dvang said:

Is there any reason to buy Signs of Faith then, if you don't care about adventures and fluff and you're already getting the hardcover books and Vaults?

Hey, dvang, there is no hurry. Take your time prepairing the review, but you know... we're waiting

And yea, some pictures would be nice.

dvang said:

DANCE FOR US MONKEY! DANCE!

Seriously though, thanks for all the spoilage.

RabidWookie said:

Career cards

dvang said:

Yes please, pictures would be awsome if possible

Yeah, it was said in a post by CP himself in a reply to my comment that the Creature Guide would be "95% new." I really hope that's the case. It's on the very first page of the "Sifting Through Shadows" post:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp

That helped me to warm up to the idea a little, though I still feel like the really interesting expansions of 2011 have been pushed back due to these hardcover releases. I also am so completely sold on the card/bits format, that transferring everything to charts and percentages just seems like a bad direction away from a great system. Having both options just makes the direction of the game a but murky.

But again, if this brings more players into the fold, it may be worth diluting the brand a bit.

-Feriluce

dvang said:

One additional player? Isn't the Player's Vault something like $40? If that let's me add only a single player, it's even worse value than the Adventurer's Toolkit. For $40, I was actually expecting all the player related stuff from the Core Set: enough to add 3 additional players.

Thanks for identifying where...

Ok, so what he said was: "The creature release is 95% new content, and 100% new tools."

Is he talking about the CG or the CV, or both when he says "the creature release"? I assume both together.

Of course, we don't know the number of creatures introduced in the CG, other than the slide said "dozens". It is quite possible that the CG more than doubles the number of current creatures available. Do the creature cards in the Vault count as new tools, new content, or both? The information on the creature cards is not new, except for cards for the new creatures in the CG. Of course, since the creature cards are themselves "new tools", are they in and of themselves also being considered "new content"? Does CP include the creature action cards as both "new content" and "new tools"? They have a new side for each card (the creature's non-default), so I would guess they do. So, between these, if the number of new creatures in the CG for example doubles the existing amount of creatures, and they count the creature and action cards in the CV as new content too (which, I suppose it technically is), then yes, you're getting quite a bit of 'new content' with the CG and CV, possibly even enough to consider it a rough 95%. If CP's percentages are right, that would mean that there are a lot of new creatures being introduced with the CG+CV.

For example, (purely hypothetical) say there are 20 creatures from the Core Set and supplements. Say there are 20 new creatures added in the CG (total of 40 creatures in CG). That's 20 new entries in the CG, plus 20 new creature cards in the CV plus 40 new creature action cards in the CV.

20 vs 80 = 20% old content, 80% new content. (100% new tools, of course, as all of the items in the CV are new.) Not counting the creature group cards and standups, which would skew the results more towards the new content.

Anyway, my point is we don't know exactly what criteria CP is using the determine "new content". It does, however, make me think that the CG and CV have more new creatures in it than I originally thought.

@mcv

One player, but you get a copy of every action card and every talent card currently available, as well as (I believe) every PC standup, stance pieces, fatigue/stress tokens, etc. I mainly say "one player", because I believe it only has a single copy of the basic action cards. The PV makes a great complement to the game by providing additional action and talent cards. You don't necessarily need to purchase one per player, but it is a great resource for a player to pick up if they want their own cards to use for their character. Seems to be well worth the $40 for all that stuff.

Do you know how big the creature cards will be, are they the same size as the party/career/nemesis sheets?

Scratch that, just looked at the picture again and they are not shaped like those sheets. They appear to be the size of Action cards, or at least card shaped. Any thoughts?

Amani said:

I would like that the creature cards would be as big as the party sheet and not like action cards. But when I look at the picks and the box I think there are going to be like action cards.

mcv said:

I think for $40 you get all the player related stuff from the core set for one player, alone with the player related stuff from WoM and SoF. This includes action cards, careers, talents etc, including all the spells for all the faiths and orders. Probably includes most of the stuff from the Adventurer's Toolkit.

ffgfan said:

I first also thought that the creature cards would be larger – but I guess if they would have made them larger, then we would have ended up with one Beastmen card instead of one Ungor, one Gor and one Wargor card, all of them with individual artwork on the back… so I guess I can live with the different concept even though it is not what I expected.

ozean said:

This is exactly what they are doing. If you look at the photos you can see the Greenskin 'party sheet'. You get a big sheet for the broad type of creature (eg. Beastman), and then smaller Action-sized cards for the particular type (eg. ungor, gor, wargor, etc)

True!

Great info! I cant wait to get the % chart table for wounds and so forth.

Thanks from France, Dvang. I really enjoyed reading your report with pictures. My players can't wait for those supplements now

dvang said:

If that's true, it has to absolutely the worst decision ever in FFG's handling of WFRP3. How much trouble is it to include 3 sets of basic action cards? The lack of basic action cards is really the only thing that's preventing groups from playing with their full number of people. They could have put 16 extra cards in it and claimed WFRP supported up to 5 players, instead of being limited to only 3. And now it looks like the Player's Vault gives you a whole pile of crap you won't need, and is unreasonably stingy in providing the things people do need: adding more players without costing an arm and a leg.

dvang said:

If you want to demand that new players invest $40 before trying a new game, yes. But who ever does that? What player needs dozens of standups (that are all the wrong race and gender), talent cards and advanced actions that he's never going to use? For an entire group, two of each would be plenty. But you do need a full set of basic action cards for every player.

A box that gives you a duplicate of everything in the core set would be great. A box that gives you everything except the basic action cards is a useless waste of money.

@mcv:
How much trouble is it to include 3 sets of basic action cards? The lack of basic action cards is really the only thing that's preventing groups from playing with their full number of people

Not necessarily a lot ... but why would a single player need or want 3 copies of the basic action cards? He can only ever need/use one of them.

What player needs dozens of standups (that are all the wrong race and gender), talent cards and advanced actions that he's never going to use?

The point is that he COULD use them. He has all the materials to make whatever type of character that he want. If his current PC dies, he can make a new one and can use a different standup, and has all the talent and action cards to make a new one. Keep in mind that some people don't use the standup that matches their career card, so take one that looks more like they envision their own PC. Providing a number of PC standups to a player gives them a choice of standups to use. What would be silly is making a player pay for 3 copies of the same card, like basic action cards, when he can only ever use one copy.

A box that gives you a duplicate of everything in the core set would be great. A box that gives you everything except the basic action cards is a useless waste of money.

Umm ... a box that gives you everything in the core set is silly, sorry. I think you need more coffee. If you want what is in the Core Set, just buy the core set.

You're really off the mark here mcv. The PV is for a single player to have all (or most) of the materials needed to make whatever character they want. They'll get their own copies of all the action cards, talent cards, and standups to choose from. Thus, before a campaign starts they've got the stuff to make whatever PC they want/roll/is needed. When their current PC dies, they've got the materials to make a new PC that is completely different. All without having to pay for a Core Set, and without paying for duplicates of cards that they can't use (like buying 3 sets of basic action cards).

dvang said:

Is he going to play WFRP on his own? Isn't WFRP intended to be played by a group? What use is it to cater to a single player? Do you own your own Monopoly pawn? Your own Advanced Civlization card and tokens?

dvang said:

And what's he going to do with it? The point is to play WFRP with friends. Either one of them already has the full set of standups in the Core Set, or nobody does, and you look kinda silly having only one of everything.

dvang said:

So all players can use identical standups and nobody knows who's who? Really useful.

dvang said:

No, what would be silly is making a group pay for 4 copies of each card and each standup, when they're going to use probably no more than two of each card (other than the basic action cards), and no more than one of each standup (otherwise how are you going to tell characters apart?). More variety in standups would be good. More of the same is extremely useless. The Player's Vault should be a box that each group would love to have 1 of, rather than something that would waste each individual player's money.

dvang said:

You mean the box that costs $100 and contains lots of stuff I don't need two of? Why would I want to pay for a second Tome of Adventure? A second Tome of Blessings? I want a box that contains only the stuff I need more of, and if the Player's Vault contained multiple sets of basic actions, that would have been it.

dvang said:

How are you going to play a campaign without the Core Set? Is everybody else playing the Lite version, while you're sitting there with all your private bits? Does every player who wants to play have to shell out $40? Add a handful of cards, and the PV would have been awesome. Now it's completely useless.

FFG surprised me by doing what I thought they wouldn't do, reprinting the rules to incorporate the errata/FAQ, print the card text in full and offering a variant character sheet and some tables for wounds/etc. in books to allow those that want to play without bits to do so, and printing all the creatures and their special actions on cards as many have asked for. What doesn't surprise me is that rather than be thankful, many people seem to want to find reasons to complain. Either they are complaining about having to rebuy material they've already paid for (you don't), that chitless players get a break on costs, or that the specific mix of products that FFG has decided to release isn't exactly what they would have done if they were in charge of design. Seriously, should FFG just go into business creating custom crafted editions that meet each individual's exact specifications? I'd like the creature book in a 3-ring binder, so I can take individual sheets out for use at the table without having to photocopy them or having to pay extra for the CV to get the same information on cards. Shame on FFG for not giving me the product in exactly the format that I would have preferred.

The game isn't changing. It will play exactly the same. If a new group wants to get into WFRP, the Core Set is still the best way to go. If you have more than 3 players you can do what we've always done; share basic action cards, copy them yourself, or buy the AT. In addition to this, if a player wants their own copy of all the cards, they can get the PV. Or they can just use the PG and reference the appropriate text out of the book. Or make photocopy of the basic action text from the book. More options than before. How is this a bad thing? They could have released the contents of the PV with 3 sets of basic action cards and one of everything else and called it s a party expansion box. That might have worked for a few people. Some groups might have only 4 or 5 players, so extra sets of basic action cards would go to waste, while others might have 7 or 8 and would need a third party expansion box just to have enough. Meanwhile, some groups like limiting the non-basic actions to drive variety. Other groups don't mind if everyone takes the same actions, so two or three sets of all the other cards will either either be more or less than desired. So what's the right mix? FFG simply can't give everyone the exact mix of cards that is right for their group and still produce mass market products. Heck, my character doesn't have a shield so Block is a waste of cardstock AFAIC. Why don't they just sell all the action cards individually so everyone can buy just the exact ones they need for their character? What a SKU nightmare that would be.

Some people seem worried about mixed games. I don't see it being a problem. The so-called "lite" version isn't going to change the mechanics, just give people alternatives for tracking things that currently require tokens and provide tables that allow you to use percentile dice to randomize results that are currently handled with card decks like crits, miscasts, etc. A group using the Core set with all the trappings can easily incorporate a new player that only has the PG. So that player has the info about his character on his character sheet or in his book that others have on cards. No big deal. He can be dealt wound cards and use tokens to track recharge from the group supply just like any other player or keep track of stuff using a pencil and a combination of his character sheet and scratch paper. If he gets a crit, hand him the card like you would any other player or he can note it somewhere on his character sheet. If a group is using just the lite rules and a player shows up with the PV, he can play and still use his stuff. He doesn't have to use the new character sheet just because everybody else in the group does (although he might decide to). Instead of referencing a PG, he can pull out his action cards for handy reference. Instead of tracking recharge on paper like the rest of the group, he can use his tokens if he wants. It's all about options and there shouldn't be any schism or stratifying of the player base.

I'm thankful that FFG has responded to one of the biggest complaints and will be offering the rules in a better organized version with more examples. If this attracts more players, that's great. I personally don't need the PG and won't be buying it. Same for the GMG. Our group has been playing now since the Core Set was released and we rarely need to reference the rules during play anyway. Most of all, I'm thankful that FFG has found a way to do this, without filling the release schedule for the next year with these alternatives.They are being released in addition to rather than instead of other products that further expand the game we already have.

I'm thankful that FFG is willing to listen to customers and is producing the CV for all who asked for the monster stats/actions on cards, for those that want them. Those content with the existing format don't have to buy it and depending on how many new creatures are in the CG, may be able to get by without that as well. Those complaining that the cards should have been in the Core Set to begin with and shouldn't have to pay extra for them would have balked at the cost of the Core Set if FFG had gone that way originally, or else they would have had to cut so much else out that if you think the cries of "incomplete" are bad now....

I guess I'm just willing to give thanks that FFG has done well enough with WFRP that they can continue to produce new products and try some different approaches that potentially will attract more players to the game. I also choose to be thankful for what we have and are getting relatively soon rather than complain about what we still don't have (rank 4 spells, Halflings, etc.). Are there some things I wish FFG had done differently? Of course. As I've said in the past, the dice packs offer an odd mix of dice and multiple packs result in too many of some types while leaving you with too few of others. Now that I've bought 4 of them to add to my Core Set dice, I probably have more dice than I'll ever need of all types, but I'd still like to see them alter the mix. If and when they do, I'll be happy for those that have yet to buy them, but I won't lament that they didn't package them this way in the first place before I spent so much money on mine. I'd rather be positive than negative.

I totally agree with mac40K on this one.

Is he going to play WFRP on his own? Isn't WFRP intended to be played by a group? What use is it to cater to a single player? Do you own your own Monopoly pawn? Your own Advanced Civlization card and tokens?

Why do players want their own miniature, or their own Player's Guide book? They want access to see what potential talents and actions they can use, etc. Most players in my DH/RT campaigns have their own copies of the book so they can do just that. ie, when spending experience they don't need to wait until the next game session and borrow someone else's book to do so.

And what's he going to do with it? The point is to play WFRP with friends. Either one of them already has the full set of standups in the Core Set, or nobody does, and you look kinda silly having only one of everything.

He could use them. Of course WFRP is played with friends, and nothing in this prevents that, so I don't know what your point is. Sorry. FFG could either have included no additional standups in the PV, or else include all of them. FFG apparently decided it was better to provide more rather than less in case someone needed them. <shrug>

So all players can use identical standups and nobody knows who's who? Really useful.

It's possible that players could choose the same standup if they wanted. It's easy enough to mark them somehow, like a dab of marker or paint on the base. Chances are slim that the PCs will choose the same standup, but at least with all the standups available, the player can choose which one they want without being limited by the other players.

No, what would be silly is making a group pay for 4 copies of each card and each standup, when they're going to use probably no more than two of each card (other than the basic action cards), and no more than one of each standup (otherwise how are you going to tell characters apart?). More variety in standups would be good. More of the same is extremely useless. The Player's Vault should be a box that each group would love to have 1 of, rather than something that would waste each individual player's money.

4 copies of each card? I assume you mean each player buying they own PV? Well then, each player will have their own set of cards. I don't honestly see how that is bad. As I mentioned in my first response above, it's like each player buying the Player's Guide. They have access to every card available for their PC, and any PC they decide to create. Sure, with a single PC they might only use a dozen or so of the cards. When they make another character, they'll use a different dozen cards. When they go home after the game, they can take their PC with them, cards and all, since all the stuff is THEIRS. The PV is meant to allow an individual player to have his own materials to make his own characters. The PV is not, and should not be, a GROUP product. It is a product for an individual, just like (and I keep repeating this, so hopefully it will sink in) a player buying their own Player's Guide book.The fact is, when they buy the Core Set they are supporting GM+3. So, 4 players could comfortably add a single PV, which would give them your magical "two" copy of each card and one basic card for each of them. Which is EXACTLY what you're suggesting is probably needed. So, the PV actually seems to be perfect for what you're asking for.

You mean the box that costs $100 and contains lots of stuff I don't need two of? Why would I want to pay for a second Tome of Adventure? A second Tome of Blessings? I want a box that contains only the stuff I need more of, and if the Player's Vault contained multiple sets of basic actions, that would have been it.

You asked for a box of stuff that has everything that is in the Core Set. That is the Core Set. The Core Set is designed for GM+3, and has the materials for GM+3. The PV has materials for +1. So, in essence, you don't want a box that gives a duplicate of everything in the Core Set. You misspoke. It's not so hard, as I've mentioned many times earlier in this response, to think that many players will want their own set of cards. The Core Set comes with 3 sets of basic action cards. The Adventurer's toolkit comes with 1 basic set of action cards (barring priest and wizard specific ones), the WoM and SoF comes with the basic versions of their specialty ones. So ... there are plenty of additional Basic action cards available now. Core Set+AT+PV gives 5 sets of Basic action cards (ie 5 players) and 2 copies of each of the other action cards.

How are you going to play a campaign without the Core Set? Is everybody else playing the Lite version, while you're sitting there with all your private bits? Does every player who wants to play have to shell out $40? Add a handful of cards, and the PV would have been awesome. Now it's completely useless.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that they would play without a Core Set (although, with the new Guides and Vaults you *could* play without the Core Set if you bought them all). I was saying that in order to add a single player to a game, and for that player to have their own copy of the player materials, they can now buy the PV instead of their own additional Core Set.

I just don't understand how you cannot see the value of the PV, and the fact that most players DO want their own copy of things for their character, like what the various actions and talents available to them are.

So, Core Set + PV = GM + 4 players, each player having their own Basic Action cards, two copies of each of the talents and action cards, two copies of the standups (also can be useful for NPCs), extra fatigue and tokens, etc. That sounds about perfect, and it's easy enough to buy an AT to add one more set of Basic Action cards, as well as getting the additional careers, etc. if you wanted to expand to 6 without gaining more action cards. Of course, again, I expect most players will want their own copy of the cards now that they are available to them, so I wouldn't be surprised if a couple players per group bought their own PV... meaning you'll be swimming in Basic Action cards as it is (without making them buy 3 per PV)

@Mac40k

Well said, sir!

Deadline247 said:

Me too. Everyone gets what he needs, everyone can play how he wants to - even in the same party, someone can play with the guids only, while the other with all the bits. Nobody's game gets hurt.

Deadline247 said:

Me too. Some people are going to be unhappy no matter what FFG (or Games Workship, or WoTC, or Paizo, etc.) does.