RabidWookie said:

The rules are not poorly written, and they don't have any gaping holes. They do suffer from some poor organization, I can give you that, but as pumpkin points out this is likely due to the fact that a lot of the rules are on cards, which makes it a bit hard for the reader to sort everything out. This is (as your post was) just an opinion of course.

If you need a revised rulebook, then buy it. Be happy that FFG is releasing one. Thinking that you would have gotten the new version for free is just delusional.

Resale value? Who cares about resale values for their RPGs, I honestly find that notion quite weird. It's not a car, it's a game.

gruntl said:

I disagree that the cards have anything to do with it. It's the non-card related rules that are poorly organized, due to the entire basics of the task resolution system being spread out over several chapters, filled with paragraphs that don't contain any meaningful information.

But that's how FFG writes many of their rulebooks: lots of prose that fails to get to the point, and in order to understand what it all means, you need to look at a slightly contradictory example on a different page. Arkham Horror definitely suffers from this same problem. It makes simple stuff seem complex and confusing. Better editing (cutting all the filler and getting to the point) would help a lot.

It's true that a lot of RPGs, especially from small publishers, suffer from this same problem. But I don't think FFG counts as a small publisher anymore. WFRP deserves a good editor.

I noted Heptat stating FFG was going to offer a percentile system for those playing without components. Where did FFG announce that?

The preview materials for the hardcover books coming out states it has rules for playing the game using the hardback books and the current sets of dice available for the game. No where did they state that they were switching back to a percentile system.

I'm not sure how random charts and graphs will work without percentile, but they haven't stated anywhere that the dicing mechanic or dice pools were going anywhere.

LeBlanc13 said:

I think that percentile is for the different decks that provide results (wounds, disease, insanity, etc).

From my understanding the core mechanic still would rely on the new dice.

There was something I read where you'd have a percentile for determining random starting careers, that was it.

I certainly don't understand those who previously liked the system being upset that there are options now for anyone coming in - as the community requested. From everything FFG has posted and DVang's information - it is just that - different combo's of the material to appeal to folks looking for the one that suits them best. If you already have the material they have stated there is nothing new - other than in the Bestiary that is forthcoming. If that situation doesn't agree with anyone, I'm sorry to hear it and hope you are able to find resolution.

As to the 'percentile' that is only in regard to the career choosing method that is in the hard back book - as it doesn't come with career cards to 'pull three' from. The mechanics of the system, as far as I've read so far, are not changing.

RabidWookie said:

Because if it is reprinted down the line (when? Are you willing to wait a year?) you will still have to pay for it. It will not be free. That cost will add on to that of the Guides and Vaults. Odds are you'll have paid about the same amount (or more than) you would had you just bought the Core + supplements, but you'll have less material (fewer cards and dice) and will have had to wait months for material the rest of us have been happily playing with.

The Vaults are not a cost effective way of collecting the game. They are meant to add extra material to the core - enough cards for one extra player, some extra tokens and dice etc. But if you intend to get all the material for the game, the best value for money is the core + box supplements.

Actually, I didn't even think about that. The Player's Vault will come with only enough cards for 1 player, whereas in the core box you get three sets of basic action cards plus one set of careers.

The player's vault and guide will be a good option for people that want to play only. Although, they'll still need to buy their own dice and an adventurer's vault it seems.

I guess the core box is still the best deal around overall, but at least it gives people options.

I intend to buy the 3 hardcover books, plus the Creature Vault. Can't have too many creature standees. Actually, that's one thing I thought the core box didn't give us enough of. We got close to 40 PC representations in the core box, but only 10-20 monster standees. That didn't make too much sense to me. I don't feel every career needs it's own counter. A good representation of male and female characters of various looks would have been fine with multiples of the monsters in the Tome of Adventure would have made more sense to me.

From what I've read and what my group would want- the core set is the best way to go. We may wait for a good Borders coupon, but the cards and tokens coming with the base set works for us. A lot less annoying bookeeping and a lot more playing.

Also, Rabidwookie, if you're selling your stuff at 10 cents on the dollar, I'll buy.

gruntl said:

You know, there are other companies releasing quality RPGs; I don't have to happily repurchase rulebooks for WFRP3. I never asked for a free copy of anything, I pointed out that the proofs of purchase included with recent supplements would be well used by FFG in offering discounts to existing customers that have been forced to struggle through horribly written and organized rules and rapidly outdated products. As for resale value, it's really important when the inevitable Next Edition is about to hit. Perhaps you have far more disposable income than I do and don't have to worry about what things cost, congratulations. $300+ (so far) on WFRP3 is a big outlay of cash for me.

macd21 said:

How is the core + box supplements the best value? It costs far more than the Player and GM Guide/Vault combos (everyone needs to buy the Creature Guide/Vault as it contains new content), offers vastly inferior copies of the rules, and out of date cards that have been since errata'd. By going with the core box + supplements, you're hugely overpaying to get some fluff and a couple adventures early (as there is no logical reason why FFG wouldn't reprint that material). You'd honestly recommend that a new group buy the core+supplements+creature guide/vault for almost $400 instead of the Guides and Vaults with properly written rules, and book references for cards, for around $250? Or just the Player and GM books for under $100?

Sure if you want to play the "lite" version, though you still need to poney up for dice and will only have one players book for the group. or need tobuy extra vaults.

If you are buying for a group it sounds like much of a muchness, even with the price of extra expansions. Time will tell what works and what doesn't. But what ever choice is good.

Oh by the way Rabid, FFG always is $$ if money is a problem I'd advise run away now, sorry dude.

RabidWookie said:

RabidWookie said:

Except for the fact that:

1/ Jay has clearly stated in the FAQ that they are committed to producing all the coming boxed sets in the original format (to quote "the rules, source materials, and components in one box")

2/ They have every logical reason not to reprint that material in order to avoid the exact problem you are complaining about i.e. they don't want lower cost book-only versions undercutting the value of the core set and boxed adventures

At the end of the day, which is more plausible:

(a) having publicly (re)committed themselves to maintaining the original version of the game, FFG then release a group of products that completely undermine the original version and render the core product of that line totally 'obsolete', whilst undercutting the sales of future releases because players are waiting for a better value book version

(b) You've misunderstood what is actually in the Guides and Player/GM Vaults, and value-wise they don't really stack up against the Core Set (but do offer options to groups with additional players or those looking for component-free play)

I strongly suggest that those who have indicated that they will sell off all their WFRP items in a fit of pique actually wait to see what the confirmed contents of the Guides etc are... While the original announcement about the new Guides was deeply ambiguous, every thing we've seen since then, from the FAQ the next day to Dvang's very kind footage from Gencon, appears to show a clear commitment to the WFRP we all know and love.

I'm not selling anything off until I get confirmation on what's in the Vaults, but I don't believe for a second that FFG is releasing the "lite" version of the game only to never support it with future releases. If FFG cared about the lite version eating into sales of their traditional WFRP3 products they wouldn't be releasing the lite products in the first place. If the majority of players gravitate towards the lite version, the lite version will be the one getting the support. Unfortunately it appears that a vocal minority has spooked FFG, which is a shame because that minority will never buy the lite version of WFRP3 anyway.

LeBlanc13 said:

My apologies for writing such a poor sentence and causing any confusion. I obviously just got the percentile info from dvang's posts.

Anyway, the sooner FFG release the video of Jay's seminar the better!

RabidWookie said:

Yes, because you get more for your money. Buying the Core + box supplements may cost more overall, but I think that you get more for your $ than you do with the guides and vaults. It's more than just 'fluff and adventures', it's rules for stuff like Nurgle and Tzeentch, extra dice and cards for more players. The rules are not 'vastly inferior', while badly organised and sometimes ambiguous the rules are serviceable - plenty of people have made do with them so far. I would never suggest to someone to spend extra money on the guides and vaults just for a slightly clearer version of the rules.

RabidWookie said:

There is a world of difference between supporting a lite version by adding further hardbacks (covering the new rules and actions in key releases like the Chaos themed boxes) six months or a year after their initial release, and selling it in a way that totally undercuts the original version of the game and renders the core box useless. The division of the Creatures Guide and Vault into seemingly lite and original versions rang alarms bells for many, which is undoubtedly why Jay made it clear in the FAQ that future releases wouldn't have an accompanying cheaper and more cost effective alternative.

If they were releasing every new box set in a component-free and original version, then the scenario you envisage might be feasible. But do you really think the vast majority of 3rd edition players are going to sit on their hands for months and months while new content flows past them, just so that they can bypass huge amounts of content, adventures, new rules, careers, action cards etc and all the other goodies typically packed in the full sets, and buy a hardback book with percentile charts and tidier rules? Seriously?

Monkus said:

You're forgetting that the lite rules are intended to bring in an entire new group of players that refuse to use the bits, and those players would happily wait for more hardcovers. Also, we have no way of knowing if FFG will double-dip again in the future and consolidate supplements into vaults to accompany new hardcover books. Hell, they've consolidated Signs of Faith into a Vault/Guide and Signs of Faith isn't even out yet. If the Guides and Vaults sell well there will be more Guides and Vaults, and it'd be foolish not to wait for them. Yes, there will be hardcore fans of WFRP3 that will knowingly overpay to get the material earlier, but that's a small minority of any fanbase.

RabidWookie said:

I'm buying them... And I was a big part of that "Vocal Minority" of which you spoke.

Frankly, I just want the ability to have a book, a set of dice and some friends and game together. The other components in the game I could take or leave. Also, I thought it was daft not to have the card materials listed in the core books so I didn't have to cart around a ton of cards. I'm not playing Magic: The Gathering here, I want to play an RPG.

Anyway, you're wrong that no one who complained will buy the new product. I will. In fact, I went to the game store in my area and traded back for all of my WFRP3 stuff to boot.

Jay and FFG's good will brought me back. I'm sure others that left or were thinking of leaving may change their minds too.

LeBlanc13 said:

I agree with you that not listing all the card info in the books for reference was silly, but I still don't understand why some people are so opposed to the components. Just about every other RPG works with only books and dice, and that often results in everyone struggling to remember what all of their feats and powers do, or worse yet, constantly referencing the books in the middle of play. WFRP3 was a revolutionary step forward for RPGs after 30+ years of stagnation, and it's a shame to see FFG start caving on Jay's original vision. I've been a huge fan of Jay's work ever since MLB Sportsclix, and I'm getting tired of the mainstream not fully embracing his ideas because they aren't exactly like everything that has come before. I want products that excite me the way my first discovery of RPGs did as a kid, and WFRP3 did that (as did Sportsclix).

RabidWookie said:

WFRP3 is not revolutionary at all. In fact, they took most of their ideas from other companies and games already produced by FFG (D&D and Descent: Journeys in the Dark to name two.) What WFRP3 did do is package these ideas as CORE concepts in gameplay and put them in the box to start with.

D&D has been using map tiles, minis, counters, cards and other 3rd party RPG tools since the inception of the game. With 3rd edition in 2000, they took it to an even more pervasive part of the game.

The fact that WFRP3 put the components in a core box doesn't make them new or innovative. It just made using the tools convenient and integral to play, whereas with D&D using anything outside of the books and dice was optional.

So taking away the option of using components and making them mandatory is revolutionary?

RabidWookie said:

Well, no, I'm not forgetting that the component-free version is trying to bring in a new crowd. I just don't see how it is a bad thing for FFG to pull in more players for 3e so long as they don't undercut the original version of the game.

Your statement about Signs of Faith is just misleading. It sounds like some of the rules from Signs of Faith are included in the new guide. Based on Winds of Magic, what proportion of the content of the boxed set do the spell cards and new rules actually represent, when you cut out the adventure, the fluff, the new standees, etc etc? The 'lite' version is 'lite' not just in terms of being component-free, but it will lack a lot of the additional content the core set and other boxes have added to the game.

You seem to assume that everyone who owns a copy of 3e, everyone in the community who has been chomping at the bit for more content and buying supplements thus far, will now unilaterally decide that they don't want to buy the new adventures, the new boxed sets, and will suddenly lose their appetite for any of the components that they have been happily playing their games with thus far, because they might be able to get a hardcover book which will not contain most of the content in the boxed sets and will appear at some indeterminate time in the future?

You say in your reply to LeBlanc that you were really excited about the component version of 3e and have had a great time playing it; well, from the boards it is perfectly clear that lots of people who own 3e, this GM included, feel exactly the same way! And why on earth would we stop feeling that way, simply because FFG have released some books to draw in additional players?

Monkus said:

My original point was that FFG is misleading customers by touting the Core Set as the best way to get into the game, because the Core Set path winds up costing almost twice as much as the Guide/Vault path while containing vastly inferior rules layout, no book references for the cards, etc.. As for the lite version of the game, my point is that there is a danger that the original vision for the game will be abandoned (or neglected) if enough people prefer the lite version. If enough people complain about the innovative new dice mechanics of WFRP3, will FFG release a version of the game that uses traditional polyhedral dice?

LeBlanc13 said:

Yes, WFRP3 was partly inspired by Doom and Descent (board games); D&D was based entirely on Chainmail, does that mean the original release of D&D wasn't revolutionary? As for the "D&D did it first" argument, it doesn't really hold water, because D&D uses optional components as references for stuff on the character sheet while WFRP3 actually involves the components in the mechanics. The socketing of cards on the Career Sheet, the Party Sheet, the stance meters, the new dice system that uses a gamist mechanic to directly facilitate storytelling while also providing detailed results beyond pass/fail; you may not like these ideas, but that doesn't make them any less revolutionary.