I know most Arkham players find that killing the Ancient one, and gearing up to do so, not "the right way to win." While 90% of the time I try to win by sealing gates, sometimes the idea of just going up against a big monster with several investigators is fun! But all I seem to see is players putting this method down. So how can you make this more fun? Obviously the Epic Plot cards make it a little more interesting... but what else can you do? Limit how many clue tokens each investigator can spend per turn? Add an extra "fraction" to each doom token (place 1 stamina on each doom token) to make it tougher? There must be some way to make the killing of an ancient one feel awesome and a like a real battle.

Currently best answer is indeed, "Epic Battle" from the Kingsport expansion. Sure there are rules you could add to make the battle harder, but Epic Battle also injects an element of unpredictability, and that translates into suspense.

Here is how I play final combat:

1. Like money, investigators cannot gain clues whatsoever during final combat. Mostly this is insurance against Nyarlathotep, who finds himself being screwed into oblivion by many expansion components. But also, in particular, this prevents the already comparatively weak base-game AOs from being further weakened by the players having more clues to spend on their defense checks.
2. Each investigator may not spend more clues during a given round of final combat than there are seals on the board. The point of this one is mainly to prevent Joe Diamond from grabbing a shotgun and a boatload of clues, and then ignoring his responsibility to seal entirely. Also, this gives most of the base-game AOs a bit of a boost because they all require defense checks, where none of the other AOs do.
3. Shuffle red Epic Battle cards. Place "End of Everything" on the bottom and place the green "Sinister Plot" on the top. Shuffle the seven remaining green cards and place one facedown on top of that stack for every seal on the board. Finally, instead of drawing the top card, roll a die and draw that numbered card off the top. This way, rather than seeing all 8 green cards before seeing any red, the players will see a mix, with reds getting more frequent as the battle goes on. This, of course, also rewards players for sealing and punishes them for gearing up too early.

Nicely listed, Tibs. I still hate that first one, but I know you do too, so it's all good.

I think the general aversion that some of us AH grognards have towards the Final Battle is more philosophical in nature. When we first started, I'm sure a lot of us loved the Final Battle. But as time passed, and we got better at winning by dissecting every game aspect that was dissectable, some of us got a bit disenchanted by the idea that a well-prepared Joe could actually beat Cthulhu with one good blast from a Shotgun. Yig became a joke. Hastur became an exercise in monster combat and Terror Track management while waiting for too many Gates to be open to ensure a -0 Modifier. All of these were perfectly justified wins, and (as with most forums) to the victors go the bragging rights.

I know I never really appreciated a "most victories" competition infecting the best cooperative game I've ever played, and eventually I'm sure others agreed, because thus came the backlash: if you aren't playing to seal, you aren't playing "properly". The rationales are many: the most popular being that defeating a Cosmic God with a stick and a gun seems ridiculous in the face of H.P. Lovecraft's literary motif of our insignificance to the universe. And a good many of us never really came back from that, even as FFG stepped up the newer Ancient Ones with attacks that are unrelenting and brutal. (Have you seen some of the newer Ancient Ones? No defense, and you're lucky if you last 3 rounds even with "gearing up".)

When I'm playing with others, I LOVE Final Combat, because it still horrifies my cultists. We did our best to get the Seals, but the Doom Track beat us to it, and now comes frantic mass-cooperation as cards are traded around and strategies and contigencies are set in place for future rounds. (I love it when we are so ill-equipped that someone makes the noble sacrifice to enter round 1 with empty hands, ensuring their own devouring.) If we dare to actually WIN a Final Battle, I'm so freakin' proud of them.

But when I'm playing solo, I'm generally "better" than four separate brains. I know the metagame more than they do: the secrets of gate frequency, which Rumors I can ignore, where I might find advantageous Encounters. If I can't pull off the Seals, I failed at my "job"--well, or the living heart of the game wanted me to suffer --and I will use Epic Battle and the House Rules listed by Tibs in order to challenge my skills to the end. This helps me get the same level of enjoyment out of the Final Battle than when I'm playing with my buddies. But if I win, it's still a win.

If you like Final Battle, with or without Epic cards or House Rules, keep liking it! It's in the manual, it's part of the game. The brilliance of Arkham Horror is its pure customizability: all things to all gamers. If you're digging the game, "the right way to win" shouldn't get in the way.

Welcome to the Carnival, HyeJinx1984! (I liked the "Clothing Drive" Exhibit Mummy. Would make a nice pocket-printout visual reminder.)

I have all the small box expansions, but none of the big ones yet (though dunwich is in the mail and arriving today), so no I haven't seen other AOs. Just so I'm clear, even with gearing up, the new AOs are a pretty decent threat? In that case, I think I'll just institute 2 house rules for playing with classic AOs:

1- No investigator can spend more clue tokens than the number of seals on the board per round.

2-When final battle begins, place a single stamina token on top of each doom token, which counts as needing an additional success.

Would these two rules alone balance it out you think?

HyeJinx1984 said:

www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Quachil_Uttaus

It's hard not to love Quachil Uttaus. -3 modifier, with Magical + Physical Immunity, all Allies discarded at the start of combat. QU's attack, first player devoured, no check, no nothing .

To add my own gripes and thoughts to this thread:

What Tibs suggests is great.... if winning the combat too easily is the problem. But for me, it's not. Please consider the following.... I don't have Kingsport, but I own all the other expansions with AOs in them. I've seperated the AOs into 3 piles:

1. Easy. These AOs are often obliterated in final combat without preperation. Preperation makes these AOs a joke. Against these AOs Tibs' solution works well. AOs: Ithaqua, Yig, Nyarlathotep, Hastur (Total: 4)

2. Medium: Without preperation, these AOs are difficult, but not impossible to win against in final combat. To me, these are the best AO combats, and implementing Tibs' house rules makes these guys too hard. AOs: Glaaki, Shudde Mell, Shub-Niggurath, Abhoth, Cthulu, Bokrug. (Total: 6).

3, Hard: These AOs have final combats that are practically impossible, with or without any amount of preperation. Tibs' house rules dont make much difference, because with or without them, you'll lose. IMO, these are the least fun combats of all. We don't even play them. AOs: Cthuga, Quachil Uttas, Yog Sothoth, Azathoth. Ghantathoa, Zhar, Nyogtha, Rhan-Tegoth, Tsathoggua, Chaugnar Faugn (total 10).

Provided you agree with my groupings of AOs, it's plain to see that the too hard AOs vastly outnumber the too easy ones. Against the "hard" AOs they may as well all be Azathoth. I mean sure, you can go whip out the stats reports and find where someone has beaten Quachil Uttaus once or twice (I've done it once, I think), but realistically speaking, the final combats are unwinnable. I mean, it's like a 96% final combat loss rate against Tsathoggua or something? Why even play? There's no point once he wakes up. So... very sad face on final combat.

That's why I think that maybe Tibs' house rules are a good start... but it actually adresses less than HALF of the problem (of the AO fights being no fun). So... it's not a complete solution, IMO.

All very good advice, lets keep refining this until we have something really workable. Also, total noob question, since there are no "movement points" in final battle, you cannot use the special abilities of tomes huh?

Nope. No time to read tomes while the ancient one is awake

p.s. although I'm not sure if the rules actually mention "no movement points during FC". It does seem a bit strange to exploit this, though, for the reason mentioned above...

"no movement points during final battle" moves Ghatanothoa from "really difficult" (I'd place them alongside Cthulhu in the mid range: like Cthulhu a well-equipped team can beat them with a bit of luck) to "absolutely impossible".

The reason you can't read Tomes in final battle is that you don't get a Movement phase.

Right. You never have time to read during final combat. The only time you ever receive movement points is specifically against Ghatanathoa, and only when you're fleeing to avoid his gaze (his attack). Though I guess this means that you can't use any items that gives you movement points to avoid the gaze, because there is no movement phase.

Hmm. Fair point. But clearly you're supposed to be able to use those items against Ghatanathoa, because otherwise it could just use your speed and be a much less interesting final fight.

But if you can use them, why not Tomes? (Easy but somewhat unsatisfactory answer: all movement point granting items are pre-Innsmouth; they should now read "Movement/AO attacks")

Thing with Ghatanothoa is either, Motorcycle, Map and Ruby are cool or else all investigators die immediately. Why? Because Speed = movement points only in the Movement Phase, which final combat clearly is not.

So Dam you're saying, why would investigators receive movement points from their speed and not from their items? I'll buy that.

What about the Local Guide card? It lowers your Speed by 1 during the movement phase. Would you say this also applies? According to the above, it should. And thematically it should too: it's harder to escape when you're dragging someone around with you.

Tibs said:

I agree Local Guide should lower movement just like the other items should raise them, but let me tell ya...If my tour guide suddenly got sweeped up into some interdimensional battle with a giant face thing, I know I'm not sticking around. I'm getting out of there and calling the touring company for a refund!

DoomTurtle said:

I think according to the rules of plot that guy would be the first to die.

“My word. That thing is quite large.”
“GET OUT OF HERE!”
“Is this part of the tour?”
“RUN, YOU FOOL! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!”
“If this isn’t part of the tour, I should get a refund.”
“WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?!”

jgt7771 said:

::Laughter::

Tourists.