1) Can a horde dodge or parry attacks?

No it can´t unless is in their description (hormaguant rules for example).

2) Can a horde attack enemies in melee and make ranged attacks against the same target at the same time? If so would they take the penalty for shooting into melee but also get the bonus for shooting a target within 3 meters?

Yes it can, think that in a big horde not all of the creatures are in melee with the marine at the same time. It is explain in Final sanction. , and remenber hordes NEVER benefit for the "aim" action

3) Hordes can attack all adjacent enemies in melee and make several shooting attacks as well. Do they use the same structure of full actions/half actions that the players use? For instance can a standard Rebel Horde (magnitude 30) make All Out Attacks against all adjacent enemies while taking 3 Full Auto Bursts as well? I'm not sure exactly what they're capable of.

i don´t think that hordes function like individual characters concerning full o half actions., i have not the corebook yet but i think that one special action per turn (like full atack or lightninh atack) could be the limit of actions for a horde.

If the horde is mangnitude 30, it can do melee atacks to all adjacent objectives (one to each) AND a number of range atacks equal to the first digit of magnitude.

Borin Demonslayer said:

About 2): Where does it state that a horde can make a ranged and a melee attack against the same PC? I would assume that it would be one or the other, depending on whether the PC was in close combat or not.

@Brother Praetus: Im apparently getting old as my memory keeps failing on me. I guess I didn't remember because the answer was a "No" by MILLANDSON that lacked definiteness.

Alex

Sorry if this was already asked but how are the Marines wounds calculated? Is it a set amount like DH (1d5 +18 for example) or is it more like RT (2 x TB plus 1d5)?

Thanks in advance!

d5 + 18 IIRC. It is DH rather then RT style.

1) The rules do not say that Hordes cannot attempt to parry/dodge, though since it is a single entity, as others have said, I'd rule that it could only do one dodge/parry a turn. Obviously some creatures are better at doing so than others (Hormagaunts have Dodge +10 skill, for instance).

2) Yep, a Horde can attack in melee and shoot at targets outside melee at the same time.

3) The rules state that modifiers for sustained fire in ranged combat, and they can use various melee/ranged talents, so I would say that yes, they could carry out full auto fire and All Out Attacks.

@Brother P: Nope, they don't use the Ganging-Up/Outnumbering bonus. For hordes, the high number of attacks they can do is folded into the increased damage they can do.

MILLANDSON said:

Nobody read Question #2 thoroughly enough though:

"Can a horde attack enemies in melee and make ranged attacks against the same target at the same time?"

Since a horde is to be treated like a single-entity, the answer is no, right? If they had pistol and sword they could use them in close combat but not ranged plus melee attacks against the same target, I assume.

Alex

Well, it doesn't say they can't, so I'd say that they can shoot at a target they are in combat with, though with the usual difficulties with shooting into a melee combat.

Either that or you have to consider their weapons. If they all have pistols, then sure. If they are toting basic weapons however, I don't think that they should be able to shoot at someone that is in melee with them.

Just thought of this on the way to work:

Does the book cover who the Killteam Leader is supposed to be?

I would imagine that in a group setting such as this, it would be wise to have no leader directly in charge of the group so that the players don't feel like they are being bossed around by another of their peers.

However, given that Space Marines have no compunctions about listening to the commander of a group in their own chapters, how does the book cover this notion? Especially given that each member of the Killteam comes from different chapters... I'm sure there could be some friction between the Killteam lead if he's a Space Wolf and the Ultramarine player doesn't like his method of leadership.

The leader of the Kill-Team is decided amongst the Marines, deciding who of the Team has the skills and expertise that is best suited to the mission they have been given.

What speciality the Team Leader comes from dictates which Oath they can take (all teams make an oath before going on the mission), which give the team a variety of bonuses, and also dictates what Squad Mode abilities are available for the team to use.

ak-73 said:

Upon re-reading the rules, there is an interesting statement at the beginning that would appear to support this supposition (the one about not using both ranged and melee against the same target, not the one about no one reading the question all the way through). "A Horde can make both melee attacks against enemies in close proximity and ranged attacks at enemies that are at a distance in a single turn as an attack action". This would appear to infer it is an either / or proposition.

MILLANDSON said:

The amount of cohesion available to the team is also dependent on who is the Squad Leader.

It's also nice to hear that there's nothing stopping a Horde from using the more colorful actions available to combatants. Too bad stub guns are only single shot! I think I might equip a Rebel Horde or two with lasguns in one of the more climactic encounters.

Whoa, freaky quote error!

Could you give a few examples of Squad Mode abilities deriving from oaths?

Cifer said:

Oath of the Astartes

For Tac, Assault or Dev

+2 Cohesion

Squad Mode Abilities:

Tactical Advance - Moving from one position of cover to another - counts as in cover the whole time.

Bolter Assault - The Battle Brother and those in Support Range may make an immediate Charge move and a Standard attack with a Bolt Pistol, Bolter or Storm Bolter

Tactical Spacing - The Batle brother and those in Support Range can share their reactions

So the oaths are only for "group mode"?

RyueOkami said:

Yes, the Kill Team is taking an oath together (One Oath for the whole team), limited by the Specialty of the selected leader. The oath then grants abilities to the group and the use of certain squad mode abilities.

There are two modes - Solo mode and Squad mode. While in squad mode, certain extra abilities are available as is a pool of cohesion points which is spent on executing the squad mode abilities. You (a character) can out of Squad mode freely and enter Solo mode, but to get back into Squad mode requires a successful test. Squad Mode abilities include some actions that can be taken outside of the normal turn sequence like Bolter Assault where all the group, still in Squad mode and in range can make a charge with a follow up Bolter attack.

Some of the special abilities like the Devastator's "Unrelenting Devestation" from the intro adventure, only work when you are in Squad Mode. The whole group doesn't have to be in Squad mode, any number can be either or, but Squad mode activities only count for those in Squad mode.

Darq said:

No it doesn't. The rules specifically states on p.214 that to switch from Solo Mode to Squad Mode, you need to be in Support Range (a range dictated by Rank, though between 30m (line of sight) to 120m (vocal distance)) of at least one other member of your Kill-Team, and the Kill-Team must have at least 1 point of Cohesion. You then have 2 methods of switching to Squad Mode:

1) You use a Full Action (miss your turn) to enter Squad Mode; or

2) Use a Free Action or Reaction to enter Squad Mode, though you must pass a test to do it.

Then, on page 220, it says that if you are in Squad Mode, you can join a currently sustained Squad Ability (some of them can be sustained indefinitely) as a Free Action at any time in his turn, and he will, following that Free Action, partake of any benefits the Squad Ability gives him.

You are never forced to make a test to enter Squad Mode, you only have to pass one if you don't want to skip a turn.

just um givin um an idea of um how it works...

Falchion Sensei said:

It gets absurd to think however that a horde spends a full action aiming before unleashing a hail of shots, unless the horde is a firing squad, of course.

Alex

It annoys me that the Stranglethorn Cannon and the Barbed Stranger have the exact same profile . Grr.

And that Tyranid Warriors and Hive Tyrants have to Brace before firing their bigger guns. That's just silly.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Really? Surely they have the Bulging Biceps Talent?

I have to say a lot of this Solo/Squad mode stuff sounds rather video game-ish. Maybe it's a good thing though in these times.

Now I have a quick question on Demeanors; I've read the diary stuff and looked at the demo and wondered if I'm understanding them right in saying the Personal Demeanor is akin to the Rogue Trader Motivation in just describing your personality whilst the Chapter one is similar and reflects the traditions and attidutes drilled/impressed apon you during your training.

Thus triggering a Demeanour would idealy be inspired by these. Like for example the Blood Angel from the demo has Calculating as his Personal Demeanor. His squad is about to engage a very large horde of cultists charging under a highway bridge and he spots a cargo hawler thats crashed on the bridge and hangs precariously at the edge.

His calculating nature figures out a way to shoot the bridge in such a way as to make the truck fall on the cultists and triggers his Demeanour allowing a reroll if he misses or perhaps the GM granting a bonus to hitting or damage dealt to the horde's magnitude.

That sound about right?

Darkshroud said:

I would have to see it before I truly judge, but the examples that they provided were not particularly awe-inspiring (especially when they seemed to be related to the Cohesion resource pool). It's one of the reason that someone (I cannot remember who) labelled them as "Team Awesome" powers, and I've increasingly begun to think of them as "Team America" powers because of, well, that song .

With that said, delving into video game "gimmicks" isn't entirely a bad idea as long as, IMO, you don't go too far. You remember the days of those discussions, with Marines "spawning" because it's not "cool" to die (though we have the progenoid experience thing now, as suggested by fans for half-a-decade or more), Herculean Marines because that was cool as well, etc. With a degree of moderation however...? Well, that might work. We know that Marines can upgrade their armour (or at least the Machine Spirit of the armour), which reminds me of things like Dead Space and Hellgate London (and others many other games, I'm sure). The extent to which it is technologically customisable remains to be seen (read: trend to Artificer Armour). You've also got the idea that the more you "level up" the better gadgets and weapons you're going to get (read: increased Repute allows access to more options?).

Strange, though. Demeanous kind of remind me of Skrittiblak's d20 "conversion" of 40k RPG many years ago... Ah well, just an observation.

Incidentally, the above is actually a series of questions, but most of them cannot be answered until I've seen the game since they're going to be based upon personal observation and interpretation.

Kage

I love all the stuff that Marines start out with.

1. Marines start with the following Talents and Traits:

Ambidextrous
Astartes Weapon Training
Bulging Biceps
Heightened Senses (Hearing, Sight)
Killing Strike (new Talent, no idea what it does)
Nerves of Steel
Quickdraw
Resistance (Psychic Powers)
True Grit
Unarmed Master
Unnatural Strength X2
Unnatural Toughness X2

So that's what they start with.

2. Power Armour adds the following on top of all of that:

Servo-Augmented Musculature - +20 Strength
Auto-Senses - Immune to Photon Flash and Stun Grenades, gains Darksight, Called Shots are 1/2 Actions, gains +10 to all Sight and Hearing Awareness Tests (cumulative w/Heightened Senses, for +20 over all).
Built-In Vox Link
Built-In Mag-Boots
Nutrient Recycling - Can operate for 2 weeks without resupply.
Recoil Suppression - May fire Basic Weapons 1-handed without penalty.
Size - Hulking (though that's not a penalty thanks to the Black Carapace)
Poor Manual Dexterity - Tasks that require fine manipulation are at -10 due to 'big fingers syndrome' unless the equipment has been designed for Space Marine use.
Osmotic Gill Life Sustainer - As long as you are wearing your helmet, your armour is environmentally sealed.

3. They also have a lot of skills to start with (outside of all the non-trained Basic Skills):

Awareness
Ciphers (Chapter Runes)
Climb
Common Lore (Adeptus Arbites)
Common Lore (Deathwatch)
Common Lore (Imperium)
Common Lore (War)
Concealment
Drive (Ground Vehicle)
Forbidden Lore (Xenos)
Literacy
Navigation (Surface)
Scholastic Lore (Codex Astartes)
Silent Move
Speak Language (Low Gothic)
Speak Language (High Gothic)
Tactics (not sure what this does)
Tracking

4. But that's not all, there are still all the special Marine organs, and they all provide rules:

Secondary Heart/Ossmodula/Biscopea/Haemastamen - Gain Unnatural Strength & Toughness x2
Larraman's Organ - Never suffer from Blood Loss (I wondered if they'd get this ability, and it turns out they do!).
Catalepsean Node - Do not suffer Perception-based penalties when awake for long periods of time.
Preomnor - +20 Toughness when taking Tests against ingested poisons.
Omophagea - Gain a Skill or Skill Group when devouring a portion of an enemy (how that works should be interesting to figure out).
Multi-Lung - May re-roll any failed Test for drowning or asphyxiation. Also gain +30 to all Tests to resist gasses and may re-roll failed results.
Occulobe/Lyman's Ear - This is what gives you the Heightened Senses (Sight & Hearing).
Sus-an Membrane - May enter suspended animation!
Oolitic Kidney - May re-roll all failed tests to resist toxins and poisons, including weapon attacks that have the Toxic Quality.
Neuroglottis - May detect any toxin or poison by taste with a successful Awareness Test. +10 to Tracking against a target you have tasted.
Mucranoid - Re-roll any failed Toughness Test required within extreme temperatures.
Betcher's Gland - May spit acid as a ranged weapon, R3m, Dam D5, Pen 4, Toxic and if you hit your target with 3 DOS or more, you blind them for 1D5 rounds.
Progenoids - Retrieved with a successful Medicae test, and can be used to generate a new character of a level equal to the rest of the squad when your character dies.
Black Carapace - The Black Carapace allows you to move inside the Power Armour with such speed and grace that the enemy do not gain the +10 To Hit when attacking you despite being Hulking.


Sadly they're missing the Melanochrome... Oh well. Can't have everything.

BYE

ak-73 said:

Actually under the rules for Hordes in Final Sanction it says that Hordes cannot Aim. So, not so bad.