The Pirates don't seem that great - Troll Slayers looks like a better pick for the same job. The Serpent Slayers, on the other hand, seem like they could be a pretty solid finisher. They don't die to Master Rune of Spite and when you power them up they are going to hit for a minimum of 5 damage. That's a hell of a lot for 4 resources. Sure, you have to develop your battlefield a lot but Mining Tunnels usually means you're excited at the prospect of developing like a madman anyway. The rest of the Dwarf cards are kind of meh but that's ok, Santa has been paying a lot of visits to Karaz-a-Karak recently. It's time for the other factions to get some love.

I'm wondering what happens if I use Rodrik Raiders' ability to face down a hex or a desease on my unit.

I think that it would turn into a dev in your zone.

Getting mine on Tuesday, HOORAY HAVING FRIENDS AT GENCON!!! lol

If people are willing to send me paypal payments, I could, in theory, pick up several and just mail them out to you (but it would probably be cheaper just to wait for another month and get it then via some inexpensive online retailers).

Slave Pen is rediculous with Necromancy and may force people to play even more support hate possibly making the metagame that much more difficult for Bolt Thrower. It is ingenious actually. Instead of solving Bolt Thrower directly, force a change in the metagame that splash damages BT. Another support oriented deck that can beats rush (don't know if this is the case yet) would certainly do that.

All SP is going to do is make Destructo Thrower stronger. It's like saying that to end trash production, we're going to build a second mountain of trash and maybe people will notice there's a problem and be motivated to fix it.

It's not going to solve the Rock-Paper-Scissors problem, it just gives Paper a second deck.

The flaw in your argument is that you assume a Rock-Paper-Scissors scenario is a problem. I would say that that situation is desirable. It is better to have that as opposed to one deck that is absolutely dominant like Skaven/Orc rush was before High Elves and Dark Elves got a board. Any format that makes rush weaker, inherently makes Bolt Thrower weaker as more decks can pack slower, more powerful effects against it. Grimgor being one example.

darkdeal said:

What's another example? I'm not trolling, I really don't know at this point.

I should note that right now the only thing we have that beats our latest Thrower list is pretty much rush with a good draw (and it doesn't hit 50%). Maybe Dwarves with High Elves Disdain can do it but I don't think it's going to get there - 2 loyalty on Disdain is just too painful.

The thing is, if those decks place in more slow-building stuff (like Grimgore), they're going to lost to Rush (like admittedly they were already). It would be healthier if there was a way to make most decks fairly viable against one another and play is the deciding factor.

Now, let it be stated that I applaud the amount of decision-making and the effect of play in the game already, I just get frustrated when I sit down at a table, look across and just see a capital board and go "****."

Clamatius said:

If Empire were able to compete (they can't with rush around), they could slow play against Bolt Thrower. Move all of your devs from your kingdom to your battlefield and you are pretty gimpy if you can then not pay for bolt thrower activations. There are also slower strategies that could seriously attack your drawing abilities. If Bolt Thrower is stuck on drawing one a turn, they will lose. There will also undoubtedly be new cards that come out that would be good against bolt thrower if rush were not around like it is. That is the argument I hear all the time by people who say the Bolt Thrower deck is so good. " I think you can build decks that are a bad matchup for Thrower, it's just that they are bad against the rest of the field. Orc/Skaven is pretty much the only deck that "naturally" has a non-horrible matchup as far as I can tell. I agree with ddm that it's probably still less than 50% though." - Clamatius. The "rest of the field" that they are bad against is basically rush.

Even Dwarves, as you say, can play Disdain. Given the time in the game, you can just play out dudes with Toughness. The only thing you have to have the Disdain for is Flames of the Phoenix. If Disdain gets cut from the Bolt Thrower deck, that becomes an even better plan. Even then, if you have a draw engine of 3 cards, you can just continually loop a Disdain, Order in Chaos, and still get another draw assuming you have another Order in Chaos in the discard pile.

If orcs could get more time they could play a legitimate Rock Lobber strategy against Bolt Thrower. But to play that card just gives you worse draws against a dedicated rush deck.

All of this banter could be completely moot though, as the Bolt Thrower deck itself could adapt and figure a way to become more resilient.

swingjunkie said:

That was the point in my argument. If rush loses to enough decks in the field, then it will be safer to play decks that lose to rush as there will be fewer rush decks.

Also, play skill will never be the sole deciding factor as card games rely on luck to a great extent, not that that is a bad thing. The luck factor is what makes it so the same people do not win every single tournament. Sometimes, the best player just gets some bad beats.

Did the expansion come in triplicate LCG format? or is it in the standard buy 3 copies...

FiendishDevil said:

Triplicate. We already know that.

This set is pretty solid as I picked mine up at GenCon and was not disappointed at all. Still, like some have said, it's not good enough to beat Thrower decks. To be honest, rush decks aren't even the problem. The Thrower decks (mine, and others) were beating Orc/Skaven even when they burned a zone on turn 2-3. Once you get to a certain point in the game, typically turn 3, you can't damage them any more. You are absolutely forced to play cards like High Elf's Disdain on a non-HE board, and Mob Up among other cards to remain competitive and it's severely warping the game.

Anyone who played vs a BT deck at Worlds can attest to this statement,

Also, every single BT deck ran Order in Chaos, btw. That card is also a real big problem.

- SF

Clamatius said:

Ahhh....read my GenCon report and you'll see that you're partially right and partially wrong (just a tiny "wrong" thing) in what you've said here. Coming up later today. Yes, that's a tease but I can assure you that it'll be an informative and enjoyable read.

I'll be curious to see it. I was amused to see you were playing the Dwarves/Disdain plan as that was what I was going to test today.

Clamatius said:

Dare I say great minds think alike?? LOL Believe me, I agonized over what to play until the very bitter end (something I stupidly did before the FFG regionals, too...sigh...will I never learn??).

Wish you guys could have been there, it was exciting and challenging. Loads of great players, strong decks, good sportsmanship (for the most part, from what I saw).

Oh my God! Oh my God! Bolt Thrower! Does this expansion bring it down? Is Bolt Thrower Invincible??? Does <card name> give more power to Bolt Thrower????

Guys, seriously... You become obssessed with it. It is one stupid deck you should not care about. What for? Just don't play with people who obviously need some handicap and use the strongest deck available. In my opinion it's a shame to play with that deck if it's well-known it is OP. And don't expect devs to do everything to stop this. It's not fun to play against this deck and simply don't.

And what about tournaments you say? Laugh at people who can't design their own decks and need help of overpowered UBT deck.

Hmmm...interesting take, though you're surely going to take some flak for the sarcasm in your post. I agree with some of your points but it IS rather fun to play in tournaments and competitively to see how your personal deck-building strategies hold up against intense competition. In that regard, the BT deck is admittedly problematic.

I suggest we just all play bolt thrower. I mean, most of us have the cards, right? And the only way to beat bolt thrower is to BE bolt thrower.

I love this expansion and can't wait. I'm glad that locally no one feels the need to play this on a regular basis because we enjoy the fun part of the game more than the "I Win!" part.

So we have an agreement Wytefang, as both of us feel a player should play with his, and nobody's else, deck. With one he has individually created. One person has designed Bolt Thrower Deck and probability of facing him in the same room is minimal, close to 0. And if you participate in a tournament and your opponent plays with BT deck what does is tell about him? In my opinion that he lacks creativity and simply needs to steal others' ideas. Shame, really. That's what I would tell my opponent if he used BT deck against me.

I think you run into a problem, though, when you insist that players have to have come up with an all-new deck to play in a tournament - in most games, there are really only just so many decks to be made. Also, how does anyone know who created which deck type first?

No, I'm not saying exactly what you're saying at all - I think that as long as you put your own unique spin on a deck, I'm okay with that. You may be running a BT deck but with your own twist - that's fine by me.

let's say that is what i had in mind.

I don't know how You but I love those new Chaos cards, my favoured is The Lord Of Change (Greater Deamon of Tzeentch). Looking forward for to this expansion, so I hope it will hit stores soon.