Adam France said:

I personally think that this could actually work quite well. I understand your reservations, but I think that logically there are just as many reasons why it could work very nicely.

The constellations issue doesn't worry me in the slightest. Even moving from one world to another in the same subsector would totally change the layout of the night sky, and perhaps only a Navigator or lifelong astronomer would be able to identify galactic location from the stars on a random world's night sky.

The Tau point is IS harder to reconcile. However, I think you're making a number of arguably erroneous assumptions about the way news about a crusade filters back to the Imperium, and the level of galactic knowledge held by most of its inhabitants. To successfully identify a Tau AS a Tau, and from there to identify which part of the galaxy it lives in would be beyond the abilities of all but those who have the Forbidden Lore (Xenos) skill. Remember, this information is called "forbidden" for a reason. The Imperium actively discourages the study of this field, except among its elite operatives. So 99% of those involved with the crusade wouldn't really have any experience of or knowledge of the Tau, and you can imagine the 1% would treat it as Top Secret. Also bear in mind that there are so many local xenos races which resemble the Tau. Unless you were very knowledable, you wouldn't be able to spot the difference between say, and Enoulian (Calixis-locale Xenos race) and a Tau (Eastern fringe Xeno race).

And as for the rumour and gossip thing among crusade forces, yes, I accept that this would be rife. But how does news actually pass among regiments scattered across dozens of light years? The only way of even passing data at this level would be by using Astropaths, and their information would be tightly controlled by High Command and the Inquisition.

I accept that maintaining this facade would be harder among the Imperial Fleet. Officers there would likely have a better idea of the enemy they are facing based upon records of alien ships. But it's quite possible that only the top 20-30 officers in each ship (plus astropaths and navigators) would have this information, and they'd be under no obligation to pass it on to Imperial Guard officers. Plus they've likely been ordered not to.

As for the chaos storm thing, bear in mind that as readers of 40k material, we know far more than the inhabitants. Your critique of this point is that crusaders should easily draw a connection between a warp anomaly in their area of activities and a warp anomaly on maps of the galaxy. When would the average 40k inhabitant have access to maps as detailed as the ones we (as 40k consumers) have? And it would also seem that warp anomalies are relatively common: Rifts of Hecaton, the Cauldron, the Maw....All of these features appear in the Koronus Expanse alone, and I can think of two others (Eye of Terror, Maelstrom) just off the top of my head. All warp anomalies are weird, but knowledge of which one is which would imply possession of a combination of the Forbidden Lore (Warp) and Astrography skills. Most people in 40k wouldn't have that sort of information.

As for the Margin Crusade/Imperial Ruins issue, I concede you have a point here. But if you're an Imperial Guard Colonel and you find yourself fighting through the ruins of an Imperial Cathedral, what do you do with this information? Maybe you pass it up the chain of command with a query as to the history of the world you're fighting on...you'd probably get a strongly worded missive back telling you to roll your neck back and concentrate on following orders and not to speculate about anything above your pay grade. And who would you voice your suspicions to? Perhaps other officers... Maybe even some of your trusted troops. But what would you do with this information really? Raise a formal complaint with your Commissar about being lied to by High Command? Er...not if you've got any sense. So what do you do? You curse about the quality of the Intel you're receiving and carry on fighting... Like soldiers have always done.

Although there may be sporadic questioning of the "Official line" about fighting in the Margin Crusade, I think that the Big Lie would actually hold up pretty well.

The Tyranids thing IS a point, though. Perhaps (and here I engage in speculation to support a setting which Adam sounds like he already has reservations about) the classified nature of whatever the Crusade is ACTUALLY about means that the Crusade High Command doesn't want the wider Imperium knowing about what's going on in the Jericho Reach? I know Adam'll hate that explanation, but it's just a thought...

EDIT: Plus, as an obvious 40kRPG crossover point, it means that all 3 games can be run in the same setting. A character could start in the Calixis Sector, move to the Koronus Expanse and end up in the Jericho Reach. Plenty of crossover opportunities without stretching things too much. Though I know not everyone will agree with me on that.

But wouldn't knowing anything about the Tau make you a heretic? I'm just saying.

@Lightbringer: Pretty much spot on. That's how I reasoned it might work.

I mean, all the naval officers know of the Warp Gate, etc, because they have to. It's basically entirely kept on a need-to-know basis, and the way it's done is pretty clever, at least in my opinion. It's not as though the Imperial Guard need know any different, because they don't really need to care about where they are fighting or why, they just know they are fighting for the Emperor, and that should be enough, given they'll be too busy fighting, dying or trying to survive to contemplate that they might not be exactly where they are told they are.

So... Wait. Those Guardsman in Dark Heresy are not really veterans of the Margin Crusade?!? Well, if that doesn't beat all...

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Well they're veterans of A crusade... I guess it's like veterans of Iraq being given an Afghanistan campaign medal...without necessarily knowing they were ever actually in Iraq!

Well, they might be a veteran of the Margin Crusade, it depends on how old they are really

Otherwise... that could prove a fairly interesting character development in-game, to discover the Crusade you fought in wasn't the one you were told you fought in...

MILLANDSON said:

This could lead to some interesting plots ala "I was on world X", "so was I", "I hated the bugs", "What bugs? Its an ice planet" ect.

If you read the imperial infantryman's uplifting primer, that gives you a fairly good idea of what the average guardsmen knows about xenos I think. IIRC there's very little about where the foul alien lives, mostly just propaganda and lies to make the imperial guard feel more confident when fighting them. Granted parts of the book are slightly tongue in cheek, but I imagine that's the sort of detail the guardsmen get.

"The enemy look like this, they are foul xenos abominations. Aim for the head. Ave Imperator!"

You can also imagine that at least part of margin crusade is still there. Even if the whole lot was lost the Imperium would still need a border force of some sort even it was only garrisoned regiments each of which beliving they are holding up while the main thrust is being made in another part of the Halo stars.

There's no problem with the knowledge of Tau, everbody knows there are Xeno's, and veterans of wars will be spread rumors and tales about them but that's not going to make it across the entire Imperium. That and the fact that soldiers and traders going beyond the Imperiums boundries will often happen across races they don't know about.

The only people who are likely to realise anything based on this is members of the Ordo Xeno's who would notice when they get offical Imperium records that these aliens haven't been encountered outside of the eastern fringe. And those people that do find that out are probably in on it.

I don't see how the stated fluff is a big problem.

I don't like that they've tied it to the Koronus Expanse and the Calixis Sector, mostly because I don't see why it is at all necessary (why can't the Jericho Reach stand on its own?), but their explanation is sound.

1. Most people don't know constellations.
2. Most people in the Imperium go their whole lives without ever leaving the planet they were born on, and have even less chance of encountering aliens. Therefore, most people don't know where the Tau are (and I'd say that given the size of the Tau Empire, most people don't even know the Tau exist ).
3. Propaganda is strong in the Imperium, so if you're a Guardsman being told by your Commissar that there are Tau in the western reaches of the Milky Way, then guess what? There are Tau in the western reaches of the Milky Way and you are not going to argue with him.
4. In the same way that most people have probably never heard of the Tau, I doubt the location of Warp storms and anomalies are common knowledge. It's a far cry from, say, being told you're going to France and when you get there wondering why the Statue of Liberty is in in Paris.


Works fine when you remember that most people (ie. humans) in 40K only know what they are told.

BYE

It's not hard to keep the masses fooled to some extent.

Tau? Those aren't Tau! Oh, you're sure about it? I've heard that they're actually the lost 13th tribe of Tau. No? Well, this isn't something the High Command wants spread around, but it seems the Tau have access to a Warp Gate to this sector - we must sieze it!

Imperial ruins? We have no records of this area being pacified by the Great Crusade but much knowledge was lost in the Age of Apostasy. This is a great find. We must return them to the fold!

The problem is more with keeping the Sector Governors, who are apparently being duped into providing resources for this crusade, in the dark. They'd find out almost immediately. The sheer amount of shipping needed to support such a campaign lends itself to someone selling the info. They'd have their own agents keeping tabs on progress as well. However I don't see why they need to be in the dark. Although Jericho Reach is on the other side of the galaxy it DOES border them via the Warp Gate. Securing it for the Emperor, and opening new routes to the rest of the galaxy, can only mean more trade and prestige.

It won't surprise many I'm sure to hear I disagree fundamentally with the defences given. As Darknite states, it might fool an ignorant grunt, it wouldn't fool Imperial nobility (which is who in fact it is apparently aimed at fooling) for more than a month or two. That Lord Sector Hax is apparently unaware of this is ludicrous - especially as the entire navy command staff seem to be aware of the lie! What? Did no ambitious second officer think to try to sell this secret to the Obscuran nobility? The Lord Sectors not have loyal agents across the Crusade fleets and armies? Bollocks. That's simply not credible. These are hugely wealthy and influential noble families that live and die by deceit, spying, and the acquisition of secrets, they would be micro-monitoring the progress of any campaigns that are draining their coffers.

All the defences made assume Imperial forces are deaf, dumb, and blind to anything they aren't being told by Crusade Command. Clearly, both canonically (Gaunt books) and reasonably, that's highly doubtful to say the least. Any ruined Imperial world is going to have a wealth of data on it, from engravings on statues, public monuments, intact cogitators, data sticks, books, maps, buildings (both governmental and private) etc etc - simply handwaving away facts pointing to the world being actually located on the other side of the galaxy is not going to work, and certainly not if the same thing is happening on worlds all across the region time after time after time.

What really baffles me about the idea though is why FFG felt the need to go with such a shakey idea in the first place? It's not like Calixis and it's neighbouring sectors couldn't have been providing troops for 2 acknowledged ongoing crusades. Why not just have the Margin Crusade ongoing and separate to this other crusade?

It's a terrible idea imho. I was probably not going to use the Jericho Reach as a whole before this (as I'm not keen on either the Tau, or the Tyranids, for differing reasons), I'm definitely not now. I shall just mine out any usable worlds and them individually into the Koronus Expanse. In my version of the setting the Margin Crusade is ongoing ... and also more terrifying conceptually for Imperial soldiers, as they are being sent 'beyond the Emperor's light', so the rumour is if they die their souls won't be able to find their way to the Golden Throne.

All I need now is some kind of guarantee the Margin Crusade will now not be detailed and I can get to work detailing it ... or at least deciding who it's being fought against - *sigh*.

darknite said:

Hmmm....that's got me thinking, Darknite. Like you say, this "fooling" Ixaniad/Scarus/Calixis Sector governments issue is interesting. Keeping this whole thing quiet from the grunts involved is easy (see comments above) but the higher you go up the chain, the harder this "big lie" is to maintain.

Firstly, the provision of PDF into the Imperial Guard is part of the Tithe, and Planetary Governors have never had any say in how the Tithe gets spent, that's a matter for the subsector and sector government level. So duping individual planetary governors isn't an issue, as from their point of view the soldiers given to the Imperium ain't coming back anyway, and they've never had any say over how they're deployed once they leave their world.

I assume then that we're talking about, as darknite says, Sector and Subsector level government. One imagines that to some extent this is the first level at which the Imperial command structure has some input into where Guard and Navy forces are deployed. The Lords Militant actually command the troops on a planetary level, the Lord Admirals tell the Navy where to go...but someone high up in the Administratum - either a subsector commander or Lord Sector - (Or Inquisitor) needs to actually authorise their use.

So why would one of these guys object to the deployment of Imperial Guard troops to the other side of the galaxy? (Bear with me, I'm working this through myself!)

Perhaps becase there are perceived threats locally which are greater than threats on the other side of the Galaxy? There are lots of Orks and Pirates in the Koronus Expanse, maybe Lord Hax would prefer that they were cleared out so that the wealth of a new sector, the Koronus Sector, could be opened up and poured through Calixis? The problem with this is that there are only a handful of war worlds in the Calixis Sector, and the Scarus Sector seems relatively peaceful, too. So why would Hax and the Lords Ixaniad and Scarus resent giving up troops who would otherwise just be sitting around twiddling their thumbs?

Why does the Imperium NEED to keep this stuff secret?

I don't doubt that they CAN keep this stuff secret...(for a while) from the various Planetary Governors and Subsector Governors. I don't agree that they'd find out almost immediately, Darknite. But I do think they'd have trouble keeping this stuff quiet from the Inquisition, who are primed to investigate big cover ups of this nature.

So I understand HOW they could do this cover up, but I don't understand WHY they feel they need to, and I don't think they could hide it for very long from the Inquisition.

Which suggests to me that the Inquisition are closely involved in the whole cover up...in fact even might be behind it. The only alternative to them being behind the whole thing is that it's a Segmentum-Level authorised cover up, as it appears to supersede the authority of 3 Lords Sector.

All this is very interesting, I like a nice big conspiracy! This was just the sdort of high-level intrigue I was hoping for from a big Imperial Crusade!

"To fool your enemies, you must first fool your allies"

The tighter they can keep this information controlled, the less likely it is Humanity's enemies can learn of a galaxy-spanning warp gate.

Adam France said:

I imagine because FFG noticed the interest in Tau and Tyranids and sought some mechanism to include them for players within the framework of the existing setting.

I wouldn't dismiss the DW background as mere "handwavery," though. Having seen FFG in action, I would say that many of the guys working on the background know it extremely well and have quite devious ways of making it work. As I work through in my post above, I have no doubt at all that there is more to this whole arrangement than we are being told in the original core rulebook. I am sure that the reasons behind this will become clear as part of a meta-plot over the course of the whole product line.

I think it's interesting how Adam and I have polarised so rapidly over this point. Perhaps I am a mindlessly optimistic FFG fanboy, but I've seen them produce some brilliantly executed stuff, and I trust them to pull this one off.

GalagaGalaxian said:

I agree with this and in fact it is kind of cool if it was just aimed at the rank & file members of the Crusade.

darknite said:

Which doesn't seem to be the case. The whole point isn't to convince the grunts - they fight where they are told to. It's to fool their masters; the nobility, the landowners, the planetary rulers, and Sector Lords even. The sort of people who know for a fact there's no lost Imperial Sector (named Jericho) in the Halo Stars region the Margin Crusade is being fought over, and indeed would know where Jericho used to be, where the Tau Empire is, and possibly even where the Hadrax Rift thingy is.

It would not work.

Ok, first i think the lore of the crusades and sectors all make sense, the masses in the imperium are kept out of all knowledge.

Now, the main reason i am here just a few questions while i think of my own. 1) Do they make reference to the Fallen for the DA? I ask because a GM could hint or allude at the fallen then a few months later in game time the Vinco Redemptor jumps out of the warp and his campaign is in serious trouble. Needless to say i hope all you GMs keep your DA from meeting one. 2) I know this has been asked a lot but there are just the few types of armor correct? essentially Power, Artificer, Terminator. there are no sub branches for these types? 3) Could i get a short example of Chapter specialty for the DA and say SW?

Again, thank you so very much for doing this. If you feel any of my questions are overly stupid just slap my wrist and point the correct way to the answer!

Did anyone say they are fooling Hax? I mean maybe he knows.

HAX: So you want to take my men, troops from my worlds, my sector and my wealth and finances and fight a war on the other side of the Imperium?

Warmaster: Yes. You see there is this warp gate right on the edge of your domain that links with this other area of the Imperium.

HAX: Why should I care about something on the other side of the galaxy?

Warmaster: Well, you see, these things called the Tau and the Tyranids and Chaos Space Marines and other nasties are all trying to find and use this warp gate and if they succeed, and we fail, well next stop Scintilla!

HAX: Oh,well in that case, have a dozen more regiments!

Local planetary governors may be fooled easily. Even subsector govenors I would presume, as Hax would let them know what was going on. Meaning, he tells them about the Margin Crusade and how nifty it is. Overall, it is a real matter of need to know.

Navigators, Astropaths, Lord Admirals need to know

Troops, local planetary governors, lower officers, etc do not need to know.

Hax, well, I always assume Hax knows everything. Besides, he would benefit from trade with the other side of the imperium.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Well he is the Venetari of the DH setting isn't he?

Adam France said:

I posit that you sir are flat out wrong.

There's absolutelyt no reason for the nobility, landowners (uhm, definetly no), planetary rulers, and Sector Lords to know what the Tau are, where the Jericho Sector used to be, or about the Hadrax Rift.

For one thing, all that **** is on the other side of the galaxy, for another they have more important matters to concern themselves with in the majority, like ruling their planets/sectors, and managing their economic concerns, not searching out every scrap of lore on some dirty crusade going on in the next sector.

As for why some enterprising 2nd officer wouldn't have blown the whistle by now, well the Commissriat and Inquisition both have a well known habit of killing people who don't know how to keep their mouths shut. Remember that the former doesn't just stand around looking scary and waiting to shoot people, Commissars are actually supposed to perform investigations and such, so they can nip rebellious commanders and alien or chaos influence in the but, before the whole regiment is consumed. While Inquisitors could have people absolutely everywhere.

Another detail that people are failing to consider is that it isn't called the Jericho Reach in character, at least around the people who aren't in on the secret. Likewise with all the other telling terms.

While the debate is most interesting, I'm sure someone would like us to bugger off somewhere else and stop clogging up "his" thread.

Which is why...

Lightbringer said:

Ooops, sorry, forgot to include the Inquisition in the groups of people who know all about it, and do actively try to keep those that are out of the know, out of the know

As for why the Sub-Sector/Sector bosses might argue if they knew the truth? Things were fine in the Crusade... until the Tyranids turned up and pretty much ate 1/3 of the Crusade force. The Orpheus Salient, the arm of the Crusade that ran into the Tyranids, was mostly wiped out, with General Curas, the leader of the Orpheus Salient forces, and his entire Senior Staff (basically the entire command of the Orpheus Salient) all missing, presumed dead.

As such, Orpheus is in disarray and has had huge losses, around 80%, and so the Crusade has had to be drafting over double the usual number of troops and materials given by the Ixanaid/Scarus/Calixis Sectors normally. If they knew that their industries and troops were being pushed to breaking point due to a Crusade happening on the opposite side of the galaxy, when the Sectors near the Jericho Reach are not being tithed harder (due to the lack of supply routes from those sectors to Jericho), you can imagine how pissed off those sectors would be.

How long is an average tour of duty with the Deathwatch anyway? Any information on that?

Alex

Hesporos said:

They do mention the Fallen, and how they could be possible plot points for Dark Angel characters, but not in very deep detail, since they aren't the focus of the book.

As for the armour, as I've previously answered, no, there is only Power Armour, Terminator, Artificer Armour and Scout Armour (well, and flack armour, etc, for the NPCs), and only one variety of each armour. More variations of these armours will be explored in another book (according to the little box beside Power Armour).

And you can read the special abilities for the Dark Angels and Space Wolves in the "Final Sanction" demo, no need for me to write them out again.

@ak-47 - it says that it's down to the individual oath taken by that individual Marine. Often it is for "one mission", but the meaning of "one mission" could mean one Crusade, one area of space for a set length of time... you get the drift. It's basically entirely down to the Marine in question and where he is being stationed.