players is going to be enough to turn them away. And there's just no good reason for that. It's really easy to fix, and this was a perfect opportunity. Still is, in fact. I hope FFG is listening.

It's crazy how FFG gives us options, and people start screaming bloody murder when one of the options doesn't suit them.

Doesn't sound like I'll need a Player's Vault either, but instead of complaining I'm just not going to buy it.

... that said, if the PV is the only way I can get the errata'ed cards then I will be a sad panda.

dvang wrote:

The PV is meant to allow an individual player to have his own materials to make his own characters. The PV is not, and should not be, a GROUP product.

That is true and you did a very good and thorough job of making the difference clear

I guess the main gripe with the Player’s Vault is exactly that: it addresses a single player more than a group.

I can understand that this falls short of what many people expected for such a product. As far as I have read this forum before the GenCon announcements, such a group product was one of the most requested products – in contrast I cannot remember a single posting where an individual expressed the wish to have all the cards to study and to caress while s/he is away from his group (even though I can certainly think of myself as wishing to be able to do just that if I were a player without a Core Set).

That means that with the Player’s Vault FFG has published a product that is certainly nice to have for an individual player and it is a product that alleviates the lack of basic actions cards for groups with more than three players. But it does not address the wish that has been expressed very often in this forum:

• Please publish a product that makes it easy and as inexpensive as possible for me to add several players. (I think 3 additional has been kind of an implicit consensus here.) Such a set would include basic action cards and dice, its main goal would be to avoid having to buy another expensive Core Set with a lot of stuff that is not needed in two copies.

I can understand that this causes some disappointment. A “Party Vault” has been heavily requested, but we’re getting a Player’s Vault. Since the Player’s Vault alleviates the pressure faced by larger groups to some degree, this certainly isn’t completely bad, but a tad disappointing. (That is, I cannot empathize much with being “angry” about this or even feeling personally betrayed. I also think that mcv does not complain in that sense.)

Other than that, my personal feeling is pretty much the same as mac40k’s.

ozean said:

That's exactly it. To me, WFRP is a group game. I need my own private cards to play with about as much as I need my own set of roads and villages for Settles of Catan. And if I do want to use my own personal standup, I'll make sure it's a nicely painted mini, rather than an exact copy of a standup that someone else is using.

(Ignore my complaints about the duplicate standups if the PV will contain different standups than the core set. More variety in standups would be really cool, and more female and dwarf figures might tempt me to buy it anyway.)

ozean said:

I must admit that when I was in school, I did create quite a lot of characters for GURPS and WFRP1 that never got used in an actual game. My teenager self might have appreciated the Player's Vault for that reason (though would probably have bought a Player's Guide instead, since I believe it contains the same information, just not on cards).

ozean said:

I don't intend to. I'm just disappointed at this missed opportunity, and still hope FFG listens and adds additional basic action cards. There's still plenty of time before the PV will be shipped to the stores, right?

mcv, you obviously have a different gaming experience than I do. Throughout my 25+ years of roleplaying, I'd say that at least 3/4 of the players in every gaming group I was in had their own copy of the "player guide" for the game, or if there was not a separate players guide they had the "rulebook". This includes RPG groups that include Basic D&D, AD&D, Shadowrun, CoC, WFRP1 & WFRP2, D&D 3.0, V:TM, and Cyberpunk. Lots of people like to plan their character development, or like to spend their experience points/advances on their own time, rather than before/during/after a game session. Without a players guide (or vault in this case), a player may only alter their character at the normal game session or borrow stuff.

So, obviously, based on my personal experience, I see this product as a worthwhile investment for most players. Obviously, your experience has been different and most players you've played with don't want their own stuff and groups don't mind extra time before/after a session to level/advance characters.

I think that what would be better is not to place a fault the PV itself. The PV is a worthwhile product. I think ozean hit it on the head, that perhaps a new, smaller product is called for as well. Something that can expand the characters without the extra bits and is relatively inexpensive. A package, for example, that has a set of dice, a couple character sheets, and a couple sets of basic action cards. We know FFG is listening to fan input. Rather than think of the PV as a missed opportunity (because it actually fills the role it is designed for very well), instead, suggest that there is still a missing product that there is a need for. It is possible that FFG can find the ability to add this product to the line.

I think that is the way to go, rather than bashing or implying that the current PV is useless. I certainly would be behind an addition of the suggested new product, as I can see the use for it to do exactly what mcv and ozean suggest/desire. It will allow the addition of multiple players, if the players don''t want/need the extra non-basic cards or standups.

mac40k said:

This is the part I don't understand; how is the Core Set still a worthwhile product? It's missing all of the material from the supplements, which the Guides and Vaults are apparently not, and buying the Core + Supplements is far more expensive than just buying the Guides and Vaults. There's also the fact that a new group is going to need the rules clearly explained and organized, so why would they want the mess that is the rulebook in the Core Set when the Guides will be laid out much more clearly?

As far as the "PV only adds one player" discussion, I like that it only adds one player but I am biased by my gaming experiences. In my time as a gamer (since the late 80's) the typical pattern has been that I buy all the game books and my players use them. Just once I would have liked to see one of my players buy a copy of the rulebook, not only to make it easier for everyone to reference a book at the table, but as a show of appreciation, like "Hey, thanks for investing a bunch of money and time into running this game for me, the least I can do is invest a few bucks into the game to make it better for everyone and easier on you." It gets tiring to announce that I'm running a game a month in advance, yet still have to walk everyone through character creation the day we're supposed to be playing because nobody could be bothered to grab a book and make a character. This new FFG model might give lazy/cheap players an incentive to buy in and make everyone else's life easier.

RabidWookie said:

It has all the materials, in one product, that would require the purchase of multiple products (all the guides and vaults).

It also has 2 more sets of Basic Action cards and more dice.

The supplements have adventures in them (which are excellent IMO), that the group would be missing out on.

There is nothing that says you must have everything. For the price, the Core Set provides all the materials for GM+3 to comfortably play (no sharing), at a cheaper price than buying GMG+GMV+PG+PV(x3)+CG+CV. Sure, buying all the Guides and Vaults will end up with a more comprehensive amount of careers and creatures than just buying the Core Set ... but it's more expensive than buying just the Core Set too, and you *would* need to buy all the guides+vaults (multiples of the PV) in order to play GM+3 players. So, the Core Set is still a good value for what it provides.

There is nothing saying that FFG won't be updating the rulebooks in the Core Set in later printings (ie fixing issues and errata), so we don't know that the Core Set rules will remain as murky as they are in the future.

For me, personally, I'm not sure that the GMG or the PG are particularly necessary to acqurie. They'll be my last purchases, since I already have all the information I need from the Core Box books and WoM/SoF.

dvang said:

You're right, but why should a group buy a product that they can't reasonably expand on? For example, if a group samples the game by buying the Core Set, and they decide they want more, the path to fleshing out the Core Set is far more expensive than just buying the Guides and Vaults, which they could have done in the first place. I've got everything released for the game so far, and if I stick with it I'd definitely want the hardcovers ASAP just to have clear explanations of the rules and references for all the cards (which would enable me to take them out of the giant 3-ring binder they currently occupy).

My point is, while the core set might be a relatively inexpensive way to get a taste of WFRP3, I don't see how it could be recommended as the best way to get a new group into the game since it's purchase wouldn't count towards completing the set (unless they want to spend more money than they otherwise would have by buying the supplements).

RabidWookie said:

I think you misinterpreted what he was saying. Buying the Guides and Vaults gets you more material than just the Core on its own, but is more expensive (which is what I believe he was saying). However it does not get you more than the Core + supplements (WoM, SoF etc). It's cheaper than getting the core and all the supplements, but you're missing out on a lot of material.

Right, what macd21 said.

For a GM + 3 players to play you could buy either:

1) Core Set

2) CG+CV+GMG+GMV+PG+PVx3

Now, granted, there is more stuff when buying #2, buy you're paying a heck of a lot more. Then again, adding the Supplements to the Core Set gives you more stuff than option #2, but costs more. Of course, you can always mix and match. Core Set + CG + CV + GMG is a good combination. You get the expanded creatures and the GMG for the disease and corruption rules. You're missing out on the adventures, though. So, maybe Core Set + CG + CV + WoM + SoF. Hmm, nice. The combinations are numerous, depending on what you want. The fact is, though, the Core Set is not useless nor obsolete, and it CAN be expanded on.Really, the only 2 products that are a bit less useful if you've bought the Core Set are the GM's Guide and the Player's Guide. Those products are mostly rewrites, with only a few new tidbits such as examples and percentile charts. Otherwise, everything else is useful to add to the Core Set.

As a possible solution (call me crazy) you could go another route.

Currently on the website there is a very nice PDF copy of the character sheet. To produce a sheet I print out one page and flip it over for the second so I can fold the paper in half (or you can print out two if you like). So additional character sheets are a matter of printing.

My personal recommendation is for FF to simply provide a pdf with two pages of 'basic actions' printed. Since I'm planning to put some cheap clear sleeves on the actions anyway (the cards) you can easily print out this pdf, cut out the appropriately sized cards, and slip them back to back into a sleeve for a front (red) and back (green). That way adding additional players is easy, quick, official (and FF can take credit for providing such an option) that allows for fast expansion of playerbase and nullifies a problem that I myself noticed when questioning Jay about group design at the FF booth.

My personal group is 5-6 players, and I agree with the gentleman who mentioned a need for extra basic actions. However this solution would cost FF virtually nothing, and would provide nice high quality pdf's for us to use (I'll have to check out the aforementioned Strange Aeons). If they don't, I'm sure I can use my handy dandy at-home scanner to provide much the same results, but I'd like to see a move like this to both appease the playerbase, and provide an official easy solution to the less tech-savy non-forum-reading peeps.

This would eliminate the need for a 'new product' suggested that carries sheets and cards with dice, while still validating and providing for the complaints that I see here and I myself share.

RabidWookie said:

I prefer making characters together. That way you get a real group, instead of just a bunch of random people. (Well, it doesn't always work out like that...)

I like how Diaspora does it. The first session is reserved for creating the setting and the characters. They're considered part of play. I like character-driven play, and I think this is the only way to really accomplish that.

Well you also have to remember what kind of game this is and was in the past, dealing with classical fantasy archetypes, and warhammer is about as classical as fantasy gets. There is no shame in conforming your character to the group to make it easier to actually play the game, especially if your game master put a lot of effort into the scenario that your playing, no need to enter everyone who cracks a short joke into the book of grudges when your playing a dwarf. But you get a fair few players who have their characters behave badly because its "realistic" and realism should be avoided in games like this, I mean there are elves and you can sprout a tentacle randomly

dvang said:

We clearly have very different experiences. In my 25+ years of roleplaying, I've played with very different groups, and yet I don't think there's ever been more than 50% of the players that owned the basic rulebook of the same system. The group from my teenager years played mostly WFRP, and only the GM had the basic rules. One other player occasionally bought something, and immediately handed it over to the GM to use. I was the only one crazy enough to mess with creating extra characters outside play, and photocopied the character creation rules from the rulebook.

My main university group had several experienced roleplayers that had all invested in GURPS, so 3 out of 6 players owned the GURPS basic book, but mostly we played other stuff. I ran some WFRP (and finally bought the rulebook), another guy ran a huge Earthdawn campaign that ran for so long that eventually two players bought their own copy of the rulebook, but that's still only 50%. We played various editions of Shadowrun, and I think one player has the 2nd edition rulebook, another has the 3rd edition book, and two people have the 4th edition. Two people own CORPS. Two people own D&D4. One or two people own D&D3.5. Two people own CoC. One player owns Paranoia. We've got a whole bunch of other systems, but it's pretty rare that more than 1 person owns the basic rulebook. Even with free games like Dogs in the Vineyard or 3:16, only one player actually has a copy of the rules, because only one player needs it. It was no different with other groups I played with at the time. It's always the GM who knows the rules, and the players just need to play.

I recently joined a new group. This time it's D&D3.5. Not my favourite, but I just wanted a second RPG group, and I've got a lot of faith in the GM. Still, only the GM and one other player own a copy of the rules. D&D is clearly a game that requires more planning in character creation than most other games, so the online SRD helps a bit, but we don't need a complete copy of the rules for every player.

For WFRP 3 too, the only thing I'd really need to plan my character in advance, is a table with all the cards. Not an actual copy of all the cards and a bunch of standups. In fact, the character creation tables and skill descriptions from the rulebook would be more useful to me, so if anything, I'd buy a Player's Guide, not a Player's Vault.

UncleArkie said:

Warhammer classical fantasy? I think most people would consider D&D classical fantasy, or maybe Lord of the Rings. WFRP is darker, grittier, more urban, with a clear horror element. We're not heroes who go off to slay dragons, we're students and coachmen who get intimidated by a group of lowly thugs hired by some merchant who doesn't like what we're up to. Not very classical at all.

@ mcv:

Sure, the Player's Guide works for what you want too. Although, it then requires you to have to write down or record your stuff, since you won't have the cards. My players (and I) like using the cards. So, more likely, my players will buy the PV rather than the PG (or possibly both if they really wanted I suppose). The point is that there is an option for either to get the same result, which is the intent with the PG and PV.

As for the Core Set + expansions vs. PG/PV + GMG/GMV argument, people seem to keep forgetting that the Core Set has all the dice a group of 4 need to be able to play. Although it does require sharing from a common pool, 3 players + GM should be able to sit close enough together than sharing is possible. Groups going with option two still have to account for almost $50 just in dice.

I stand corrected and was mistaken/corrected by Jay in another thread. Sorry if I confused or alarmed anyone. To clarify:

The PV contains all the PC oriented materials from the Core Set, including 3 sets of basic action cards.

The PG contains the careers, action cards, and talents from the supplements (WoM, SoF, etc) but the PV does not contain the components from those supplements (not even action cards or talents).

So there you go mcv.

dvang said:

It's good to see that I was right and in the Players Vault we will get 3 sets of basic action cards.

mcv said:

What is 'classical' fantasy? Warhammer has more in common with a lot of the older fantasy novels than D&D (which has strayed far from its roots) these days. Dark, gritty, urban, horror - these can all be found in 'classical' fantasy novels.

this is per day, so encounter or storymode put aside. You need a full nights rest before you can redo this. This is because healing is supposed to be hard, and otherwise a healer priest can spam heal anything and everything back to full health in less than a days work. Which is completely unrealistic in the warhammer universe

That's some serious necromancy!

Neat spell though. It was nice to check the first post and see they actually have been planing things in a long run.