Lucius Valerius said:

You can be sure that I buy products if I want more of it (a sequel, additional sourcebooks, etc). Good work needs to be rewarded.

Alex

ak-73 said:

So do I but that doesn't mean both of us don't have copyrighted material on our HDs. Let's be real here guys lol

Cifer said:

I don´t see why a rulebook has to be a luxury goods in the 21 century nor why it needs to, by co releasing a PDF your giving people with a thiner wallet a fair chance to aquire your product fair and square. As I said before it´s been clealry noted that piracy of medias like music, movies etc has been reducing thanks to companies using cheap ways of disturating there products.

so for me claiming Piracy is the reason they delay a PDF is BS

I don´t see why a rulebook has to be a luxury goods in the 21 century nor why it needs to, by co releasing a PDF your giving people with a thiner wallet a fair chance to aquire your product fair and square. As I said before it´s been clealry noted that piracy of medias like music, movies etc has been reducing thanks to companies using cheap ways of disturating there products.

It's a luxury good in the same way that movies, books of fiction, toys, video games and others are: They're not in any way essential to living. They're not food we need in order not to starve, they're not medicine we need in order not to get sick, they're not shelter or clothes we need to not freeze to death. They're for our enjoyment, nothing more.

I'm not commenting on my own stance on or using of pirated goods, but please don't pretend that FFG in any way "forced" you or anyone else to pirate stuff. Because in that case, I'd seriously recommend taking a step away from the hobby and possibly seeking out help.

so for me claiming Piracy is the reason they delay a PDF is BS

Well, there's an obvious second reason (well, third, considering that whole getting-GW-approval and having-PDF-quality-checked): Money. I'd assume that FFG makes more money from a hardcopy than a PDF, so for all those people that are indifferent to what version they'll use, but won't buy both, releasing the more expensive version first makes sense - just like most novels are first released in hardcover and later in paperback version.

Cifer said:

well exuse me for expecting a company to provide good service, as I said before so far no reason mention so far justify who people have to wait for a PDF version, so if there is no reason why do I need pations to wait to begin with? I can understand the delay if there really was a logical reason behind the delay, but since there isn´t why should I have to wait, I´m the customer.

Cifer said:

yeah because broadning the amount of people who can buy your product at launch by having a cheaper, affordable PDF that saves the company on printing cost is so gonna make you loose money [/sarcasm]

well exuse me for expecting a company to provide good service, as I said before so far no reason mention so far justify who people have to wait for a PDF version, so if there is no reason why do I need pations to wait to begin with? I can understand the delay if there really was a logical reason behind the delay, but since there isn´t why should I have to wait, I´m the customer.

Um... FFG owes you the same thing you owe them: Nothing. If you don't agree with their policy, vote with your wallet - but this doesn't entitle you to anything else than not buying from them.

yeah because broadning the amount of people who can buy your product at launch by having a cheaper, affordable PDF that saves the company on printing cost is so gonna make you loose money [/sarcasm]

Do you have the cost figures for printing the books? Do you know how many customers will simply buy the first and only the first available form of the product? Because I don't, but perhaps you can enlighten me. Making a product available for different costs at different times isn't exactly the newest marketing strategy ever.

remmus said:

Actually, the profit margin on PDFs is a lot smaller than on books, because people will tend to be willing to spend a lot more on books than they are willing to spend on a PDF. So yes, depending on the product or company, PDFs can lose you money.

And despite what you might think "I'm the customer, they should do what I want" isn't a good argument either. The whole "the customer is always right" thing is a pile of rubbish, as the customer is not always right, and quite often isn't. Also, FFG isn't just beholden to you, they are beholden to investors, Games Workshop (whose licensing agreements are known to be strict as all hell), and several other groups before "what the customer wants" comes along. If they want to release the PDF later, that's what they'll do. What you are doing is arguing "I want to see a film now, but I don't want to see it at the cinema. I want it on DVD now, and I don't see why I should wait for the DVD, because I'm the customer. Therefore, I can pirate the film and it's alright because the company should have released the DVD sooner". You have to wait for the DVD to come out after the movie has been in cinemas for those who want to pay more to see it on the silver screen, and similarly, in this case, you have to wait for the PDF to come out after the book has been released for those who want to pay more for a physical copy.

And honestly, yea, as Cifer said, RPGs are a luxury good. You don't need them to survive, and you are in no way entitled to them. Suggesting that you are being "forced" to pirate them suggests that you not only think that the Deathwatch RPG is essential for your continued existence, but also that you are entitled to the game in any form you want, regardless of FFG/GW's opinion, neither of which is the case.

MILLANDSON said:

you seam to forget the other end, expenses, for each PDF they sell it be one book less they had to pay the expenses to print out, so I can´t see how they loose money since in the other end they have to spend less money.

MILLANDSON said:

there is a diffrence between when patiense is justfied or not, if there are legitiment, technical reasons for delaying between one format to another, in the movie industry there is a huge diffrence between the movie you see in a cinema and the one you buy on a DVD, there it makes sense there is a delay between cinema and DVD. But in the case of Deathwatch there is none, heck as someone so astute pointed out FFG would have a digital copy of the book done before sending it to print. There is no logical or logistical reason why a PDF is delayed.

Yeah I know it´s a luxery item, I simply find the debate would be unfair and frankly biased if we comapre a luxery ware to nececities becuse duh nececities are well...nececary.

No Deathwatch is to stand and compare with other luxury wares and there it is sorly lacking.

remmus said:

Just because you have PDFs out doesn't mean they print out less copies of the book. For a title such as Deathwatch, you can guarantee that, regardless of how many they print out, they'll have to print out more later. Releasing PDFs at the beginning, however, could make lots of people who would have just bought the book buy the PDF instead, and so leave copies just sitting around in the warehouse because people decided to go for the cheaper option.

Also, the cinema industry isn't that different. Back when VHS of movies were being first released, they did try seeing how releasing the video at the same time as the movie went. It just ended up going badly because, in many cases, people bought the VHS rather than going to the cinema, and it's the cinema that makes film-makers most of the money.

And for your second comment... if you say so. From where I'm sitting, it's probably got the best production value of any of the 40k RPG line, and this is coming from someone who generally prefers normal humans to Space Marines, and loves Rogue Trader. If you want to pirate it because you don't want to wait for the PDF to be released, go ahead, I won't stop you. Just don't try to justify it as being "forced" to do so.

MILLANDSON said:

well that´s a mistake on there end, as someone cleverly pointed out why not make the printed version a on demand product?

MILLANDSON said:

cinema, cinema, cinema...is that the only media industry that comes to your mind?

How about the Game industry, or the music industry? Both are cases of industries that sell digital copies of there products for a reduced price around the same time as there physical version, yet at least the game industry have been racing past the movie industry in value, and that´s despite being hited as hard as the movie industry by Piracy.

@remmus

you seam to forget the other end, expenses, for each PDF they sell it be one book less they had to pay the expenses to print out, so I can´t see how they loose money since in the other end they have to spend less money.

The word "profit margin" already implies taking into account pruduction cost. "It's cheaper to produce and it sells for less" doesn't mean you arrive at the same number in the end.

there is a diffrence between when patiense is justfied or not, if there are legitiment, technical reasons for delaying between one format to another, in the movie industry there is a huge diffrence between the movie you see in a cinema and the one you buy on a DVD, there it makes sense there is a delay between cinema and DVD. But in the case of Deathwatch there is none, heck as someone so astute pointed out FFG would have a digital copy of the book done before sending it to print. There is no logical or logistical reason why a PDF is delayed.

So you don't think a DVD could come out a lot sooner than it does? No, that's a purely financial consideration.

Yeah I know it´s a luxery item, I simply find the debate would be unfair and frankly biased if we comapre a luxery ware to nececities becuse duh nececities are well...nececary.

It's good that you know that now because a few posts back, you didn't seem to. And noone compared it to a necessity but you who said that FFG forced you to obtain it otherwise, indicating that you had no choice but to pirate it.

No Deathwatch is to stand and compare with other luxury wares and there it is sorly lacking.

Then don't buy it! I'd assume that if more people stepped away from their "It must be mine!"-mentality if the products didn't warrant it, we'd be getting better products. Don't buy the game if you don't think it's worth it, don't buy the game if you don't think the company is worth it. Vote with your wallet, post to GW and FFG in a polite tone why you didn't buy it and maybe you'll end up making the industry care about our demands.
That still doesn't give you any reason at all to pirate it.

well that´s a mistake on there end, as someone cleverly pointed out why not make the printed version a on demand product?

Mind elaborating on that? If you mean it should be printed on demand... can you imagine the costs involved with printing runs that small? That would make the game a real luxury.

How about the Game industry, or the music industry? Both are cases of industries that sell digital copies of there products for a reduced price around the same time as there physical version, yet at least the game industry have been racing past the movie industry in value, and that´s despite being hited as hard as the movie industry by Piracy.

Both are also different since the production cost of a cd is already somewhere below one cent.

Cifer said:

well allot of why the book cost 60$ are purly luxury stuff (paper, print etc) that you don´t technically need to play the game, so why not make a big, cumbersome but still nice book the luxury option and have a PDF being the more affordable option for those who just want the meat, a nicly precentaded role playing game to enjoy with your buddies?

Cifer said:

it´s no more exensive then making a DVD movie, yet the movie industry delays but the gameing and music industry don´t, so I can´t see how production cost is the diffrence between movie and other media industries and why one industry delay parts of the product while some don´t.

remmus said:

Sure, once the PDF is finished, and approved for sale, there is not much more expense on that end. However, just like production of a hardcopy, there are still expenses.

You have to pay for bandwidth, hosting, support staff for the hardware and software. Computer hardware, internet connectivity and IT staff are all still very expensive to invest in and employ. It is actually more expensive than printing, assembling, storing and shipping a physical copy of said book at this time. We're also talking about what is currently a slowly growing niche market within a niche market.

As to "each PDF is one less book they need to print," well, not necessarily. I have at least one copy of every book currently in hardcopy, and most I have also purchased the PDFs from DriveThru as well. Why do I have multiple copies? Because at home, I would rather crack open a book and read. PDF's to me are for ease of transport since I lack the space to host games. They are not the primary or preferred medium for most gamers yet.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

well that´s why such selling is outsourced to companies like DrivethruRPG so that the fees for such becomes more minimal then if FFG where to host all on there own.

also while on the money subject, a cheaper PDF would ensure more income per roleplaying group.

normally in a group of 5-7 players only one buys the book and the rest borrow it to save cash (because face it 60$ whatever book it is, is expensive for being a book).

but say a PDF was avaible at launch for a more accessable price (say 25-30$) then it be more viable everyone get a PDF and sudenly per each RPG group you could earn somewhere between

125-210$

Cifer said:

well first of boykoting a product by not buying it doesn´t work, there clearly enought fans here that pay 200$ for a book just out of pure, blind fandom if that was the case, second such boykot would be aimed at showing discontent with the product. This is about being discontent with the company and there clearly unfair and ilogical buisness model. I plan to buy the game (heck even if I pirate a free PDF first) because I´m sure the quality of the product will be good and i want to support that.

It would be childish to deny just pay for the hard work of the team behind Deathwatch, my anger is against the guys and gals behind the decision to delay a PDF, not the once who made the game. That is why I raise my voice rather then lower my wallet.

remmus said:

Don't need a CE, if I someone would offer it to me, I'd pay an additional 10 Euros, no more.

As for a boycott: what you just said holds for other areas of life too and it's in such cases a self-fulfilling prophecy. Moving away from Deathwatch, if you feel boycotting a product and don't do it because you think it won't work, chances are there's a number of people who feel the name and won't boycott it because they also think it won't work.

In general if a company (game or otherwise) notices a dent in their sales and can attribute that with some certainty to a specific cause, they will at least consider a way to addressing that problem, meeting consumer demand. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if there was a large enough demand from female players female SMs would be introduced in no short time by GW. No sufficient outcry, no need to squeeze female marines into the setting.

Alex

Spend a day looking at museums and suddenly the discussion seems to come down to apples and oranges. Weird how that happens.

Might as well ask why the product lines all utilise the same formula as to what products are released. Presumably it worked well for them with DH so they're going to use the same formula to make it work well for their other product lines. They are, after all, a business that is out to make money.

Of course, with that said, it is interesting to see comments along the lines of, "most people don't want PDF" when coupled with the argument that PDF is going to negatively impact upon sales. After all, the only way that it is negatively going to impact upon sales figures is if either people actually do want PDF and people are using their own preferences as a yard-stick, or that the majority of customers want the product but don't want to pay for it (i.e. they are are more inclined to pirate in which case the release of PDF just makes it easier and the implication is that there is a threshold for sales in which after a certain point you've sold the majority of the run).

I'm not saying either way that one or is more or less advantageous of the others, it just does seem to be a discrepancy in the arguments being presented.

With that said, however, I will merely repeat the wondering whether development of the "on-demand" industry seen with the publication industry is going to begin to alter the way that companies begin to approach this question. Obviously now the shift towards PDF sales is a generally good move forwards (admittedly, in my mind if no one elses), but it may only just be the first move amongst a number.

YMMV, as always, of course.

Kage

PDFs are great. As far as costs are concerned, the cost to create PDF for Print and PDF for Resale is 0, as in most cases it will be the same build files. There may be a cost difference if an organisations aim is to produce the book straight for PDF, rather then print though.

PDF download would be good, as it's nice just to collate the bits you need for PCs, but I wouldn't buy a book and a pdf copy, it's one or the other, and tbh I mostly opt for the book, nowt better then the smell of a brand new rpg book.

As to whether a PDF release would result in more sales then a hardcopy, I believe this is dubious. What it may achieve if the pdf is substantially lower then the hardcopy is players within gaming groups to also perhaps pick up a PDF.

Gone are the days (in my mind anyway) where several players would own a copy of a game system. Back in the D&D days, everyone had a PHB, but as new releases came out, less and less groups had multiple copies.

FatPob said:

Sell one hardcopy (optionally more) in a bundle with 3-6 pdfs at a reduced price.

Alex

FatPob said:

They are? Sucks to be in your group then I guess, all but one of my players had Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader rulebooks, and most of them had supplements too. Why would a group only want one copy of the book between 4+ people?

Maybe it's just that my players are really into their RPGs

MILLANDSON said:

Bourgeosie.

Alex

MILLANDSON said:

Or have more cash/resources to be able to buy these things? Or aren't married, don't have children, aren't trying to impress their girlfriends/boyfriends, or any number of other possibilities...

The only times that I bought a game that the GM owned was when I, too, was thinking about GMing the game and I needed more face-time with it. Then again, in modern gaming (more my experience here than not), PDF have far more advantages in terms of remote desktoping than having to share out a copy of the book.

I would say that "I guess my players were more nerdy," but I think it would be difficult to assess nerdiness between different play groups.

More seriously, it once again just points out that different media have different utilisations that need to be established as part of the play-flow of a group. I used to remember only the GM having a copy of the game book and not liking it when the players bought their own version (politeness was such that you asked if you could get a copy because you were thinking of a GMing a game). Certain games multiple copies were bought, as before, by the people interested in GMing, but even then very, very rarely did everyone own a copy of the books. In the past this really just meant that we could explore more games? Person A bought AD&D , while Person B could get a copy of Shadowrun , meaning that Person C could get Vampire the Masequerade , and Person D, who we don't talk to too often, could get Elfquest .

Now it just depends on how the group "meets" and "plays/operates." I'm going to have to stop there for that one, though, for what might be obvious reasons to some, or what might lead others to lay down the smack/accusations.

Still, though, makes some of the arguments seem a bit... well, strange. With that said, if FFG want to push the hardcopy before making another media versions available? Power to them. It's their company. And as long as everyone that uses the game has ensured that they have paid the the artists, through FFG, the money from a game they get enjoyment from (or use, if nothing else), then the concept is fairly issues. Pirates are always going to pirate, and people who don't want to pay for something aren't going to. The only people who get their nose-thumbed are those that only want the PDF, a situation that might change with "on demand" and "immediate purchase" technologies and services. (And one would certainly hope so...)

I would personally prefer same-day release, but then again we've already seen one person that would pick up the PDF, but wouldn't pick up the PDF and the book (I'm also one of those), so maybe that would be a bad thing in FFG's eyes. They've just got to put up with the frustrations of people that have to wait because they don't want to for whatever reason buy a hardcopy book, smell notwithstanding.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Actually, most of them are either married with kids, or are students, and so decide to do without other things because RPG books are a better entertainment investment than most other types of entertainment Nothing to do with having more cash/resources, all down to how they chose to use what money they do have.

@ak-47: I'd appreciate it if you didn't bring ideas of class and politics into this. I mean, isn't the argument bad enough without you basically judging people without knowing anything about them based purely on how they decide to spend their money?

MILLANDSON said:

I thought it would be apparent enough that this was said in jest, if it wasnt't, that's my mistake, sorry. A definition of bourgeoisie would have to look slightly different from gamers who each have their own core rulebook, don't you think?

Alex

Kage2020 said:

Really? You had to ask permission to buy a book you were interested in? Wow, that is. . . I can't comprehend being around and gaming with people like that.