How is the Core still the best value?

By RabidWookie, in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay

Posted at

jeffeoff said:

Doc, the Weasel said:

Nothing is becoming obsolete. All the old material is just as usable as before. If they were making NEW stuff that you had to use instead of the old (e.g. DnD 3.5) then the old stuff would be obsolete.

What you're left with is anger over the cost going down over time. That's a strange thing to be mad at. That's kinda like being mad a video game company for releasing a $20 "game of the year" version of a game that you paid $60 for the year before. It's kinda how markets work.

That's a good, and valid, analogy. But I can still understand how it might feel like the early supporters, who stood by the game and kept it going, might feel a little burned. It's not a model we typically see in the tabletop games market, and when the contents are so tangible (as opposed to software), perhaps the feeling is more pointed.

I think your point that it's not a model we see in the tabletop gaming market is a great one. When someone buys a videogame for $60, they buy it knowing that it's going to inevitably drop in price in a few months, because that happens with every videogame. Nobody buys products for a brand new RPG expecting them to be replaced by superior new products for half the price only a few months later.

The videogame comparison would be accurate it the videogame came out for $60, then the Game Of The Year edition came out the following week for $30. It all comes down to violation of established expectations that consumers have to rely on when making purchases. When a company violates those expectations without warning, consumers are justified in not trusting them with their money in the future. I'm holding out hope that FFG hasn't done that; we won't know until we see the contents of the Player's and GM's Vaults. Anyone have details on those from GenCon?

Posted at

jeffeoff said:

That's a good, and valid, analogy. But I can still understand how it might feel like the early supporters, who stood by the game and kept it going, might feel a little burned. It's not a model we typically see in the tabletop games market, and when the contents are so tangible (as opposed to software), perhaps the feeling is more pointed.

Last Christmas when WoTC packaged the PHB 1 and 2 together for $20, the general response was "that's a great deal" rather than "they just slapped me in the face for buying early."Publish

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Keep in mind that the released supplements all include excellent adventures. You won't get those with the Various Guides/Vaults.

Posted at

RabidWookie said:

...only a few months later.

I may be missing something but WFRP v3 has been out close to a year now, and the Guides and Vaults aren't yet released either.

I generaly expect that for every market (housing being the exception) that if you wait you can get a better deal on something. Even new computer games you get the better copy due to patching only a short time after what you purchased.

Even in role-playing games typically you have always had that if you are willing to wait you will eventually get the option of a packaged deal that is much more value for money. The wait is a risk though in that the game could stop being supported in the mean time.

Posted at

Also note that with one purchase/product you get enough materials to run the game, rather than buying half a dozen products.

I also believe that there is only a single copy of each of the Basic Action cards in the Players Vault, whereas there are 3 in the Core Set. Unless you want all your players sharing the Basic action cards, you'd need to buy 3 copies of the Player's Vault.

I'm sure there are some other advantages, but you get my gist. The Core Set is still a good deal. It's really easier to get the Core Set and expand on it with the various Guides/Vaults.

Posted at

Doc, the Weasel said:

jeffeoff said:

That's a good, and valid, analogy. But I can still understand how it might feel like the early supporters, who stood by the game and kept it going, might feel a little burned. It's not a model we typically see in the tabletop games market, and when the contents are so tangible (as opposed to software), perhaps the feeling is more pointed.

Last Christmas when WoTC packaged the PHB 1 and 2 together for $20, the general response was "that's a great deal" rather than "they just slapped me in the face for buying early."Publish

That's entirely different; that sale didn't make the PHB 1 and 2 obsolete. Again, the question is this: do the Vaults contain everything from the supplements? If so, there's no reason for anyone to buy The Adventurer's Toolkit, The Winds of Magic, or Signs of Faith (unless you like spending $50 for an adventure). If you still need to buy those supplements to get the bits for the new spells, blessings, etc. then I'm cool with it.

Posted at

Loswaith said:

RabidWookie said:

...only a few months later.

I may be missing something but WFRP v3 has been out close to a year now, and the Guides and Vaults aren't yet released either.

I generaly expect that for every market (housing being the exception) that if you wait you can get a better deal on something. Even new computer games you get the better copy due to patching only a short time after what you purchased.

Even in role-playing games typically you have always had that if you are willing to wait you will eventually get the option of a packaged deal that is much more value for money. The wait is a risk though in that the game could stop being supported in the mean time.

I preordered Winds of Magic and received it less than a month ago, and now the Player's Vault might obsolete it. You don't think it's reasonable to expect that a new RPG product won't be obsoleted that quickly?

Posted at

<sigh> Geez. The supplements are NOT obsoleted by the Guides nor Vaults. As I pointed out, most notably the supplements have ADVENTURES in them, which are not contained in any other product. Along with this are any background/area information that might be included in the supplement. If those alone aren't enough for you, I'm not sure that the Player's Vault includes career cards, which if true is another thing the supplements has.

So, please stop the doom and gloom about products beings made worthless or obsolete. FFG is very aware of what the products do, and are intentionally producing the products in a way that no products will be made "obsolete". They listened to fans that wanted information in hardcover form, and more specific sets to augment what they've already bought, and have done their best to do so without obsoleting the previous stuff, and still introduce a few new things that would make it appealing to those who have already bought the previous stuff.

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RabidWookie said:

I preordered Winds of Magic and received it less than a month ago, and now the Player's Vault might obsolete it. You don't think it's reasonable to expect that a new RPG product won't be obsoleted that quickly?

I think your second sentence is answered by your first sentence.

Posted at

dvang said:

<sigh> Geez. The supplements are NOT obsoleted by the Guides nor Vaults. As I pointed out, most notably the supplements have ADVENTURES in them, which are not contained in any other product. Along with this are any background/area information that might be included in the supplement. If those alone aren't enough for you, I'm not sure that the Player's Vault includes career cards, which if true is another thing the supplements has.

So, please stop the doom and gloom about products beings made worthless or obsolete. FFG is very aware of what the products do, and are intentionally producing the products in a way that no products will be made "obsolete". They listened to fans that wanted information in hardcover form, and more specific sets to augment what they've already bought, and have done their best to do so without obsoleting the previous stuff, and still introduce a few new things that would make it appealing to those who have already bought the previous stuff.

I've said several times already that my complaints will be valid IF the Vaults contain all of the bits from the supplements. If not, I've got no issue. I keep seeing the adventures argument, but one adventure and some fluff (which would undoubtedly be reprinted in a future book) are not worth $50 to most gamers.

Posted at

RabidWookie said:

dvang said:

<sigh> Geez. The supplements are NOT obsoleted by the Guides nor Vaults. As I pointed out, most notably the supplements have ADVENTURES in them, which are not contained in any other product. Along with this are any background/area information that might be included in the supplement. If those alone aren't enough for you, I'm not sure that the Player's Vault includes career cards, which if true is another thing the supplements has.

So, please stop the doom and gloom about products beings made worthless or obsolete. FFG is very aware of what the products do, and are intentionally producing the products in a way that no products will be made "obsolete". They listened to fans that wanted information in hardcover form, and more specific sets to augment what they've already bought, and have done their best to do so without obsoleting the previous stuff, and still introduce a few new things that would make it appealing to those who have already bought the previous stuff.

I've said several times already that my complaints will be valid IF the Vaults contain all of the bits from the supplements. If not, I've got no issue. I keep seeing the adventures argument, but one adventure and some fluff (which would undoubtedly be reprinted in a future book) are not worth $50 to most gamers.

Posted at

RabidWookie said:

dvang said:

<sigh> Geez. The supplements are NOT obsoleted by the Guides nor Vaults. As I pointed out, most notably the supplements have ADVENTURES in them, which are not contained in any other product. Along with this are any background/area information that might be included in the supplement. If those alone aren't enough for you, I'm not sure that the Player's Vault includes career cards, which if true is another thing the supplements has.

So, please stop the doom and gloom about products beings made worthless or obsolete. FFG is very aware of what the products do, and are intentionally producing the products in a way that no products will be made "obsolete". They listened to fans that wanted information in hardcover form, and more specific sets to augment what they've already bought, and have done their best to do so without obsoleting the previous stuff, and still introduce a few new things that would make it appealing to those who have already bought the previous stuff.

I've said several times already that my complaints will be valid IF the Vaults contain all of the bits from the supplements. If not, I've got no issue. I keep seeing the adventures argument, but one adventure and some fluff (which would undoubtedly be reprinted in a future book) are not worth $50 to most gamers.

There is not one product that contains all the information from any of the supplements. It looks like each supplement's material is scattered throughout the guides and vaults, so you would have to pick them all up to get all that material (sans Creature Vault, which looks like it's new cards).

Even then, you wouldn't have:

1. Career cards (careers would be listed in the Player's Guide, but no cards)

2. Much of the background info

3. The adventures, except for Eye for an Eye which looks to be in the GM Vault

Posted at

RabidWookie said:

dvang said:

<sigh> Geez. The supplements are NOT obsoleted by the Guides nor Vaults. As I pointed out, most notably the supplements have ADVENTURES in them, which are not contained in any other product. Along with this are any background/area information that might be included in the supplement. If those alone aren't enough for you, I'm not sure that the Player's Vault includes career cards, which if true is another thing the supplements has.

So, please stop the doom and gloom about products beings made worthless or obsolete. FFG is very aware of what the products do, and are intentionally producing the products in a way that no products will be made "obsolete". They listened to fans that wanted information in hardcover form, and more specific sets to augment what they've already bought, and have done their best to do so without obsoleting the previous stuff, and still introduce a few new things that would make it appealing to those who have already bought the previous stuff.

I've said several times already that my complaints will be valid IF the Vaults contain all of the bits from the supplements. If not, I've got no issue. I keep seeing the adventures argument, but one adventure and some fluff (which would undoubtedly be reprinted in a future book) are not worth $50 to most gamers.

Except you're not just getting the adventure when you buy the supplement for $50. You are getting the creatures and careers and everything. Honestly, other than the Creature Guide and Creature Vault, you could ignore getting the GM+Player Guides/Vaults as long as you bought all the supplements (other than the additional Action cards that come with the Core Set that are in the PV). Your Winds of Magic will not be obsolete.

Posted at

Nor at this point is there any reason to think that people new to the game are getting a better deal than the players who have already bought in.

Based on the information we have so far, it seems clear to me that this is about options. People will now have the option to get the game in format A or format B as is best for them. I have to wonder if the people who are pissed or freaked out about this are the same people who bought the core set even though they didn't like the components or some other element. That's the argument that makes the most sense to me... "You mean I bought all these counters and now know I didn't have to?"

But the idea that repackaging material in anyway makes the original packaging "obsolete" astounds me, and that's really what we're talking about here... packaging. If you already bought all the materials, you have all the materials. I don't see how "obsolete" factors. They've already stressed that nothing has changed. Any rules changes in the books have been or will be addressed in the FAQ. The exception is the Creature Vault and book which they're being up front about.

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After reviewing the announced supplements on the horizon let's break down the costs.

Currently, players may have invested the following:

Core Box $99.99

Adventurer's Toolkit $29.99

GM's Toolkit $39.99

Priest Supplement $49.95

Wizard Supplement $49.95

Okay, this is your initial investment into the core game at $270.00. (I'm not including the Adventure Stromdorf at this point)

Player's Guide $49.95

Players Vault $39.95

GM's Guide $39.95

GM's Vault $29.95

Creature Guide $29.95

Creature Vault $39.95

Adventurer's Toolkit $29.99

GM's Toolkit $39.95

If my math is right on this, you're looking at an investment of $300.00 (approx) for an initial layout of the hardcover books plus the other supplements required to have everything else. My assumption for including the Adventurer's toolkit and the GM's toolkit is that the preview document specifically states that only the cards and tools from the core box will be included in the upcoming vaults. This means both of these products must still be purchased with the new hardcover books and vaults if you want all of the materials. Also while it mentions that information from the Priest and Wizard books will be in there, it doesn't mention spell cards or other materials will be. If you want these, you'll still need to purchase the boxed set of each at $50.00 more per box. That brings the total for the hardcover layout at $400.00, whereas the Core boxed set player is at $300.00 for the same materials.

What the hardcover books seem to be doing is allowing all of the rules to be included in one set of handy reference tomes without needing to peruse 6-7 other smaller softcover books.

Another issue that makes the core box the better value is that no dice are mentioned as coming in any of the vaults. In order to get the same number (or more) of dice you would need approximately 4 packs of dice at $11.95 per pack. This equates to roughly $48.00 for the dice alone which isn't included in the costs above.

In my opinion, the core box is by far the better option for those looking to use ALL the tools and components. By separating them out into GM and player specific options, FFG makes it cheaper for a player or GM to get into the game without paying for the full cost layout themselves. My thoughts are if you already have purchased everything you don't need the hardcover books or the vaults. You can pick them up if you choose to so you have a sturdier reference book that travels a bit easier, but you don't NEED it.

Frankly, I like the fact FFG is providing more options without making the prior products obsolete. This is not a jump to WFRP 3.5, but rather a company listening to it's fanbase that stated it'd be nice if I could get into the game just having to pay for the products I want without having the products I don't.

Posted at

Jaysin1414 said:

RabidWookie said:

dvang said:

<sigh> Geez. The supplements are NOT obsoleted by the Guides nor Vaults. As I pointed out, most notably the supplements have ADVENTURES in them, which are not contained in any other product. Along with this are any background/area information that might be included in the supplement. If those alone aren't enough for you, I'm not sure that the Player's Vault includes career cards, which if true is another thing the supplements has.

So, please stop the doom and gloom about products beings made worthless or obsolete. FFG is very aware of what the products do, and are intentionally producing the products in a way that no products will be made "obsolete". They listened to fans that wanted information in hardcover form, and more specific sets to augment what they've already bought, and have done their best to do so without obsoleting the previous stuff, and still introduce a few new things that would make it appealing to those who have already bought the previous stuff.

I've said several times already that my complaints will be valid IF the Vaults contain all of the bits from the supplements. If not, I've got no issue. I keep seeing the adventures argument, but one adventure and some fluff (which would undoubtedly be reprinted in a future book) are not worth $50 to most gamers.

At this point, it's clear that your heels are dug in and nothing short of a list of contents is gonna talk you off of the cliff. When you do decide to ebay all your stuff, give the forum a head's up first and see if any of us might want it, m'kay?

You're right, at this point I'm looking for confirmation on what's in the Vaults. If I ebay all my stuff I'll definitely give you guys a crack at it first.

Posted at

LeBlanc13 said:

After reviewing the announced supplements on the horizon let's break down the costs.

Currently, players may have invested the following:

Core Box $99.99

Adventurer's Toolkit $29.99

GM's Toolkit $39.99

Priest Supplement $49.95

Wizard Supplement $49.95

Okay, this is your initial investment into the core game at $270.00. (I'm not including the Adventure Stromdorf at this point)

Player's Guide $49.95

Players Vault $39.95

GM's Guide $39.95

GM's Vault $29.95

Creature Guide $29.95

Creature Vault $39.95

Adventurer's Toolkit $29.99

GM's Toolkit $39.95

If my math is right on this, you're looking at an investment of $300.00 (approx) for an initial layout of the hardcover books plus the other supplements required to have everything else. My assumption for including the Adventurer's toolkit and the GM's toolkit is that the preview document specifically states that only the cards and tools from the core box will be included in the upcoming vaults. This means both of these products must still be purchased with the new hardcover books and vaults if you want all of the materials. Also while it mentions that information from the Priest and Wizard books will be in there, it doesn't mention spell cards or other materials will be. If you want these, you'll still need to purchase the boxed set of each at $50.00 more per box. That brings the total for the hardcover layout at $400.00, whereas the Core boxed set player is at $300.00 for the same materials.

What the hardcover books seem to be doing is allowing all of the rules to be included in one set of handy reference tomes without needing to peruse 6-7 other smaller softcover books.

Another issue that makes the core box the better value is that no dice are mentioned as coming in any of the vaults. In order to get the same number (or more) of dice you would need approximately 4 packs of dice at $11.95 per pack. This equates to roughly $48.00 for the dice alone which isn't included in the costs above.

In my opinion, the core box is by far the better option for those looking to use ALL the tools and components. By separating them out into GM and player specific options, FFG makes it cheaper for a player or GM to get into the game without paying for the full cost layout themselves. My thoughts are if you already have purchased everything you don't need the hardcover books or the vaults. You can pick them up if you choose to so you have a sturdier reference book that travels a bit easier, but you don't NEED it.

Frankly, I like the fact FFG is providing more options without making the prior products obsolete. This is not a jump to WFRP 3.5, but rather a company listening to it's fanbase that stated it'd be nice if I could get into the game just having to pay for the products I want without having the products I don't.

If the Vaults are missing spell cards and other materials from the supplements, then your analysis is correct (except old players will also want the Creature's Guide/Vault, as it contains new material).

Posted at

RabidWookie said:

I preordered Winds of Magic and received it less than a month ago, and now the Player's Vault might obsolete it. You don't think it's reasonable to expect that a new RPG product won't be obsoleted that quickly?

You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

If FFG released new magic rules that replaced the rules in Winds of Magic, and said that the rules in WoM were a mistake and won't be supported by future products, then Winds of Magic would have been made obsolete. As it is, it looks like they're going to reprint exactly the same rules, just in a different format. So your Winds of Magic is not obsolete, and will remain perfectly usable.

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mcv said:

RabidWookie said:

I preordered Winds of Magic and received it less than a month ago, and now the Player's Vault might obsolete it. You don't think it's reasonable to expect that a new RPG product won't be obsoleted that quickly?

You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

If FFG released new magic rules that replaced the rules in Winds of Magic, and said that the rules in WoM were a mistake and won't be supported by future products, then Winds of Magic would have been made obsolete. As it is, it looks like they're going to reprint exactly the same rules, just in a different format. So your Winds of Magic is not obsolete, and will remain perfectly usable.

It would be obsolete in the sense that there would be no reason for a new customer to ever buy it (unless they like paying $50 for an adventure and some fluff that will probably be reprinted in the future anyway).

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RabidWookie said:

It would be obsolete in the sense that there would be no reason for a new customer to ever buy it (unless they like paying $50 for an adventure and some fluff that will probably be reprinted in the future anyway).

Certainly, it will probably be reprinted in the future... at which point you'll have to pay for it. Why wait until then to pay for it when you can do so now?

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macd21 said:

RabidWookie said:

It would be obsolete in the sense that there would be no reason for a new customer to ever buy it (unless they like paying $50 for an adventure and some fluff that will probably be reprinted in the future anyway).

Certainly, it will probably be reprinted in the future... at which point you'll have to pay for it. Why wait until then to pay for it when you can do so now?

Why would I pay $50 for an adventure and fluff, let alone an adventure and fluff that will be reprinted in a future product that will offer me far more content and value?

I've noticed that the more recent supplements have included Proof of Purchase tokens; the least FFG could do is let existing players mail in their POPs for a discount on the re-releases. After all, we essentially paid to playtest and edit the game. I've always held FFG to a high standard because their products have always been top-notch productions that I could purchase with peace of mind (which is why my game shelf is littered with FFG logos). It saddens me that this appears to no longer be the case.

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RabidWookie said:

After all, we essentially paid to playtest and edit the game.

You're trying to make out that FFG released a "beta" version of the game and then updated it after getting player feedback. Clearly this didn't happen and there is nothing "beta" about the core release.

And while they *are* offering a percentile version of the mechanics, they are certainly not changing the core, original mechanics which seem to work perfectly well.

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heptat said:

RabidWookie said:

After all, we essentially paid to playtest and edit the game.

You're trying to make out that FFG released a "beta" version of the game and then updated it after getting player feedback. Clearly this didn't happen and there is nothing "beta" about the core release.

And while they *are* offering a percentile version of the mechanics, they are certainly not changing the core, original mechanics which seem to work perfectly well.

Calling the rulebooks in the Core Set "beta" is being generous. I can't think of another mainstream RPG that released with such poorly written and organized rules, and the Core Set has gaping holes that required supplements to fill in (which are now being repackaged into the revised core releases). I'm starting to feel foolish for all the time I spent defending the WFRP3 model to WFRP2 die-hards, and for the hundreds of dollars I've spent on WFRP3 products that now have a resale value of 10 cents on the dollar.

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RabidWookie said:

It would be obsolete in the sense that there would be no reason for a new customer to ever buy it (unless they like paying $50 for an adventure and some fluff that will probably be reprinted in the future anyway).

That's not what obsolete means, though. The core set might not be competitive anymore as a new purchase (though plenty of people seem to disagree), but what's in it is still every bit as valid. It's only obsolete when it's been superceded. When the new version has too many different rules for an errata sheet to make up for the difference.

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RabidWookie said:

Calling the rulebooks in the Core Set "beta" is being generous. I can't think of another mainstream RPG that released with such poorly written and organized rules, and the Core Set has gaping holes that required supplements to fill in (which are now being repackaged into the revised core releases). I'm starting to feel foolish for all the time I spent defending the WFRP3 model to WFRP2 die-hards, and for the hundreds of dollars I've spent on WFRP3 products that now have a resale value of 10 cents on the dollar.

I disagree with your definition of beta, although I do understand your criticism of 1. the game not being complete with the core rules, and 2. the poor organisation of the rules (and 3. spending a lot of money on what is not a cheap venture). I guess from my perspective I've got a game that I'm enjoying and will continue to enjoy, but I accept that you're not happy with how you see the current situation. Hopefully, for your sake, once they actually release these new books (or at least officially tell us what's in them) it won't turn out as bad as you consider it now.