WFRP 3 is basically my first exposure to the setting. I played both first and second editions maybe once or twice each… or maybe I never got past making a character, I can’t even remember. But anyway, I’m not terribly familiar with the setting (although I did just read the Gotrek & Felix omnibus). And I know from experience sometimes when a new edition comes out the setting drifts as well. (I got into Ars Magica just before their 5th edition, which apparently had major drift.)

I know that the game hasn’t provided a whole lot of setting information yet, or maybe it’s just something about the new format that makes it look like less. And yeah, I get that there’s been no halflings (although they’re mentioned here and there). But so far, has there been any noticeable setting drift? Is it close enough to 2nd edition that the fluff and background in those books are still valuable?

The only thing to keep in mind is the timeline has been set back a bit. 2nd Edition (And the later Gotrek and Felix books) are set after the Storm of Chaos. 3rd Edition is set prior. So any references to war refugees, the war in the north, and Archaon's forces should be changed to fit the timeline.

Compared to 2nd edition, the setting changes might be minor (no idea, I've never played it), but compared to 1st edition, they can be pretty significant.

Most important difference to those familiar with The Enemy Within, is that in 3rd edition, the Emperor is described as a hero who rides into battle on a griffin. On the whole, the setting is described as more heroic and less dark and gritty.

Magic has been divided into 8 colourful colleges, where 1st edition had (for the majority of its lifespan) only 5 magic categories: battle, illusion, elemental, demonology and necromancy.

I don't think I've seen the Old Faith (druids and all that) mentioned anywhere. Is that still in 3rd?

Sea Elves are gone. But High Elves roam the Empire. And dwarf PCs are supposed to be from a new, nearby Karak, rather than being respected Imperial citizens. Halflings seem to be mostly gone, though people are still hoping for their return. (There's a halfling in The Gathering Storm, though!)

If WFRP sticks reasonably closely to current WFB canon (which seems about 100% likely), there are some other changes to expect: Bretonnia is not a country of social unrest on the verge of revolution, but instead a country of Arthurian chivalry. Albion is probably gone forever, as are Fimir. Lizardmen changed completely, the Slann changed a lot. Kislev seems to have changed a lot between 1st and 2nd editions.

There's probably a lot of similar tiny detail that I'm forgetting.

Oh, and a complete province, Sudenland, has vanished.

A few notes (considering some relatively recent updates to WFB):

• Fimir are mentioned by name in the new (July 2010) rulebook.
• Bretonnia's self-perception is that of Aurthurian chivalry, with the truth skewing back toward earlier editions (with a healthy dose of Monty Python peasantry).
• "Sea Elves" are just those elves from the Outer Kingdoms of Ulthuan, particularly Eataine.
• Taal and Rhya have been nudged to overlap with the space occupied by the Old Faith in 1st.
• Albion is still there, it's just not a pleasant (or... viable) place to visit.

Except for the first item, this was all largely the case with WFRP 2nd as well. The only substantive differences between 2nd and 3rd are the timeline - 3rd isn't specific about the current date, but doesn't give much detail past 2521. 2nd "starts" after 2522 in the aftermath of Archaon's invasion of the Empire.

There's also a subtle setting difference hidden in the rules. In 1st edition, literacy was pretty common, and not just reserved for academics. I fondly remember my literate troll slayer, for example. In 3rd edition, according to the rules, you can't read unless you've got Education trained. That means you're very unlikely to encounter literate troll slayers (or other warriors, rogues, rangers, or anyone in a career that doesn't require Education).

And it's a problem too, because a lot of clues in WFRP tend to be on paper. I think a house rule that anyone with Intelligence 4+ (or 3+?) can read is a really good idea.

About Sea Elves, I guess substituting High Elves from the outer kingdoms would work, but that's not quite the same. According to 1st edition, High Elves considered Sea Elves uncouth, as well as crazy for wanting to leave Ulthuan. There are Sea Elf communities in all major trading cities. In 3rd edition, High Elves are clearly less isolationist: we get envoys and Hoeth swordmasters roaming the Empire. Perhaps the real difference here is that High Elves are less arrogant and more willing to consider other races as equals.

One really big difference with 1st edition that I forgot: no gods of Law! We might not miss Illuminas much, but Solkan used to be popular with witch hunters, and Arianka had a rather epic adventure seed in her description.

Also, in 1st edition, there were more than 4 Chaos gods. The lesser ones tend to be rather self-destructive, but can be a fun twist in an RPG. WFB, on the other hand, has the despicable concept of Chaos Undivided, which is an oxymoron and should be kept out of WFRP at all costs. The roll-back to before 2nd edition's storm of chaos is very welcome here. Hopefully we can ignore that storm from now on.

Hashut and the Horned Rat are still existing minor Chaos gods in the current Warhammer lore, and IIRC, Necoho and Zuvassin were mentioned in the Tome of Salvation for WFRP2 - maybe they will be mentioned in WFRP3 too, who knows. Malal is not mentioned among the greater Chaos gods, but you can still include him as a minor. That's the beauty of Chaos, it's ever changing, and you can do whatever you want with it.

High elves: I think they are still arrogant and still don't consider the other races as equal. Rather, they consider them useful "tools".

mcv said:

WFRP change since 1st Edition to match with WFB.

Magic in 1st Edition : you mentions the core rulebook. The very late 1st edition supplement Realms of Magic structured it in colleges and colors.

Old Faith is coming in the adventure "The song Witch" in the 3rd edition.

Sea Elves have become High elves from the Eataine Country on the Ulthuan Island. Major elven navigators.

Bretonnia is arthurian since 2nd edition. Its revolutionnary mood is still very present though (check the adventure from 2nd ed bretonnian supplement).

People talk as if WFRP 2E made the changes. The truth is, these changes came from WF-Battles and 2E just updated itself to fit GWs new setting changes. Bretonnia was changed to make the army more interesting and separate from the Empire. A revolutionary French style army would have been less fantasy and almost identical to the Empire but with none of the fun flare (steam tanks, hellblast volley guns and so forth).

I do miss the 3rd/4th and even 5th editions of WF-Battles primarily the skaven and empire army lists. Back in the day the Empire could have Ogres, Dwarves and Halflings as standard parts of their forces and then take a elven unit as an ally.

And many groups used the Army books and rule books for WF-Battles as supplemental and updated material for the WFRP 1E setting (often referred to Revised WFRP in our college group).

Heck one GM even wrote up a "new" World Section for 1E that was like 30 pages long. We used the conversion rules in the WFRP 1E Rule Book to convert critters from Warhammer Quest, Warhammer Fantasy Battles and even Man O War when possible.

Oh it was fun to be that young, to have a dedicated group of players and to have the free time.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Man, isn't that the truth.

But yeah, good point. WFRP has always played follow-the-leader to anything GW deems useful while selling toy soldiers. Can't say I disagree (I love me some shiny new toy soldiers) but when GW has made missteps (like Storm of Chaos) WFRP follows along. I really think that was the weakest part of WFRP 2e - it was saddled with the Storm version of the setting.

RARodger said:

WFRP2 and WFRP3 are the same world, history, background fluff...etc. And all based on the WFB. Only Game Mechanics have changed.

So, I would say WFRP2 sourcebooks are currently most valuable source of information (besides maybe WFB books), because WFRP3 hasn't given that much background information yet. There was huge number of WFRP2 books all with good amount of background stuff. It will take long time to WFRP3 to get to same level.

morskittar said:

Storm of Chaos wasnt all that bad. The problem is that this worldwide campaign already had a planned ending andthat ending wasnt coming through with the playing results so they shoehorned the ending they wanting in after the fact.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Some old Warhammer fans (like me) consider steam tanks an abomination. Only Dwarfs should have steam tech. (Though I guess it would make sense to have dwarven engineers in an Empire army.)

Peacekeeper_b said:

I also know a lot of WFRP fans who detest everything from WFB from 4th edition onward, exactly because it moves away from the original dark WFRP setting towards a more flashy high fantasy setting. There's a good reason why Warpstone never went along with WFB. I consider the WFB setting not terribly compatible with WFRP. WFRP is much more interesting when the Empire is at peace and left to fester and rot from within, rather than being forced to unite to face an external threat.

So, what's this "Storm of Chaos" or whatever I keep hearing about?

I haven't played or read any of the adventures (and if I'm lucky may be a player in them), so without spoilers, does the title "The Gathering Storm" and whatever the next adventure that's announced draw from that?

I prefer the setting of 1st edition, where people are oblivious to what's happening around them, and where "evil" is the "witch" (read: old woman) living in the forest. Where the commoners greatest enemy was the nobleman rulling nearby, or the clergy telling him how to respect said noble.

With Storm Chaos was suddenly in your face, a reality and a common enemy. You could still have "The Enemy Within", but people knew what the threat was.

1st edition IS this worlds Dark Ages, full of superstition, fear of the unknown, cruel nobles, and all of what people think they know, is not how it seems. And while being a fantasy world, the players will start out seeing it as a "real world".

2nd edition is a fantasy world, emperor flying on griffin, HUGE hordes of chaos, beastmen in the woods, skaven fielding armies, hell! the Sigmar priest looked like a Terminator (40K) with that hammer! Not gonna say it out loud, but I sure do know which age group I think Storm was aimed at...

The online game went with WFB direction, which send me fleeing from it

RARodger said:

Storm of Chaos was a worldwide "narrative campaign" run by GW for Warhammer 6th edition. It involved background, some scripted events, and players reporting battle results which were aggregated into an overall narrative. The issue with it, as Peacekeeper_b noted, was that the scripting and player results conflicted, which resulted in a bunch of pretty random events and a return to status quo, outside of a vaguely post-war feel to the northern Empire.

Gathering Storm could allude to it, as the event was essentially the doomsday scenario that had been built up since WFRP 1st/WFB 3rd - Chaos armies returned, ravaged the Empire, end times, dogs and cats living together, all that. I think, though, that the Gathering Storm is mostly a reference to the storm-lashed and rain-soaked Stromdorf.

Overall I'm pretty happy WFRP 3rd and WFB 8th have dialed back to before the Storm. I much prefer the 1st edition-style oppressive and looming end of the world version of Warhammer, which we've largely rewound back to (rather than a post-end-of-the-world-that-was-easily-prevented version). The Storm of Chaos could be a future event or it could be an alternate future (much like Warhammer Online's alternate Age of Reckoning doomsday scenario).

A few cool things did come out of the Storm though, like Luthor Huss (snicker) using a farm boy as "Sigmar Reborn" to cause a wedge within the Cult of Sigmar's ranks as he saw the established priesthood becoming too soft.

RARodger said:

WFRP3 setting is based on the years 2520-2521. So, the great war - Storm of Chaos - is looming there ready to start. It actually started in Kislev 2521, but the main invasion to the Empire came 2522.

War didnt last that long - it ended in 2522 also. But the damage was really great. Chaos armies advanced through Kislev to northern Empire all the way to Middenheim were there was great siege. Other part of Chaos army came from the Dark Lands and invaded the Empire from the east then. This was mostly cut down by the Dwarfs and after that UNDEAD army of Vampire Lord Mannfred von Carstein of Sylvania.

Now, one great weakness, in my opinion, WFRP2 had, was to start AFTER the war. Storm of Chaos would have make great campaing to put the players in the midst of this great war starting before and ending in the end. Now, when WFRP3 published their setting timeline, I was sure their idea was to do this campaing adventure by adventure starting before the war and advancing forward ... But now time has passed and who knows how long it will take that they will advance to the war finally - All the adventures seem to happen just before. Hopefully soon, but probably not... So, better start playing game few years before the great war - say 2519...

RARodger said:

No. Not as far as I can tell, anyway. I remain hopeful that FFG will completely ignore the Storm of Chaos. Pretend like it's never going to happen, so people can continue to live their lives in ignorance of the real threats facing them.

Spivo said:

Very well put. I agree with every word you wrote, and this is exactly why I love the 1st edition setting so much.

I sincerely hope FFG will go into that direction as much as their contract with GW will allow. Unfortunately their art does feature Sigmarite priests in almost Terminator-style armour.

Agreed on the 1e setting. I was really pleased to see that the next adventure release will be set in the Wasteland/Marienburg. For my money 'Marienburg: Sold Down the River' was one of the best supplements for the original game and gave a fantastic setting for adventures. AFAIK 2e left Marienburg pretty much alone, although the Thousand Thrones campaign begins there.

Personally, our group has just started a converted version of TEW and are now ready for 'Shadows over Bogenhafen'... I think there's plenty of scope to keep 3e in line with your 1e expectations, all back alley brawls, seedy taverns, corrupt nobles and ignoble deaths, or go in a completely different direction if that's your thing. We have converted 2e adventures and it is fairly easy to ignore the Storm of Chaos.. if it can be done in an adventure set in post-siege Middenheim, I'm sure that it can be set aside elsewhere as well.

Spivo said:

This is interesting. I'm not too familiar with 1e. The 'feel' that you describe; is it explicit in the rulebook? Or is it, perhaps, made possible because of an absence of high fantasy elements (and juvenile artwork)? How much is in the actual rulebook, and how much is "corrupting influence" (e.g. Warpstone)?

Just as an aside, I plan to make the Griffon Rider the official view of Karl-Franz in the Empire. Quite simply, it is in the interest of the powers behind the throne to glorify battles, armies and great leaders. There is a steady demand for new cannon fodder, and people might not as willingly die for their emperor if they considered him weak. Of course, it is seldom in people's best interest to die anyway, and motives in high places may not always be all that heroic.

Reiklanders are described as good imperialists in the rulebook (p. 23), "heroically" defending their borders, and fighting the good fight against "fractious and distrustful" provinces (clearly the provinces don't know what's good for them!). The "heroic" description of the emperor, then, is just part of how Rieklanders view themselves, much as phrases such as "treacherous elves" reveal not the truth about elves but the dwarfs' point of view (p. 24).

Anyway, is seems simple enough to tweak the setting. The only part of the actual rules that I don't like so far is the idea that affluent characters begin play with a "healing draught".

Aladåb

Aladaab said:

While it can be inferred from the core, where this impression really becomes explicit is in Shadows over Bogenhaffen, probably the best adventure ever written for WFRP and one of the best adventures ever written for any game, ever. A number of people have been working on converting this game to v3. Definitely worth a look.

Aladaab said:

I never had a problem with Karl-Franz riding a griffon. It's a fantasy setting, it makes sense that poeple would attempt to tame fantasy creatures. Still, YMMV.

As for the healing draughts, they're the Warhammer equivalent to Red Bull. Might give you a bit of a boost, but there's nothing magical about them.

macd21 said:

macd21 said:

Interesting. Why is Red Bull way too expensive for ordinary people?

Aladaab said:

Because in the Warhammer world it isn't mass produced in cans.

Yet someone, somewhere is manufacturing the stuff. Unless it's just generic high fantasy?

Aladaab said:

It's 'manufactured' by people with some herb lore and then sold at inflated prices to people desperate for a bit of cure-all. It isn't magical and if you know the right people you can get it for far less. For the typical adventurer (read: out-of-town mercenary) however, it's gonna be pretty expensive.