And that, for me, is an insightful post.

Kage

strimen said:

Why? There are several websites dedicated to selling RPG PDFs already. Just check out DrivethruRPG or RPGNow. Why go to Amazon/Apply and pay them royalties to have your books up there when there are dedicated sites for the roleplay hobby already?

Immediacy, MILLANDSON. Immediacy. That and obviously there is a disparity (perceived) between release of hard copy and electronic copy. (Regardless of where there is an institutional retardation in there as well! Err, like there may be with movies and TV shows... Moving swiftly on!)

Of course, ebook's royally suck at PDF support at the moment. We've got a while's to go before that becomes a real issue...

PIRACY IS WRONG!

Perhaps closed mindedness is as well?

Kage

I don't disagree that it'd be nice for the PDF to be out at the same time as the book. I have never said I disagree with it, so your comment about "closed mindedness" is neither required, accurate nor appreciated. Even if it were to be released at the same time as the book, why should FFG pay more money for Amazon and Apple to host the book, when RPGNow/DriveThruRPG does a brilliant job by itself, and is a repository of all RPG PDFs, making it not only a one-stop-shop, but means that RPG companies don't have to pay multiple sets of royalties/fees for several stores to host their games, when one store does it fine.

Given that, through purchases of special "charity" lots of PDFs over a one month period, DriveThruRPG managed to donate $190k to Doctors Without Borders to help with Haiti relief, I believe enough people know about and go to DriveThruRPG that alternate stores are not needed, as that would just serve to split up the RPG PDF section of the industry as different publishers go to different stores.

Better one big place for all RPG PDFs, than several stores selling only a couple each.

Either way, regardless of all this, just because the PDF might not be coming out at the same time as the book does not give anyone the justification to illegally pirate it. You do like everyone else does if they don't want to pay to see a movie in the cinema, wait for the DVD (or PDF in this case) to come out. Being impatient =/= a good reason to break the law.

I feel that Kage's comments are required, accurate, and quite appreciated on this front. By putting the legal copy of the PDF out later that the book, I believe I have demonstrated quite readily why some people pirate games. It's not in some big effort to kill the company, hurt their feelings, or even really being impatient. I want to pay for the game, and I most likely will be. However, I will not buy a physical copy as it's useless and old school as I and others have commented upon already. If the PDF will be out around the same time as pirated copies would be, I still don't see why it's important to release the PDF later. Any way you go about it, there is going to be pirating. With the internet the way it is, and with computers the way they are, there is nothing that is going to stop it. So, why potentially loose customers by forcing them to wait for a product that would have already been out for a couple months?

You continue to completely ignore my question of where I should complain to get my two cents in, since you have already mentioned that this forum is not the place for such. Frankly with your responses so far, I'm glad that this isn't the place to complain, because nothing would get done. You say that you do not disagree, and yet you continue to "make excuses" for the company and not tell us where to register an official complaint. You read and quoted the first couple of sentences of my couple paragraph post, and quickly jumped on the "nerd-rage" ban wagon, saying I was breaking the law when I have done no such thing.

So, unless you can post something constructive; rather than either making excuses for the company, or flaming pirating of games (when regardless of what anyone is going to do, it will happen). Could you please stop making this continue Millandson? Others agree with my point, and would like to register a formal complaint, so they are trying to do so. If you agree that the PDF should be out at the same time, why argue any points?

Kagra said:

The best place to submit a complaint or suggestion would be FFG Customer Service, which you would have noticed had you not been singling me out and telling me to basically shut up because I disagree with you about piracy. The link can be found here: Linky

You will also notice I wasn't arguing about the PDF being out at the same time, but about pirating the book if you don't get your way. That is the point I was arguing about, because piracy in this case is neither morally justified, and advocation of piracy is a breach of the rules on this board and grounds for banning, hence my repeated suggestions that people not out and out advocate it, as it will merely result in FFG locking the thread and possibly banning those advocating such an act. Generally it's not a good move to get banned if you want your point to be heard.

At this late juncture though, it's almost assured that the PDF will come out later than the book, as RPGNow/DriveThruRPG have to put all products though quality control, etc, before putting it on sale, and FFG have to get Games Workshop approval to publish their products. If you want Games Workshop to change their policy for future books, you'll have to contact their Customer Support and/or Investor/Business Relations departments in order for them to hear you, given that Games Workshop do not peruse these boards. These can be found on the Games Workshop website

I would appreciate you then keep your discussion to the topic in hand, rather than writing an entire post about how I personally should shut up just because I apparently disagree over piracy with the majority (as though you assume the majority of people who posted in this thread (about 10 people or so) are a majority of anything bigger than that), as I have not done the discourteousy of calling you out as an individual and making personal comments about you that you have to me.

MILLANDSON said:

Okay, it's readily apparent that you have taken everything I have said up to this point rather personally. I mention piracy will happen, and you can't get past that at all, it's like you're stuck on that fact. I asked you to stop nerd raging, and focusing in on one part of a post, which by what you quoted of me saying (which I never did) you can't. I also asked you to stop "making excuses" for the company, when you feel the PDF should be out as well; which also tied into the arguments you were having with Stirman and Kage about where they should sell the PDFs. I thank you for the information about where to post to get my complaint looked at, but that was definitely a bad way of going at it. I would also like to point out, none of that information had ever been posted elsewhere, so your comment about me not seeing something, because I was too focused on flaming you was unfounded. I also thank you for pointing out that I should not even mention piracy at all, in any way if I want someone to actually think rationally and answer my question.

Kagra said:

I have to agree with Millandson, the comments were not needed.

Kagra said:

That's you saying your going to pirate the game. Buying the legal PDF after the fact is irrelevant. Your argument revolves around your being impatient and not wanting to wait for a proper, screened for errors, no pages missing or out of order PDF copy of a book you don't want to pay for and your willingness to steal it.

Regardless of what your personal opinion is, the fact remains, the vast majority of people want the hard copy of the book and that is what makes FFG money. Sales numbers are what drives availability. When demand gets high enough PDF releases will become a greater priority. Personally, I think FFG's track record with PDF's is pretty outstanding. The fact that they have gotten all the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader books out like they have, as fast as they have, is impressive. As Millandson mentioned, Apple and Amazon take big cuts out of ebook sales over their proprietary platforms. Those books are basically glorified Word documents typed up by a couple of writers. Do you want just a text file? If not, learn some patience, be civil, voice your suggestions to FFG, and wait for the product you want to become available.

As for registering a complaint, or a suggestion as the case may be, you seem to have failed to put forth the most minimal of effort to find the links at the bottom of the page that say Contact and User Support. Contacting and making your suggestions directly to the company you are complaining about is a much quicker avenue to resolve whatever concerns you may have than posting on a user forum.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Everyone keeps quoting that one line out of the multi-paragraph post and saying "you're a pirate"; which if you would have read further on is not the truth.

Kagra said:

This is me saying that, because the legal copy won't be out on time, I can see why some people would turn to piracy. This is me saying that I might not even buy the legal PDF, or get any copy of the game, because I would have to wait for it. Instead, I would just borrow the copy of whoever I was playing with to create a character, or just not play at all.

MILLANDSON said:

I would like to add that FFG certainly knows that many of their die-hard fans will

a) buy the book, having pre-ordered it already

and

b) take a look at a pirated pdf if it becomes available before their copy arrives.

Any other belief behind the scenes would be naive. You have to take a different official stance , of course. And enforce it.

It's just that a game company has to draw a line; it is unlikely to have too much tolerance for people stating they'll use a pirated copy on their forums, even if only temporarily.

That said, I am sure that if Kagra was to state that he has changed his mind and that he is certain now that he won't get a pirated copy and will wait patiently for his book to arrive instead everything will be fine again. <wink, wink>

As for the issue itself, I think it makes sense for a game company to do it the way FFG has done it; no need to release a PDF version early on and make it easy for the pirates. The least you can do is make them work if they want to pirate the game early on.

Alex

MILLANDSON said:

so it´s called Impatient when I expect good service from a company? That I don´t just blindly accepts the 60$ price tag as the one sales option when I know a cheaper, affordable PDF could have been available.

I have followed the RPG piracy debate on many sites and all debates shows the same trend, more then half of everyone who emit to pirating a rulebook claim they did so because of the price, heck some emit they bought a legal copy of the same book once it was out for sale or threw a cheaper, legal PDF. Trust me not every pirate is some scum sucking person who does what he does out of purest greed, some are simply forced because company like FFG effectively forces them to.

So sorry but saying PDF delay is because of Piracy is just...BS...when you come to me and say it´s because FFG and GW wanna exploit hype to herd fans into buying a ridicliusly expensive rule book, then I´ll buy it.

remmus said:

If I compare what I have paid back in the days for a thick rulebook and look at the price of Deathwatch now, figuring in inflation and the neat design of the 40K roleplay books, I can't complain. Prices have always been too high for gamers also. :-)

I should add that my remarks might not be fair though because the euro is still fairly strong against the dollar.

Alex

ak-73 said:

well that´s kinda the benefit of co releasing a PDF form, obviusly it would land somewhere betwen 25-30$, that´s 50% or more of the book price and ridicliusly cheap, thus anyone left out because if a thin wallet is caught in the PDF web. It this model we see now the movie, music and game industry is doing and all three are thriving despite a active piracy community.

remmus said:

No, it's called impatient when you seek out illegal methods of obtaining something when the legal method isn't yet available. "I want to buy this, but I can't yet, so I'll steal it instead" is not the creed of a patient man.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

still doesn´t explain the fact why I need to be a patient man to begin with.

I'm not sure how piracy has anything to do with wanting a .pdf version. To me it's simply an alternate media.

Heck if I was FFG I'd release the .pdf BEFORE the hard copy because people will buy it and the book, too. Though their marketing folks probably know better than me on that.

I also doubt that GW has much influence of FFG's business decisions as FFG has e a license for the IP, they're not a subsidiary.

darknite said:

plus even if they did the release date is often nailed months before we know it so any deals and agreements needed to be done for a PDF could easly be cordinated with the print release.

well hopefully my complaint I sent to there support will bare fruit, heck maybe we can get a offical word from them on this, so far we are only working on speculations and asumtions there will be months between print and PDF release.

darknite said:

And GW retains a lot of control over the license and how FFG are allowed to use it, covering more than just the contents of the books, etc.

So:

• The original poster (Kagra) should retract or edit his post since it is against the forum rules. Check. Problem is that they cannot edit a post, so pretty much make an open apology and retraction (see ak-73's post).
• Piracy is bad. We all know that.
• Modern "online" culture is about immediacy. Pay per view. Pay on demand. Print on demand. Electronic distribution. iTunes. Steam. B&N. Kindle. I want it now and I want it in a format that I want it in.
• People don't want to wait for marketing strategy
• Corporate entities have yet to fully catch up with the pace of technology.
• FFG have done, for a GW licensee, done a stonking (read: very good) job of getting the materials to PDF. One hopes that this is a reflection of picking up the pace.
• There are individuals out there that want everything for free. These "pirates" are bad. They probably don't even have a talking parrot.
• End of story.
• ...
• ..
• .
• Still. Seems strange to slam a "pirate" for saying that they really, really want to buy the game. And, further, they are going to.
• Seems like a positive step forwards in terms of the "very bad pirates."
• Kagra should post to FFG customer support and request that the PDF be released at the same time and not some months afterwards.
• Creating a PDF of the "final product" requires some mouse clicking and then hinting "Print." AFAIK, "watermarking" (the common security technique employed by their authorised retailer) an external process that does not enhance this time, but is made on purchase.
• This thread has been done to death.
• So has almost every other thread dealing with the 40k universe, though that doesn't stop them.
• Not wanting to pay the price tag of the book doesn't strike me as the bets of arguments since you can get them for about 2/3 the cost on Amazon.com. Instead, it's an alternative type of media (as someone else pointed out earlier).
• The problem is more than likely going to intensify when PDF-accessibility improves on e-readers or we begin to see more common two-screen readers with touchscreen, markup, etc.
• Suggesting that open forum discussion is "unnecessary" can be construed as... No, I shall leave that comment.
• Red Hat games, IIRC, released a PDF "pre-press" version of the game for customers that had pre-ordered (IIRC). Interesting.
• People should watch the film Antitrust . Not that it's applicable here, mostly, but it's a fun film. YMMV.
• Seems that "pirates" and "corporate entities" probably need to keep on discussing the issue.
• Wonder if there is a way that you could "rent" a PDF for a short period of time so that you could preview the rather expensive games before you buy them.
• The very bad pirates will get around that.
• The honest person is caught in the middle.

Anyway, I'm sure that we will see some more rabid posting. Personally I would be more interested in seeing the concept of digital media advanced because, well, it's what I buy when it comes down to RPGs. I don't have an e-reader at the moment, but when they reach the usability level that would mean that I could take them into the field for reference, then I'm so there... and I'll use them for RPG PDFs as well. (And we're getting so close.)

Kage

Note that I only recommended a retraction, not an apology.

I'm sure that FFG wouldn't want to alienate their die-hard gamers, yet at the same time make sure that minimum standards were kept ( no open endorsement of piracy of their products for any reason?).

That's why I thought a retraction might settle the issue in an amicable way?

Alex

Kage2020 said:

Actually, that is fairly easy to do. Just look at any piece of software released for evaluation. They often work for a number of days (typically 30) or a number of actual uses/opens (also commonly limited to 30). Such a solution would not require much effort, and could even be worked out with the distribution sites so that the "rental fee" was counted much as a video game pre-order. Pay $5 for a preview copy of a game book in PDF, if you buy the "licensed-copy" later of it the $5 still counts as part of your payment for the book.

I think a couple of companies have tried it before.

-=Brother Praetus=-

@Remmus

Trust me not every pirate is some scum sucking person who does what he does out of purest greed, some are simply forced because company like FFG effectively forces them to.

I guess that's the biggest praise one can heap on FFG's marketing and production departments. They make a product so good, if you can't afford it, you're forced to obtain it in other ways.
Um... no, I don't quite buy that. RPGs are a luxury good. They're not in any way essential to living. If you disagree with the price, the quality, the medium or anything else of the product... I don't think you'll starve if you simply don't buy it.

There's quite an interesting debate going on whether there may be other forms of fairly compensating the developers of intellectual goods for their work, but piracy isn't exactly like stealing a bread to survive.

Cifer said:

That is basically my argument. If you want the PDF, you aren't "forced" to steal it, you merely wait for it. It's your choice to want it in an alternate medium, but just because it isn't provided straight away in no way justifies you taking it without paying, even if it is only until you can pay for it.

Brother Praetus ... I'm guessing, however, that the experiment didn't go very well or at least isn't still in operation? Either way, one still has to wonder how the business is going to go and if they're ever going to consider Kindle-esque downloads (when the technology gets there).

As to the other stuff? More nastiness abounds. One has to wonder how many people, of the people taking the high ground, have dubiously acquired content on their machines. I would be surprised to find out that "none" would be the answer.

Kage

And they'd be lieing Kage. Everyone had one piece of software, an mp3, a video he got from a friend, a something that violate copyrights. If they say they don't, they are lieing hypocrites