The Deathwatch, if at all possible, returns fallen Battle-Brothers to their home Chapter as soon as possible, as well as/or replaced by his geneseed, if it could be recovered by the Apothecary of the unit.

There are some rituals of the Deathwatch, some of them covered by the Oaths, and most are left up to the team, as the Deathwatch believes that, as each Battle-Brother is an individual, the team must be allowed to bond in whichever way best suits them. One Kill-Team might bond in a completely different way to another Kill-Team, after all.

Actually, now that I think about it, one quick question: Are there stats (etc.) for normal Marines? Not the buffed up veterans that go to the Deathwatch, but rather the run'o'the mill ones that you'll find milking an existence in Chapter's front lines? Just asking since that would actually be a useful point of information rather than having to reverse engineer from some concept of what might be "veteran."

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Kage, there alas are not.

And this touches upon one of the key issues I have with the SAW. These are veterans, tough arse mothers, who were so notable as to be sent off to join the Elite that form the Deathwatch. True veterans. Without a single damned talent to represent their chapter time in any specialty. That's right you are a veteran Devastator Marine sans all the Talents a Veteran Devastator has, yes, you are a Veteran Assault Marine without any of the Talents an Assault Marine might have the option to learn....

You are in effect run of the mill, newbie, scrub Marines. Seconded to the Deathwatch not because you were the pinnacle of your career, but apparently because you were too daft to learn anything in training that would stick, so they plop you in a "specialty" they claim you excelled at that you have zero talents from and ship you off to the Deathwatch hopefully to die. My gaming group has, because of this, taken to jesting about the Deathwatch being the three first marines shown in that animated short of Space Hulk, the ones Labeled "Scrub, Scrub and Scrub", placed in front of "Slightly important person" who is in front of "actual vet you wished you were playing".....

I am in the middle of a complete rebalance of the setting to fit what my gaming group (whom I run a three tiered game for, so the games ability to "feel right" when played side by side is integral, and right now Rank 1 Deathwatch Marines feel like "just graduated Neophyte". At least to us.

So for me, I would use the entrance ranks like 1 and 2 as representative of a Chapter Devastator, or a Chapter Assault, or just an average Chapter marine. To me Deathwatch Marines would be seconded around Rank 3. When they actually feel like a specialist in their specialty.

Realize I am fully aware that this is an rpg, and that by virtue of being so you need a "starting point" a "lvl 1" in which you have a place to set off on your grand adventure. I just think it a bit odd and off balance that they chose to do a game about the "Best of the Best" then still chose a relatively weak starting point. Hard to be the best of the best from your chapter when a decent Assault Marine from your chapter would likely have a few talents from the tree for their specialty that you did not have access to.

Alexis

*smiles*

Of course, however, "Veteran" would be a flexible title. However, since Deathwatch PCs gain 1000xp worth of skills that they can freely chose to represent the skills they have learnt, it wouldn't be hard to just not allow that 1000xp worth of skills, and not allow access to any of the Deathwatch traits (such as the one all Deathwatch PCs start with) and you would have a normal, bog standard, Space Marine. Of course, there isn't really any such thing as a "bog standard" Space Marine, since even straight out of the Scout Company they will have picked up skills in addition to those that are hypo-indoctrinated into them (like some would be good at Demolitions, whilst others would generally be better at close combat). So really, "run o' the mill" isn't really a term that can apply to Space Marines who have any experience at all.

@Cailieg: The thing is though, if they started off with all those skills initially, it leaves very little room for development. Other than learning more and better ways to kill xenos or whatever you come across, a "veteran", if you had balanced the game, would have very little left to learn, which generally results in a boring game (because players, regardless of what they say, generally like being able to spend XP and see their character become better than what they started as).

Precisely why I stated that I understand Millandson.

A game needs to posess a curve of learning that makes the player feel as though they are advancing in order to maintain interest of the players.

In that regard Deathwatch succeeds in my mind, the balance is great, if you are not taking the wording of the setting at absolute face value, in which case the starting point is sorely wanting for "Veteran Marines, the best of the best sent to the Deathwatch" One of those situations where you cannot have both.

Which is why I am working out something for my game with very little fussing, because as a game designer who has written for two major game lines, I am aware of the need for an xp spending curve.

Alexis Diana Dority

*smiles*

Quick question, what does Gyro Stabilized do? (Tau Weapon Special)

ak-73 said:

Deathwatch Space Marines still get shot in the head! I always found it odd to see Sgt. miniatures in the table top leading squads without helmets. They are usually the ones with powerfists charging into the fray to boot. Why wear so much impenetrable armor just to leave your most important feature at risk?

Ps, I'm a fan of sweet helmets =p

Nocturne said:

They look better with the helmet off when leading a miniature charge... They make your squad stand out that is all because it is a miniature game system.

Cailieg said >>>

Kage, there alas are not.

I had thought as much, which is a tad bit on the disappointing side from the "simulationist" stand point, which is where rightly or wrongly I tend to swing. On the other hand, I can definitely understand why they might have selected to replicate the "setting" if even the glimpses on how "buff" the Marines are in the Deatwatch system, I can certainly understand not wanting to overdo it a bit.

I guess it just means that I'll use the starting characters as an example of the "standard" Marine and ignore what the setting has to say about it, and more how it abstracts things. (I already do this for strength and toughness. If you go for direct conversion you end up with a Marine who is out of their armour as tough as most other people wearing powered armour, and rippling with such muscle that they can throw tanks around. It's a bit too... Dezmond for my liking. )

Cailieg said >>>

So for me, I would use the entrance ranks like 1 and 2 as representative of a Chapter Devastator, or a Chapter Assault, or just an average Chapter marine. To me Deathwatch Marines would be seconded around Rank 3. When they actually feel like a specialist in their specialty.

I cannot speak for RT, since I haven't really seen that much discussion about the efficacy of those characters relative to the setting and the concept of the game, but it seems that the level-boosting is common in Dark Heresy as well. There I judged it to be about level 4 before you began to "come into your own," or be at about the level of competence where many envisaged they would have been to be "Throne Agents." (It's a contentious topic, though.)

Cailieg said >>>

*smiles*

Completely incidentally, this is about as disturbing as it gets for a forum "sign off." It's almost the equivalent of trying to stare down a cobra...

MILLANDSON said >>>

Of course, however, "Veteran" would be a flexible title.

Which also makes it a relatively useless point of reference, hence just treating them as "noobs" and going from there. I also don't think that the 1000 XP is overtly relevant given the whole Level 3 (DW)/Level 4 (DH) thing.

MILLANDSON said >>>

because players, regardless of what they say, generally like being able to spend XP and see their character become better than what they started as.

To a point, but you're really going to have to be more careful with such generalities, MILLANDSON.

Kage

@Cailieg: In my running of Final Sanction, they have not been Veterans but some of the most aspiring talents of their chapters. The first round draft picks so-to-speak.

crisaron said:

There's no difference in the RPG because it's all based in people's imagination and in people's taste what looks better.

The case could be made that these marines have ultimate faith in the Emporer that they won't get hit in the head and if they are that their time had come anyway and no helmet, no protection in the galaxy, would have spared them their fate. A matter of faith in themselves and the Emporer.

The main point isn't realism but in that it helps with variety and that it increases the in-game heroism to do so.

Alex

If people have such a bug up their butt about playing a standard marine just do base stats at 25 + 2d10 and start wounds at 18 -1d5 instead of what the DW marines start with and be done with it. Magically by doing that the rank 1 DW marine is all of a sudden a Veteran in comparison.

My question would be: If you started a DW marine with 10 skills or more all with bonuses where would he go/grow? Lore skills? Peer Talents? If you started playing Superman in a super hero game, how long would that be interesting? You need to be able to evolve and invest in a character. That means picking skills and talents that define your character as you play them.

With all this discussion about 'Veteran' marines I do wonder where the basis for comparison is. The only solid comparison that can be made is to the tabletop game. (Novels have too much Mary Sue influence from the authors) Comparing to the tabletop gives a RAW equivalent to go off of.

Marines in Deathwatch start with a good allotment of skills, talents, all their organs, power armor and proficiency in their weapons. So, lets compare...

Besides named characters, the Deathwatch marines have way more than their miniature equivalents. A veteran squad on the table can use their weapons with proficiency (a little better than a regular squad) and have special issue ammo... both exactly like a Deathwatch starting character.

Where in the tabletop rules do Devestators have any special abilities besides being able to shoot heavy weapons? Where in the tabletop do Assault Marines have anything more than the ability to use Jump Packs?

To me, a run-of-the-mill marine would have a slimmed down list of starting talents and skills (taking out Deathwatch specific skills like Lores and such, removing Killing Strike and the like). Veterans would have 1000xp worth of skills, talents and stat increases (just like Deathwatch starting characters). Deathwatch marines get the lores and special training, like auto-confirming RF against Xenos.

All the talent abilities that are in the RPG are what make the marines truly exceptional . Talents are what the named characters of the Tabletop have, the special rules that make them unique, and this is where all Deathwatch marines go. They go from Veteran (No rules, just beefed up stats) to Legendary (special rules).

That is my two cents, I can see where comparing them to the other 40RP games one would want them to start with more. I am perfectly happy with the starting level of Deathwatch, though.

Doesn't one of the preview adventures, or antagonist books, have Space Marines in it somewhere? Loyalist or Chaos.

If they're listed as being 'average' Marines, as opposed to veteran or some such, they could be used as a good basis for comparison.

Blood Pact said:

In Purge the Unclean, the Adventure Anthology for Dark Heresy there is a Deathwatch Veteran NPC. So not a normal space marine.

I would say a standard marine would be 40 or so in all combat/physical stats and probably 35 in Will Power, Intelligence and Fellowship.

crisaron said:

That's a matter of opinion now isn't it?

I've always thought Marines without helmets look stupid, and I still do.

Wow, I looked at the characters in Final Sanction and told myself these guys aren't Deathwatch Marines by any stretch of the imagination, I just figured they were cut down for the quick-start rules. It appears they are cut down a lot, normally.

Well, that's a shame but makes my life easier. I was going to start players off as regular marines anyway and have the Deathwatch induction happen later, if at all. Looks I can take the supposed one out of a hundred veteran Deathwatch Marine rules and use them for my new marines fresh out of scout training.

I expected a Deathwatch character to start around where an Ascension character starts. Lots of skills and talents yet lots more to get.

Did they greatly reduce the number of powers, talents etc from DH/Ascension?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Which as Cailieg points out is the particular conceit of Deathwatch , and one that may offer a break from the canon materials. That is, it's a decision to make a good game, not simulate the setting. And there's nothing wrong with that.

On my behalf I was interested in what a "non-Veteran" would look like to inform alternate interpretations of Space Marines in other systems. It has nothing to do with having a "bug up [the] but" and everything to do with trying to find the "best" way of abstracting Marines. As it stands, I'm going to have to look at Brother Agamorr of PtU and Deathwatch characters (when I get a hold of it) to see roughly what might be meant by "veteran" (a process made difficult by the fact that Brother Agamorr was created a long time before the conventions of the DW approaches were). Indeed, the whole "Deathwatch" thing in general is itself a minor obstacle.

Anyway, there you have it. That was the reason for the question, so back to people asking about the game (someone got a bit touchy the last time discussion was introduced here!).

Kage

Peacekeeper_b said:

Why does there have to be a standard marine set in stone? It sounds to mechanistic for me; I prefer more fluctuation which translates into more uncertainty for the players which is good. It heightens the tension.

Alex

I am of the belief that each Space Marine is an individual. Some of you are probably going "uh, duh", but I mean in the sense that when you're dealing with small numbers like a mere thousand per Chapter, each Space Marine has to be a character in and of himself. Each has their own personality, interests, strengths, weaknesses, virtues, vices, etc. Each one, to me, is the equivalent of the old Mythological heroes you were forced to learn about in 11th grade: Beowulf, King Arthur and his Knights, Cu Chulainn, etc.

The concept of a "standard" Marine to me is a little far fetched. Having a single template you can fall back upon ruins the individiualism of the Marine in question and takes away the sense of power he might have from simply being himself.

Well it would be required where space marines are NPC antagonists. Just as eldar and orks received single profile rules to represent them in some form

Everyone is an individual, so by that logic every NPC would need to be stated out separately.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Standardization is good with regards to giving the GM an impression what the company things the average so-and-so looks like. From a player it's not good though. Even veteran SM or rookish Dark Eldar pirates might fluctuate widely in talent (not the game mechani), equipment, specialization, etc.

This is -again- not a matter of realism; it's a matter of keeping the game more unpredictable for the players, especially after they have once fought against a certain type of enemy already.

It's entirely conceivable that a certain group of Space Marine freshmen pwns a group of SM veterans the way a team of talented first draft picks can pwn a team of seasoned players on a given night.

Alex

I like to think of the Deathwatch as functioning a bit like Battle School in Ender's Game. so the guys going in aren't 'veterans', but they are the '1 in 1000' in terms of ability that the deathwatch is looking for.

so instead of cherry picking out all the oldest and wisest space marines in a chapter and weakening it, instead they cherry pick the best of the up-and-coming 'youngsters' (100-150 years) this way of thinking may not be canon, but it fits with the idea of the elite getting elite-er

skatingtortoise said:

Nope, that fits just as well as a veteran of 500 years getting selected. What the Deathwatch is after, more than anything, is that little spark that make that Marine different from his Battle-Brothers.

I see it quite simple. You provide a "generic" Space Marine stat block, add a few modifiers (say Techmarines add this talent and skill and characteristic and trait, and so forth) and then, like with any other critter in the game, you have a baseline to start from. Want a really strong space marine, add +10 S, want a cunning trickster, add +15 INT, +10 FEL, +5 AG and so forth.

Similar to how in the back of Dark Heresy you had all those generic stats and then in different adventures you wuld have entries like: Mercenaries (Treat as Kill Squad but add +5WS, +1 Wound and Concealment +10) and so forth.

It doesnt state that all space marines are the same (though the essentially are in the table top game) but it gives you a place to start building your Space Marine NPCs and what not.

Besides, dont they have Chaos Marine stats in the game?

How do they look?

MILLANDSON said:

MILLANDSON said:

That seems to be more what they are going for, looking for potential rather than the most experienced. It might have something to with being able to opperate alone (or in small groups) without 'officers' and Chaplins.