We just had a situation where Andira Runehand was attacking with the Screaming Eagle Staff, which has Breath, and hit three monsters, one of which was adjacent to her. One side said that she got to use her Hero Ability to inflict Pierce 2. The other side said that Breath attacks ignore range and that she shouldn't be able to give consideration to a monster that was adjacent to her; just simply hit the monsters that were in the Breath template,

Thoughts?

Hmmm... 2 thoughts...

Breath isn't technically a ranged attack... sure it effects a "range" BUT - it doesn't need to "make range" for any of its attack to hit. (right?)

Secondly, is Pierce exclusively held to ranged weapons/attacks? Are there any weapons or skills that are not ranged - that have pierce?

I would think that IF there are attacks or weapons with pierce that are NOT ranged (this assumes breath is ruled as not a ranged attack) that pierce could be applied... maybe!

That is where I would start to try and figure that one out... Not gonna lie though - Breath with Pierce 2 would be kinda nice!

Hmm? The Screaming Eagle Staff is a weapon with a Magic attack that let's you use the Breath template. Using the Breath template let's you have a successful attack as long as you don't roll an X. Andira Runehand's Hero Ability states that, "When Andira Runehand makes a Magic attack on an adjacent enemy, she gains Pierce 2".

She is making a Magic attack, not a Ranged attack. However, the Breath template ignores rolled range. So, does she ignore the fact that an enemy is adjacent to her? And thus, doesn't get to activate her hero Ability?

Kain_Dragoon said:

I guess another way to ask it is; since she is not specifically attacking an enemy adjacent her; just simply make an area of effect attack that happens to hit an enemy adjacent to her, does she get to activate her Hero Ability?

Kain_Dragoon said:

Ummmm... I think it would hit the adjacent enemy with pierce 2 - but none of the others... as long as the enemy IS adjacent I don't see why the hero couldn't activate their hero ability.

Kain_Dragoon said:

Andira's special: When Andira Runehand makes a Magic attack on an adjacent enemy, she gains Pierce 2.

It's pretty simple really.
Is she making a magic attack? Yes .
Is she making that (magic) attack on an adjacent enemy? Yes (it does not matter that she is also making that attack on non-adjacent enemies).
Therefore Andira gains Pierce 2 .
Which means that the entire attack gains pierce 2, even against the non-adjacent monsters .

Ignoring range is not relevant to adjacency. Adjacency and range are independent of each other.

Kain_Dragoon said:

Hmmmm... doesn't the hero technically attack the adjacent hero still?

And isn't there some spot that talks about attacking the square? I'm not sure where it is... and I'm watching TV right now.

Corbon said:

How come all the others would get hit with pierce 2? Just curious how you read it. I am impartial really to either ruling/perspective. Just curious what informs the pierce 2 to all of them and not just the adjacent.

SoylentGreen said:

Attacks always target spaces, not figures.
DJitD pg9
The attacking player declares which space his figure is attacking ...
Pg22 (Breath)
Attacks with the Breath ability use the Breath template to determine which spaces they affect.

But the rules writers are pretty sloppy, so often misuse the language. In this case we would consider Andira's ability to say " ....a magic attack that affects an adjacent figure..." ( instead of ''attack on an adjacent...') . It can be long and complicate to check, or explain further, but that sort of wording is consistent with the underlying rules and will create consistant sorts of affects every time.

Corbon said:

Thanks! I didn't feel like looking.

SoylentGreen said:

1. Because the (same) attack is applied to all figures affected to it.

2. Because Andira gets the Pierce 2. The adjacent figure doesn't 'suffer Pierce 2', Andira adds Pierce 2. So Andira's attack now reads something like:
WYbbb Breath, Pierce2 (special), +2R and +1 Damage (Inner Fire), +2~ (Prodigy), Knockback (Water Pact and it's a Staff) - to pick 3 skills at not-quite-random.

Corbon said:

Yeah - I was just thinking about it that way. (#2)

Makes the most sense to me.

Corbon said:

AHHH!!! This started a poopstorm! Ok, now, a lot of the times you read in these forums that you should interpret rules "in the spirit in which they were written". The "spirit" in which Andira's Hero Ability was written is that the rune on her hand would affect the enemy adjacent to her when she "touched them". Some of the hero players are now arguing that it definitely DOES NOT affect the other enemies. Even if it did affect the enemy next to her. I'm still not sure. Yes, you have a "checklist of rationale" but we must remember that The Screaming Eagle Staff came way later after Andira was created and we all know that FFG misses some checks and balances.

Kain_Dragoon said:

Breath (and Blast) was (were) in the original set, so there is no argument that things weren't caught in expansion mixes.

The rules are very clear and very simple.

You don't know for sure what the spirit was, you are just assuming. She could, for example, be considered to get an extra magical boost by using an adjacent enemy's life force. There is no reason why that magical boost couldn't affect her entire 'spell' (attack) rather than just the target she took the life force from.

Basically, the guys arguing against simply don't have a leg to stand on. Not a rules leg, not even a thematic leg, unless they can reasonably claim to have a secret deep insight into the mind of the person who made Andira up (and even then, it's only a thematic leg, and if you attempt to make this gane work entirely thematically all the time then you have to basically change practically everything . And then change it again next time you play and someone else has a different thematic angle...)

But, as always, you are free to houserule it.
Don't be surprised though if Andira becomes an unfavoured hero though. She is already outclassed by at least 3, maybe 5 other mage heroes (6 if using ToI and playing Vanilla), even when using her special strictly as the rules say.

In keeping with the new trend, I agree with Corbon.

It seems a bit odd that the pierce would affect all of the monsters, but that's simply how the game mechanics were designed. It may not make any more sense than a dodging figure dodging a breath attack for everyone... but, well, that happens in the game, too.

mahkra said:

Yeah that was one of the more dodgy rules, but thats the rules so you just have to live with it lol.

Kain_Dragoon said:

There's a difference between "the spirit in which the rules are written" and "a logical, thematic/RP explanation of how the rules work." When people around here talk about "the spirit" of the rules, they are generally referring to the (hopefully obvious) intent of a rule. The intent of a rule is not always logical or thematic. There are a great many rules which are not logical (at least not if you insist on thinking of Descent like some kind of D&D-lite board game.)

Now, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of Andira's Peirce being applied to all the figures under the breath template, but I do concede that Corbon's deduction makes the most sense when considering the probable intent of the rules. Historically, effects which affect an attack will affect ALL figures caught in that attack. This has been supported in FAQ rulings and extended discussions with the designers to go as far as saying Ironskin and Unstoppable will extend their protection from one figure under a template attack to all figures under that template. Thus, the only two rulings I can foresee for this particular question are:

(a) Andira's Pierce affects all figures in the attack or

(b) Andira's Pierce affects no figures in the attack.

Of the two, Corbon seems to have the right of it in saying it's (a.) Pierce 2 gets added to the attack and thus affects everything under the template.

The only instance where two figures under the same template will suffer different consequences (that I can think of) is if one of them has Stealth and the Stealth Die comes up X. The Stealth die was added in an expansion, whereas Andira, Pierce, and Breath were all in the base game. The Screaming Eagle Staff may have come from an expansion, but you could set up the same theoretical situation using a Blast Rune and positioning the AoE in such a way that it hits at least one enemy standing adjacent to Andira along with whatever else. There were definitely Blast runes in the base game.

SoylentGreen said:

Breath is independent of attack type. You could, in theory, have a Melee weapon that has the Breath template. I don't think such a thing exists, but the rules don't prohibit it either. In this case, as has been discussed already, the Screaming Eagle Staff is making a Magic attack. Counting range or not counting range is irrelevant - it is still a Magic attack.

Pierce is certainly not limited to Range/Magic attacks. The Grinding Axe jumps to mind as a Melee weapon with plenty of Pierce. Beastmen used to have Pierce in the original release of the game, though that was quickly errata'd to +X Damage instead.

None of the special abilities in the game that add to attacks are limited to any particular attack type. There are certainly some combinations that wouldn't make much sense (ie: Sorcery on a Melee attack would essentially be +X damage since you'll never need the +X Range) but theoretically, it could be done.

Thanks Steve-O. You seem to be coming more from where I am. Like you, I'm not totally comfortable with Andira getting Pirece to all enemies but do see where the argument is coming from.

Also I like the way that you respond, respectfully and without the feeling of "I'm right and you're wrong". Thank you very much, it is appreciated.

Kain_Dragoon said:

Text based communication is always tricky. Sometimes things sound harsher in the forums than they were intended. I don't think any of the other posters in this thread were trying to insult you, for what it's worth.

Steve-O said:

I was trying to be disrespectful... I think he's an idiot! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

No! - but seriously - hope no one ever thinks I am rude in my replies. This in general is one of the better and more respectful forums I frequent and I appreciate the discussions that take place here very much. I often hope my replies to be more of an open dialogue - am willing to change when I see a more reasonable solution - and hope others behave the same way.

SoylentGreen said:

You're fine. I was just sayin' in general. It's cool Mr. Soy.

Wouldn't Andira simply inflict Pierce 2 on the adjacent enemy while all other monsters under the breath template receive normal damage as per the attack roll?I don't see what's the problem with this situation.

You could argue that the hero has some sort of armor-piercing aura when she attacks,regardless of the weapon she uses, and only adjacent figures are affected by it.

zealot12 said:

No, no you can not. If you do that, expect a visit from the Thematic Argument Police.

zealot12 said:

It could theoretically work that way, but I don't think there's really any reason to expect it to. There's been quite a precedent set with other rules:

• If one hero dodges an area effect attack, the re-roll applies to all figures.
• Surges are spent once for an entire attack. A hero can't spend the same surges to get 3 damage against one monster but 6 pierce against a different monster.
• FAQ: "Sorcery may not add damage to any attack that includes a figure with Ironskin." ... "The [sorcery] damage immunity granted by Ironskin does extend to all figures affected by an attack that includes a model with Ironskin."
• FAQ: "The Crushing Blow card may be played on any one hero affected by the attack" ... "the card reduces the damage dealt by the attack to zero, so all figures caught in the area of effect will take zero damage, not just the hero affected by Crushing Blow."
• FAQ: " Q: Blocked: Does the attack miss all of its targets, or only the hero who played the card (the card says the "attack against you becomes a miss")? A: Because you are changing a die to a miss result, all heroes targeted by the attack would evade the attack."

The one glaring exception is Stealth, but the rules are pretty explicit that Stealth works in a unique way.

EDIT:

The points above were just meant to support the idea that the Pierce 2 would affect all figures in the attack or no figures in the attack, but that last excerpt from the FAQ gives even more insight to the Andira & Breath question.

Compare:
Blocked: "Play after a monster has made a successful melee or ranged attack against you (a melee or ranged attack that doesn't miss)."
Andira: "When Andira Runehand makes a Magic attack on an adjacent enemy, she gains Pierce 2."

In the case of Blocke d, we know from the existence of the FAQ answer that it c an be used during an area effect attack. Even though the area effect attack does not specifically target the hero, it still qualifies as an "attack against you". That same reasoning means that an area effect attack that includes an adjacent enemy, while not specifically targeting that particular enemy, would still qualify as an "attack on an adjacent enemy".

zealot12 said:

It certainly could work that way, the only problem being that it isn't written to work that way.
In order to make it work that way you could have the wording saying something like:
"When a Magic attack by Andira affects an adjacent enemy, that enemy suffers -2 armour. An enemies armour cannot be reduced below 0 by this affect."

I really don't understand why people are 'uneasy' about Andira's attack affecting other, non-adjacent enemies she is attacking. It is simply a case of using some imagination.
She has a Runehand. The affect of the Runehand is that when she makes an attack and has an adjacent enemy she can draw some sort of 'energy' or 'power' from the target and add it to her attack. The effect of the energy is Pierce 2. SInce Andira has drawn the energy and it transfers into her attack, it affects all figure she effects with that attack. It is not a local 'out' affect, but a local ' in ', global 'out' affect.
The reason she can't do this when attacking other figures and not attacking an adjacent enemy is that the power being drawn sort of 'tunes' the attack so that it can only work at all if the originator of the power (the adjacent enemy) is being affected by the attack.

That is fairly long and wordy, to make the explanation clear, but the concept is simple enough.