I'd take that bet. If there's not a ban or erratta before the BP after Silent Forge, loser buys the other a copy of the pack and mails it to them?

swingjunkie said:

You're on.

- dut

Sweet! Free pack! I feel like they'll let it run it's course and then fix it with cards like they did rush.

dutpotd said:

Heya. Just shouting out my thoughts from an assistant tournament organizer perspective.

1.) sorry about the high price of Teams. THREE TEAMS showed up each with tickets for themselves as individuals, as I'd heard grumblings that it's Gencon's policy to charge per player (I have no verification that this was true. was busy watching the prizes, games, and covering demos in the exhibit hall). I tried to get the final team something a bit better on Sunday. Hope that helped a touch Brian.

2.) not that I have much sway, but dwarf rangers seems to be a problem. A reprint would be nice to see in a battle-pack with it's response window replaced with 'action', but that won't be until the enemy cycle is done at the earliest (though I suppose just a blanket errata could be applied). Like I said, not that I have any control over that, but I'll try to whisper in someone's ear.

3.) there are tie breakers, they were reserved for top 8 for reasons beyond my knowledge...

Sorry I haven't much info!

Also, yes there were many dwarfs, orcs and empire, but a few dark elves as well. I think top 8 was empire, dwarfs and something else... again they'll have deck lists up. Don't expect them right away. FFG has Tuesday off.

In all though it was a good event, with lots of new players having a good time!

vermillian said:

Quest. Action: deal 1 damage to target unit or capital. You may play this action only after one of your other {dwarf} units enters your discard pile this phase and only once for each of those units.

There's probably a more concise wording there somewhere - but note that it does mean that you can play the action at any point in the phase after one of your dwarves dies.

Clamatius said:

Nah, James doesn't tell me anything, unless the friendly punches he gave me while playing a swiss game against a different bolt thrower was code for something. But it only makes sense that it has seen its day and it did get seen first hand at worlds, that alone is why I think we will see some change made.

- dut

I was one of the top 8 bolt throwers, ended up losing to the champion Tim in the top 8 round. He had to take out all 3 of our team's bolt throwers in a row in the top cuts. His deck was a monster and I congratulate him for taking us all down.

I'll post a full report sometime soon. Thrower needs fixed.

Matt

People at my locals dont troll these forums, so when i showed up with a BT deck and ate them all.. it was a rush. The card is broken, point blank. Only what 2 or 3 solid counters, and 2 of them are big on timing.

Gift of Aenarion / Asuryan's Cleansing / Long Winter

I think what breaks the deck isnt so much the aspect of the bolter itself, but the protection it has, useing Order in chaos to loop gifts is nasty as hell.. aslong as your drawing 3 your golden.

Banlist / rework needed:

Bolt Thrower

Order in Chaos (to op with fog looping)

Ranger (rework plz)

first game i told my friend "playing a new deck i stole off the forums." he said "oh whats it called?" and i responded with "Atomic poopshooting".. sure he loled.. i loled.. but imo.. best way to describe that deck.. it just craps on your waffles.

I think it's probably just down to the Thrower. It lets you convert resources directly into a win at action speed which otherwise you can't do.

Order in Chaos is really good, for sure, but at least you can disrupt that via blowing up their stuff in response to it, etc. And I've been over the Ranger thing already.

that is very true, something like that should atleast be limited to 1

This was my list from worlds:

3-Master Rune of Spite

3-Burn it Down

3-Mining Tunnels

3-Ancestral Tomb

3-Slayers of Karak Kadrin

3-Dwarf Ranger

3-Long Beards

3-Demolition!

2-Great Book of Grudges

3-Innovation

2-Grudge Thrower

3-Stand Your Ground

3-Grudgebearer

3-Dwarf Cannon Crew

3-Contested Village

3-Warpstone Excavation

2-Zhufbar Engineers

2-Zealot Hunter

I'd like to have worked in Order in Chaos to be able to bring back the demos and burn it downs and possibly even a couple of Hammerers of Karak Azul for their toughness against thrower. I pulled the Hammerers at the last minute to put the Zhufbars back in. I wouldnt say that this was totally an error as I used them to kill a King Kazador that had me on the ropes during the swiss rounds and against the Orc deck I played in the last round of swiss.

Personally I think the most powerfull card in the format is probably Mining Tunnels. If I were looking to have anything changed I'd like to see this only work for one mining tunnel each time. Destruction is just too far behind when it comes to resource generation right now (esp chaos), hopefully they will get something to help with that soonish.

It was a great event full of super players, I think that dutpotd's deck was very cool and innovative, I was considering something similar myself but I still had units in mine, I think that his (mostly) unitless version was definitely better and it was a terrific intense battle between us. I also really liked the agro control dwarf deck from the top 8 with the free companies and verenas. I think that guy had only been playing for like a week! Very impressive! Paul was great compition in the finals, slightly sorry that you ended up having to be the 'end boss' instead of me. Everyone I played all tournement was a class act and gave me really tough games, I dont remember a round that was easy.

Mining Tunnels is pretty ridiculously good - *does his "I told you so" dance*. The only thing I got wrong was that it's better than Contested Village - if for some weird reason I had to choose, I'd cut the Villages before Tunnels every time.

Vitamin T said:

If you were the winner, congrats. I built the deck of the guy you were referring to, Gio (big black dude) and yeah, we just taught him how to play the game. I wanted him to have something a bit different so at the last minute I went with extra Scouts (to face down potential BT match-ups and help in the mirror vs. other Dwarves and the Free Companies for giving him some extra delay time against Orc/Skaven, and finally Verena for a few shock wins. Seems like it worked well for him.

I don't mean to take anything away from Dutpotd but your deck build is nearly the same as mine. I don't see it as terribly different from most Dwarf builds, though, honestly...you surely just played it really well. So congrats again either way.

I don't think Rangers are broken really...people are always going to make that claim whenever a deck type does well, imho. I ran out of time tonight to post my big GenCon wrap-up but I'll try for tomorrow sometime. Sigh.

Wytefang said:

Sorry. Couldn't resist it.

Bolt thrower doesn't need to be banned just errataed to a limited number of times per turn... also Bolt Thrower decks have a huge drawback to them: if you can't get Bolt Thrower in play or to stay in play you can't win. Most of those decks play with only 1 or 2 sets of units and they are there for support functions only. And while you can grab Bolt Thrower from the discard pile you still have to draw it next turn and then play it. Personally I think any Order deck does well not because of Bolt Thrower but because of the HUGE amount game state control that Order has access too. Seriously I bet someone could make a Order deck where the only win condition is the new HE Ship in MotD and all the control cards in Order and still do will in a tourney. Heck throw some Abysses in there for a mill victory because you will have all the time in the world.

You are incorrect. Mining Tunnels lets you Order In Chaos back the Thrower and then play it in the same turn, if you need to. It's more likely that an Abandoned Mine or Long Winter bounces back the Thrower you played on turn 1 though. The Thrower does not need to stay in play at all in most cases - you are most definitely wrong there - you just need enough resources to kill in 1 go, and that is definitely doable.

While Mining Tunnels, Master Rune of Spite etc. all help the Thrower deck a lot, I should note at this point that it was alive and well before the Enemy Cycle, it's just that noone was paying much attention, apparently.

You may be correct that there's another way to set up a win condition that doesn't need to ever actually attack, I'll grant you that, but I haven't seen anything convincing yet.

I think introducing sideboards would be a better option than banning. I think banning/errata should be the final answer to a problem.

darkdeal said:

We allow sideboarding in our nationa league and as I said before in other posts, that's incredibly amazing... Lots of games are completely different one from another and you don't know exactly what you'll find 2nd game...

It's a great deal, IMHO.

Sideboarding would go a long way toward pre-empting this kind of nonsense in the future, yes, and would generally address some of the lopsided matchup percentages in the game. But, as I've said before, I am generally opposed to banning powerful strategies, since it is usually fairly simple to come up with good hate cards or powerful counter-strategies. Might be willing to concede that Thrower could be an exception since it wins at "action speed" and that causes a lot of problems; that kind of win condition perhaps shouldnt be in the game at all. Open to further discussion.

What really troubles me though is the power creep for resource engines. I've said this in other threads, but it seems like the devs have responded to the perceived weakness of order factions by giving them extremely powerful resource (kingdom/quest) cards. This is a very, very bad idea... it will warp the entire game. I thought it was bad that Skaven decks would leave phase 1 on turn 1-2; dwarf decks these days routinely get to phase 3 on turn 2. Its not just christmasland when a dwarf deck has ~12+ hammers on the board (counting mining tunnels as an extra hammer in quest, since that is what it is) on turn 2 or 3. Yesterday we had a start where a dwarf deck had 15 hammers on turn 2 via Ancestral Tombs, Innovations, Mining Tunnels and Treasure Vaults. What the hell.

If the devs continue to use busted resource acceleration as a balancing mechanism, this game is going to ugly, fast. Power creep is not fun, and I don't see what the devs are doing right now as sustainable at all.

The sad part is we're already seeing the pendulum swing back the other way. Lord of Change is the first of many BROKEN cards to come. Mark my words that card is BROKEN, every bit as broken as mining tunnels. He needs some decent destruction-side resource accel to support him (which to be fair might not exist right now), but having essentially infinite access to your deck is something that should not be. Remember his ability is not a once per turn thing, you can literally flip a cascade of cards off the top... with a dwarf resource engine to back him up, you could dump 10+ cards per turn onto the table every turn. At least he's a unit so he can be dealt with more easily than an early mining tunnelsx2 start etc, but yeah, I foresee problems.

darkdeal said:

That's a good point. I think that the Thrower decks would have got wtfpwned by the wall of Dwarves at GenCon if there were, say, 10 card sideboards around (well, ok, I don't think that anyone with a clue would have brought Thrower but you see the point). This was exactly why I and others were making the argument for sideboards in the zillion page thread a while ago. No sideboards means that people show up effectively heavily pre-sideboarded against what they expect to be their likely matchups and trust in the pairings fairy - and you get rewarded for playing narrow strategies like Thrower.

vermillian said:

maybe because thats what the Tournament Rules document says.

but then, why this document does so, thats for reasons beyond my knowledge ;-)

After playing this event I agree that sideboarding might be a good solution.

Vitamin T said:

I've always loved sideboarding. And obviously after playing this event I'm for it too. <why oh why did I cut forced march, oh wait I already had 58 cards in the deck lol>

- dut

My only problem with sideboards remains that it requires three-game matches, which I still don't see as realistic when there are slow decks in the meta. Especially with the tiebreaker situation where it is right now...

Not that it really matters, since there won't be another real tournament until next year at Gencon. But, if it actually mattered, I would prefer banning the Bolt Thrower. It is never going to be a fun deck and is probably going to keep HE from getting other good stuff.