I find it a bit troubling that FFG is still touting the core set as the most cost-effective way to get the full WFRP3 experience. If you opt to go with the core set ($100), you must then buy the GM's Toolkit ($30), the Adventurer's Toolkit ($30), Winds of Magic ($50), and Signs of Faith ($50) for a total of $260 to get all of the same content you'd get from the Player's Guide/Vault ($90) and the GM's Guide/Vault ($70) for a total of $160. Plus, by going with the Guides and Vaults, you're getting rulebooks that are competently organized and contain all of the card info for reference. How exactly is it the best value to buy the core, when the new products are both cheaper and of superior quality? I was about to preorder Signs of Faith, but now I'm leaning towards ebaying my WFRP3 collection and staying away from FFG products in the future. I'd hate to stop buying FFG products, as I do love them, but if my comparison is correct then I can't help but feel screwed over. I hope I'm missing something.

RabidWookie said:

Yes, I think you do. Since there are no monsters in the GM’s guide you will also need the Creature Guide and Vault and you will need several dice packs. And even then you will miss the adventures that are included in WoM and SoF (and perhaps also An Eye for an Eye from the Core Set’s Tome of Adventures).

Until we know exactly what the guides and vaults include this is really difficult to judge. (For example: do they also include all the fluff on the chaos gods that are included in WoM and SoF?)

It looks like:

Core set+GMtoolkit+Winds of magic+Signs of faith-Tzeentch-Nurgle- dice

is the same as

GM guide+GM Vaults+Players guide+Players vaults+Creatures guide+Cratures vaults
or maybe I'm wrong?

Well, we don’t really know yet. We know that corruption and mutation rules will be part of the Guides & Vaults, so Tzeentch and Nurgle will be covered to a degree. I guess “-adventures” is a safer bet at this stage… but it still is a bet.

In addition, we do know that the Creature Guide & Vault will include stuff (perhaps even a lot of stuff) that is not part of the “Core set+GMtoolkit+Winds of magic+Signs of faith” combo.

The core is the basic boxed set. Not any additional adds. It is only $100.

I'd say the dice alone amount to about $100 compared to the blister packs of dice.

jh

ffgfan said:

I read that the Creatures Guide/Vault will be 95% new stuff, so that's essentially a new release for everyone.

Emirikol said:

I can't see FFG not offering a more affordable way for players to get the dice in the near future, now that they're offering a book-only version of the game.

My hope at this point is that the vaults don't contain any bits past the stuff from the core, which would make the existing supplements still valuable. Other than that, I don't see how our existing stuff hasn't been obsoleted.

It still the best value out there. You dont need to buy all the other stuff to play WFRP. When you compair what you have to buy in other games vs WFRP it still pretty good deal.

Militarywizard said:

It's not the best value out there if the new products contain all of the same material and bits as the core set and existing supplements combined, at a cheaper price with vastly superior organization. If the Player and GM's Guide/Vault sets only contain the material/bits from the core set then yes, the core would be the best value, but it doesn't look like that's the case. Can anyone confirm this?

So the problem here is that the new stuff will be cheaper to buy than the old stuff.

...

and why is this a problem?

Is it because the marketing copy is inaccurate? Is that really a problem?

RabidWookie said:

The new is unlikely to have everything the old stuff did. It's as simple as that. Adventures, dice, cards, possibly NPCs and Monsters, the sections on Nurgle and Tzeentch... even if some of that stuff is there, all of it won't be.

I don't think quite everything is going to be in the vaults and guides.

That total doesn't include the cost of dice. None of the vaults come with dice, as far as we know right now. To get the same amount of dice as the core box set that's like, what, another $24? I doubt FFG is going to release another way to get dice outside from the current dice pack they sell. Why would they?

We don't know how many players the Player's Vault will support yet. I wouldn't be surprised if they expect each player to shell out for his own Player's Vault or Adventurer's Toolkit.

How many pads of character sheets will you get? You'll have two if you have the Adventurer's Toolkit and the core set.

We don't know how many of the adventures (from ToA, WoM, and SoF), if any, will make it into the guides and vaults.

Will the GM screen be in the GM's Vault?

We really don't know yet. It's entirely possible the GM's Guide / Vault includes zero NPCs and creatures and they expect you to pick up the Creature's Guide / Vault for that stuff instead.

It's also likely that a lot of the fluff from WoM and SoF won't be included in the guides.

Doc, the Weasel said:

The problem here is that, if the new stuff contains all of the content from the old stuff, at a lower price and with better organization of the rules, the "old stuff" is obsoleted only months after it was released. That would be a huge middle finger to people that have supported the game, warts and all, since it's release nine months ago. Money is tight for everyone right now; when I spend $260 on a new RPG in good faith I don't expect that material to be rendered obsolete within a few months. If the components from the supplements aren't included in the Player's Vault or GM's Vault then the existing products won't be obsolete.

RabidWookie said:

Some of them will be, some of them won't.

RabidWookie said:

Nothing is becoming obsolete. All the old material is just as usable as before. If they were making NEW stuff that you had to use instead of the old (e.g. DnD 3.5) then the old stuff would be obsolete.

What you're left with is anger over the cost going down over time. That's a strange thing to be mad at. That's kinda like being mad a video game company for releasing a $20 "game of the year" version of a game that you paid $60 for the year before. It's kinda how markets work.

Doc, the Weasel said:

It's got nothing to do with the cost going down over time, and the comparison to video games doesn't work because the markets and established practices are so different. It's about an RPG line that costs $260 being replaced by a superior version of itself that is also $100 cheaper within it's first year of release. It's exactly like D&D 3.5, in that D&D 3.5 was essentially 3.0 with errata and vastly superior organization/layout. You really don't see how that's offensive, it it turns out to be the case with WFRP3? I'm still crossing my fingers that the vaults will only contain material from the core set, which would make supplements like Winds of Magic and Signs of Faith and the Adventurer's Toolkit still valid.

If I understand you correctly, you're hoping that the books don't contain the material from Winds of Magic and Signs of Faith so that you can feel better about your purchase of said materials.

Hmm. Are you planning on purchasing the books if they do or don't contain that material?

I just need to wrap my head around all this, as I plan on buying the boxes, but not the books (I'll leave the books, other than the Bestiary, to my players) as I could give a crabs-leg what they put in the books at this point if it's not new material.

jh

RabidWookie said:

No. It won't affect the stuff I already bought, and it won't make me want to repurchase it because it came in a different package. I have the components. I have the rules.

If there is something new in there, that requires me to repurchase material to get to it, then I will be miffed. But as it stands now, it's all the same stuff I already own.

If someone else can get it cheaper than I did, then good for them (of course, I got the core for $60 which changes things and I doubt you will see that kind of discount on any of those products). They traded in a year of good gaming for some hardbound books that are organized better.

So, maybe I'm just thicked skinned, or maybe I don't have a false sense of entitlement as a consumer. Either they pump out a good product and I buy it, or they don't and I move on. I may be disappointed in a change, but offensive? That's a bit much.

Doc, the Weasel said:

I'm fine with the books containing all of the content from the supplements; that wouldn't obsolete the supplements, as the supplements would still contain components that aren't available anywhere else (action cards, etc.). I will be angry if the Vaults contain all of the components from the supplements, because my existing supplements would be obsoleted only a few months after release. And yes, obsoleted is the correct term, because the supplements would be inferior in quality as well as more expensive. You keep bringing up the point that there's nothing new in the Guide/Vault model, but you're discounting the fact that the Guides will have vastly superior rules organization and layout; that is new content, as it will allow players to quickly and easily reference game material (something they cannot do now). Perhaps it's "a false sense of entitlement" that leads to my belief that RPG products shouldn't be obsoleted a couple months after they are released, or maybe I just have higher standards for my purchases.

By your logic, you shouldn't be miffed if the Guides/Vaults contain new information. After all, you got a year's worth of gaming out of your existing stuff, and either you'll fork out for the Guides/Vaults or you'll be disappointed and won't. Being offended is a bit much, right?

Emirikol said:

No, I'm hoping that the Vaults don't contain the material from Winds of Magic, Signs of Faith, and the Adventurer's Toolkit so that those supplements will not become obsoleted only months after their release. It's not about feeling better about my past purchases; it's about knowing that if I buy a new release from FFG that it won't be replaced by something better two months later. It would mean FFG is lying to their customers by touting the Core Set as the best value, and I don't buy products from companies I can't trust. If I continue playing WFRP3, I'll buy the books (to have reference volumes for the cards) and the Creature's Vault, skipping the Player's and GM's Vaults since they'd only be containing stuff I already own from the Core Set.

RabidWookie said:

I think it is clear that though the guides are going to have all the data from the cards up to including signs of faith the vaults are only going to contain the cards from the core set. It is not in FFG interests to include all the cards in the vaults, the sheer number of these in terms of spells alone from the two magic supplements just does not stack up with the pricing to make this a possibility. FFG still want people to buy supplements. If the guides draw in more GMs who may not be interested in the card idea and allow players to have their own rule set then that’s all good to me. Then if they change their minds and want to have the cards they can just buy the vaults rather than having to buy a core set, they would still have to buy the supplements if they want those cards, all good sales for FFG.
Those of us with all the stuff so far can simply ignore the GM and player vaults and pick up the HB books if we like. No drama no fuss.

I was just reading up on the FFG forums' statistics: WFRP doesn't even come in the top 10 for numbers of players registered. I'm hoping that these future releases are also an attempt to rectify that situation.

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_comunidad_stats.asp

Amketch said:

I hope you are correct.

Doc, the Weasel said:

That's a good, and valid, analogy. But I can still understand how it might feel like the early supporters, who stood by the game and kept it going, might feel a little burned. It's not a model we typically see in the tabletop games market, and when the contents are so tangible (as opposed to software), perhaps the feeling is more pointed.